As Todd Requested...LDS Teachings God was once a Man

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A. Mormons believe God was once a man
B. Mormons believe God was never sinful.
Correct in those two statements.

Since Jesus was perfect, and yet is believed by Catholics (if I have understood correctly) to be “fully man” meaning He was a man and yet was God the Son as Man of holiness, then why is it not rationale and reasonable to believe that His Father lived as “once a man” who was also Man of holiness and perfectly perfect when He lived “as a man”? (Not saying any Catholic will agree with the belief, at all, but as far as it being within the realm of “reason” then I don’t see why it can’t be viewed as a reasonable belief, other than our not being able to understand a dimension where time ceases to have the limits we place on it.)
 
Thanks for clearing that up.
  1. Don’t know much about Apostolic Christianity and Catholicism, do ya?
  2. How 'bout after? Just curious.
Mark A,
  1. With all the accusations I have read on this website where it seemed that the Catholics so accusing were also saying Christ was not the Son of the Father in the flesh, then I had come to believe that is not commonly believed by Catholics, since I thought they were experts who were presenting Catholic teachings on the subject.
  2. I think Matthew 1:25 answers that question in a very matter-of-fact yet scriptural way, and that does not diminish the specialness of Mary at all when Matthew writes the words “knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son.” This is not conjecture. It is simple to understand from that verse.
I think Mary and Joseph had a loving, normal married relationship as a married couple and the “knowing” part began after the birth of Jesus and after a normal waiting period after the birth of a child.
 
A Catholic says that Mormons believe God was once a sinful man; it is based on reason.
A. Mormons believe God was once a man
B. Man is sinful
Therefore God was once a sinful man.

Your response seems to be:
A. Mormons believe God was once a man
B. Mormons believe God was never sinful
Therefore _________________(run away and quote the catechism)

My question would be: How does the Mormon Church fill in the blank?
Stephen,
In my responses prior to this topic, I have always answered the question with, NO GOD WAS NOT SINFUL.
Now, if people tell you what they believe, and you cannot refute it with clear and explicit official doctrine, then it appears you are an accuser repeating ‘false accusations’ driven by impure motives. Clearly a lack of charity by the accusers is present.

Now, let’s review your logic.
Your accusation that “LDS must believe God was sinful” is based on ‘your logic’ that all men are sinful so God must have been sinful. Since you also know Jesus was man and was not sinful, you have a known faulty premise yet you have persisted in the argument, for its slander value. Strike 2 on charity.

My mentioning of Catholic doctrine (‘man will become God’ from catechism) was not intended to divert the discussion.
It was provided as a tangible Catholic example that what a faith believes cannot be determined by an outsider from a few words. I still stand by my logic in interpreting them but acknowledge the final meaning is your decision and my logic is irrelevant. We only ask the same courtesy. Strike 3 on charity.

Obviously, if the LDS believed your statement, you would have found 100’s of quotes from leaders expanding on the sinful nature of God.
 
That Mary was a virgin when she both conceived and when she gave birth to Jesus Christ, is attested plainly in the Book of Mormon, in no uncertain terms.
What you meant to say was other than by Apostle Bruce McConkie and the and prophet Joseph F. Smith, the latter of whom plead guilty to being a polygamist *after *the church allegedly gave it up.
 
Stephen,
In my responses prior to this topic, I have always answered the question with, NO GOD WAS NOT SINFUL.
Now, if people tell you what they believe, and you cannot refute it with clear and explicit official doctrine, then it appears you are an accuser repeating ‘false accusations’ driven by impure motives. Clearly a lack of charity by the accusers is present.
You’re right here; in Mormon theology, mankind is not inherently sinful because the souls that fought on the side of God in the fictional premortal existance are the only ones given bodies (this actually means *white *bodies; the less valiant, the seed of Cain are given black bodies). Since Mormonism thus redefines the nature of mankind, it necessitates a similar redefinition of the role of the savior, thus diminishing his power and authority and relegating him to the position of mascot, a clown who advertises exaltation on television like Billy Mays.

That is the unfortunate truth of the matter, Todd.
 
  1. I think Matthew 1:25 answers that question in a very matter-of-fact yet scriptural way, and that does not diminish the specialness of Mary at all when Matthew writes the words “knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son.” This is not conjecture. It is simple to understand from that verse.
I think Mary and Joseph had a loving, normal married relationship as a married couple and the “knowing” part began after the birth of Jesus and after a normal waiting period after the birth of a child.
I think it’s funny how this part of the Bible is correct when it suits your purposes, Parker, but I agree here; Mary was a virgin until after Jesus was born, at which point, Joseph and Mary consumated their marriage, producing six another children.
 
