As controversial as it is... Spanish Civil War

[thistle]

I assume that is a joke!

Deflection when trying to justify evil by trying to say someone else was more evil.

Evil is NEVER justified. Franco was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands people through forced labour, executions and concentration camps. NOTHING justifies that and putting up a defence that what he did was acceptable because he defended the Church is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Arkansan]

There’s nothing wrong with executing malefactors.

 

[Ioana]

I mean… Croatia kinda did that. A lot of fasicm is happy to keep cordial relations with Catholicity or even use its influence but actually obey her? Give her own power over her members? Probably not gonna happen.

 

[Ioana]

Ends do not justify the means. Ever.

 

[Ioana]

If I had grown up in Franco’s Spain I probably would not be Catholic now (barring some extraordinary grace). All the stuff about the Gospel, universal Church and love would fly right past my ears and all I would hear is “super right wing politics”, “Franco” and “dictatorship”. Denying a connection is, in my opinion, simply false.

 

[ZMystiCat]

God approved the death penalty in Israel. No reason why Spanish malefactors should be above it.

He also permitted divorce, but Jesus brought us back to the original intent of never separating.

As for the body count under Franco, I’d like to remind American posters and readers that the American government also has blood on its hands

Evil committed by one person or group does not permit another person or group to commit the same evil. Jesus, on numerous occasions, challenged his listeners, “Do not pagans do the same.” We should instead join Jesus in demanding, “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

 

[Augustinian]

If I had grown up in Franco’s Spain I probably would not be Catholic now

Consider the fact that Opus Dei started in Spain and were supporters of Franco, some of their members worked in Spain’s government and the Spanish founder of Opus Dei, Escriva, was canonized as a saint

 

[Arkansan]

Ends do not justify the means. Ever.

Ends are the only thing that justify means (why else would anyone do anything?).

If you’re claiming that the execution of criminals is an intrinsically evil means which cannot be justified, you’ll need to support that claim.

If I had grown up in Franco’s Spain I probably would not be Catholic now (barring some extraordinary grace). All the stuff about the Gospel, universal Church and love would fly right past my ears and all I would hear is “super right wing politics”, “Franco” and “dictatorship”. Denying a connection is, in my opinion, simply false.

I can’t speak to anecdotal hypotheticals. As far as the objective facts are concerned, Spanish Catholicism was doing great under Franco, and collapsed after democracy was instituted.

 

[Arkansan]

Arkansan:

God approved the death penalty in Israel. No reason why Spanish malefactors should be above it.

He also permitted divorce, but Jesus brought us back to the original intent of never separating.

Jesus abolished total divorce (i.e. ending a marriage such that a new one could be contracted). Separation is still allowed for grave reasons. Likewise, it is sometimes necessary to separate evildoers from society, permanently.

 

[AlNg]

The rich corporations manipulate and brainwash the masses to vote for policies they want. The rich also purchase political office. The result is a dictatorship cloaked in democracy.

Does that mean that the USA is a dictatorship cloaked in democracy ?

 

[ZMystiCat]

Ends are the only thing that justify means (why else would anyone do anything?).

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph 1753:

A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).

So to say or imply that the “ends justify means” is to go specifically against Catholic teaching.

If you’re claiming that the execution of criminals is an intrinsically evil means which cannot be justified, you’ll need to support that claim.

The Church does permit the death penalty, so it is not so intrinsically evil as to completely forbid. However, the standards for it are incredibly high, as CCC 2267 states:

…the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means…

Today, in fact…the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

Basically, it’s allowed, but you’d have to make a very strong case for doing it. Either way, taking a flippant “sometimes people need to die” approach is certainly against the spirit of all Catholic teaching on the value of life.

Jesus abolished total divorce (i.e. ending a marriage such that a new one could be contracted). Separation is still allowed for grave reasons. Likewise, it is sometimes necessary to separate evildoers from society, permanently.

OK, I wasn’t really careful with my wording. Still, God permitted divorce under Israel, but He no longer permits it, so your defense of God doing it in Israel has no leg to stand on, especially when Jesus Himself once saved a woman from the death penalty despite it being commanded under law.

 

[AlNg]

I have no doubt Jesus wouldn’t be a fan of violence.

Should Catholics follow Jesus, the Son of God, who said to turn the other cheek?

 

[ZMystiCat]

Does that mean that the USA is a dictatorship cloaked in democracy ?

There are arguments that the U.S. is closer to an oligarchy, where the “few” are those who can afford a lot of lobbying and major political donations. There’s also the possibility that they’ll threaten to leave and take all the jobs and money with them, making local politicians more likely to bend to their will.

 

[AlNg]

There are arguments that the U.S. is closer to an oligarchy, where the “few” are those who can afford a lot of lobbying and major political donations.

Yes. I have read arguments like this in communist publications.

 

[thistle]

Ends are the only thing that justify means (why else would anyone do anything?).

If you’re claiming that the execution of criminals is an intrinsically evil means which cannot be justified, you’ll need to support that claim.

It is Church doctrine that the ends do not justify the means. As a Catholic you should know that.

Also, if you are telling me that the 400,000 plus that died under Franco were criminals you really are naive!

 

[Arkansan]

Ends are the only things that can justify means (if you disagree then you shouldn’t do anything, at all).

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2001.htm#article1

If the claim is that the particular means under discussion are intrinsically evil, then the burden of demonstration is on those asserting that.

Most of those killed died during the war. There were also people executed for their crimes after the fact, just as there were after WWII. No one has produced any evidence that the Franco regime went around randomly killing people.

 

[Ioana]

I can’t speak to anecdotal hypotheticals. As far as the objective facts are concerned, Spanish Catholicism was doing great under Franco, and collapsed after democracy was instituted.

Why was this collapse? To me, the reason seems to be the following: during Franco people felt forced into attending and associated the Church with a regime they did not like. When the regime was gone they threw out the Church with it. It seems logical enough.

 

[Ioana]

CCC 2267. and CCC 1753.

 

[giuseppe96]

Hitler and Mussolini both had plans to overthrow the Church. In fact, the Nazis has a plan to kidnap and execute the holy father Pius XII.

 

[Arkansan]

Arkansan:

I can’t speak to anecdotal hypotheticals. As far as the objective facts are concerned, Spanish Catholicism was doing great under Franco, and collapsed after democracy was instituted.

Why was this collapse? To me, the reason seems to be the following: during Franco people felt forced into attending and associated the Church with a regime they did not like. When the regime was gone they threw out the Church with it. It seems logical enough.

Why did the dog die? To me, the reason seems to be the following: while dog food was provided he felt forced into living and associated life with food he didn’t like. When the food was gone he threw out life with it. It seems logical enough.