Lax16,
Good day to you. I assume you may have not edited and intended the statement you made in your sentence before the questions.

Thank you for catching my error, Parker. You and Diana are wonderful proofreaders!

Here is a link that provides some of the scriptural background for the answers to your questions:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c66197a7c1d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

**Thank you for the link. It seems to me that the early Church had some interesting ideas about our spiritual side. However, the jump that God joined with Heavenly Mother is not referenced as far as I can see. I do not see that idea supported by scripture or by early Church writings. Do you? **

There are a few teachings in the Book of Mormon about pre-mortal life, but mostly in the Bible and in the Pearl of Great Price. Mormons believe that the “sons of God” who shouted for joy as described in Job 38:7 were faithful spirits who included more than the FirstBorn, Jehovah.
Does that makes us the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ? If so, then what makes Jesus Christ divine and us, only human?
Is the Pearl of Great Price considered doctrine? (I should know this by now, I know!)😃
 
Your response seems to be:
A. Mormons believe God was once a man
B. Mormons believe God was never sinful
Therefore _________________(run away and quote the catechism)

My question would be: How does the Mormon Church fill in the blank?
Correct in those two statements.

Since Jesus was perfect, and yet is believed by Catholics (if I have understood correctly) to be “fully man” meaning He was a man and yet was God the Son as Man of holiness, then why is it not rationale and reasonable to believe that His Father lived as “once a man” who was also Man of holiness and perfectly perfect when He lived “as a man”? (Not saying any Catholic will agree with the belief, at all, but as far as it being within the realm of “reason” then I don’t see why it can’t be viewed as a reasonable belief, other than our not being able to understand a dimension where time ceases to have the limits we place on it.)
As I predicted, Catholics believe blah, blah, blah which is not what Catholics believe and doesn’t answer the question (doesn’t fill in the blank.)
Stephen,
In my responses prior to this topic, I have always answered the question with, NO GOD WAS NOT SINFUL.
Now, if people tell you what they believe, and you cannot refute it with clear and explicit official doctrine, then it appears you are an accuser repeating ‘false accusations’ driven by impure motives. Clearly a lack of charity by the accusers is present.

Now, let’s review your logic.
Your accusation that “LDS must believe God was sinful” is based on ‘your logic’ that all men are sinful so God must have been sinful. Since you also know Jesus was man and was not sinful, you have a known faulty premise yet you have persisted in the argument, for its slander value. Strike 2 on charity.
Catholics believe blah, blah, blah which is not what Catholics believe and doesn’t answer the question (doesn’t fill in the blank.)
My mentioning of Catholic doctrine (‘man will become God’ from catechism) was not intended to divert the discussion.
It was provided as a tangible Catholic example that what a faith believes cannot be determined by an outsider from a few words. I still stand by my logic in interpreting them but acknowledge the final meaning is your decision and my logic is irrelevant. We only ask the same courtesy. Strike 3 on charity.
And you continue to use a diversion instead of answering the question. Strike two
Obviously, if the LDS believed your statement, you would have found 100’s of quotes from leaders expanding on the sinful nature of God.
As I said before.
The Catholic Church belief system is based on faith and reason. The Mormon Church is based on faith. When a Catholic asks the Mormon to reason, the Mormon comes up short.
You still didn’t answer the question. Strike three
 
Isn’t that what the name change to “The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints is all about”?
Well, the LDS have gone through a few name changes at the very beginning.
However, I am happy that they love and follow Jesus Christ. That is not my point.
The point is that in his First Vision Joseph Smith recounts the following:
(from Mormon History.com)

Joseph Smith’s faith in God was strong, and he went one day early in the spring of 1820, to pray to God in order to know which church he should join and how he could obtain forgiveness of his sins, which troubled him.

What happened can best be told in Joseph Smith’s own words:

After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! **My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, **which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. (JSH 1:15-20)

If all of the Christian sects were “wrong and JS was not to joint any of them because all existing churches were an abomination in the sight of the Lord” and he was actually forbidden to join any of them…wouldn’t it make sense to start a whole new church with a whole new set of beliefs and a whole new name and not tie in to the already existing horrible ones?
Obviously, the ones that were in existence had already been calling themselves Christians for 1,800+ years and they already defined what Christianity meant…so I think it belongs to the Christian Church pre-Mormonism. I say the Mormons need to come up with their own term since they believe the existing churches were all an abomination.
 
As I predicted, Catholics believe blah, blah, blah which is not what Catholics believe and doesn’t answer the question (doesn’t fill in the blank.)

Catholics believe blah, blah, blah which is not what Catholics believe and doesn’t answer the question (doesn’t fill in the blank.)

And you continue to use a diversion instead of answering the question. Strike two

As I said before. You still didn’t answer the question. Strike three
God is not sinful, BECAUSE GOD IS NOT SINFUL
Your question was answered, and you ignored it. :banghead:

I Pray for You!
:gopray: :highprayer: :gopray2:
 
God is not sinful, BECAUSE GOD IS NOT SINFUL
Your question was answered, and you ignored it. :banghead:

I Pray for You!
:gopray: :highprayer: :gopray2:
Hi Todd - How are God and man different?
How are they the same?
(Please use LDS references)
 
Hi Todd - How are God and man different?
How are they the same?
(Please use LDS references)
Well, let’s revert back to Jesus who was fully divine and fully human, and was not sinful.

As stated from the beginning of this thread, please provide evidence (not your faulty logic) that supports your accusation the LDS faith teaches God was sinful.

As mentioned above, if the LDS faith believed God was sinful, it would have been articulated and expanded upon in 100’s of talks by church leaders.
 
In Mark 6:3, we find Jesus teaching in the temple and the people are talking about him, saying “That Jesus, Mary’s son, right? The brother of James, Joses, Juda, Simon, and the two unnamed sisters, right? What does he know about the things of God?”

We have all of his brothers named and in the Greek text, ‘brother’ comes from adelphos, which always means brother or brotherhood, but explanations run from these men being his cousins, his neighbors, or sometimes Joseph’s kids from a previous marriage.

The reason for this is to maintain the teaching that Mary was eternally a virgin, which she clearly wasn’t. This, in no way, dimishes Jesus’ nature or Mary’s contribution to the larger plan of salvation.
 
Well, let’s revert back to Jesus who was fully divine and fully human, and was not sinful.

As stated from the beginning of this thread, please provide evidence (not your faulty logic) that supports your accusation the LDS faith teaches God was sinful.

As mentioned above, if the LDS faith believed God was sinful, it would have been articulated and expanded upon in 100’s of talks by church leaders.
Uhhh…what???
I am asking questions that you didn’t answer.
I never said that the LDS faith teaches God was sinful.
Where did I use faulty logic?
 
Someone needs to look up the meaning of the word “slander”.

I think they also need to find a new buzz word.
Well, if you can’t make them believe your version of the facts to be real, put them on ignore. That’ll teach them, right?
 
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parkerd:
I was pleasantly surprised one day when someone responded on an older thread that showed that some Catholics believe that Jesus is actually the Son of Heavenly Father, and grew inside of Mary’s womb through a miraculous (as I would agree) way that God knew about but that we don’t know of its details. That Mary was a virgin when she both conceived and when she gave birth to Jesus Christ, is attested plainly in the Book of Mormon, in no uncertain terms
Don’t know much about Apostolic Christianity and Catholicism, do ya?
I find his being “pleasantly surprised” by these two teachings hard to believe since he seems quite familiar with that “abomination” the Nicene Creed where both are clearly stated. Quite frankly the level of ignorance shown in the statement and the amount of time spent on this board belie the the claim of seeking understanding.
 
Uhhh…what???
I am asking questions that you didn’t answer.
I never said that the LDS faith teaches God was sinful.
Where did I use faulty logic?
The purpose of this thread was the purpoted LDS belief that God was a sinful man.
If you were introducing new questions, I apologize for missing them.

I decline to compare man and God since is smells like baiting to me, lo siento
 
In Mark 6:3, we find Jesus teaching in the temple and the people are talking about him, saying “That Jesus, Mary’s son, right? The brother of James, Joses, Juda, Simon, and the two unnamed sisters, right? What does he know about the things of God?”

We have all of his brothers named and in the Greek text, ‘brother’ comes from adelphos, which always means brother or brotherhood, but explanations run from these men being his cousins, his neighbors, or sometimes Joseph’s kids from a previous marriage.

The reason for this is to maintain the teaching that Mary was eternally a virgin, which she clearly wasn’t. This, in no way, dimishes Jesus’ nature or Mary’s contribution to the larger plan of salvation.
Returning Home - Thank you for your response. I have a couple of things to say, but am afraid to be off topic. I am tempted to start a new thread…

In Numbers 30, it is clear that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of.

Have you read St. Jerome on The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary vs. Heludius (380 A.D.)? What are your thoughts?

In the many approved apparitions of Mary, she is called the Virgin Mary. Why would this be? (for example, The Virgin of Guadalupe)

I can start a new thread if it seems like this might turn into an interesting conversation!🙂
 
The purpose of this thread was the purpoted LDS belief that God was a sinful man.
If you were introducing new questions, I apologize for missing them.

I decline to compare man and God since is smells like baiting to me, lo siento
No, it is not baiting. I was asking for LDS references on the matter, not your opinion.
 
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