Ask A Baptist Pastor

[MarkInOregon]

The Catholic and Orthodox churches share a common ancestry - common church fathers, so it comes as no surprise that they arrive at some of the same conclusions. The Orthodox view of Theotokos while in some ways similar to the Roman view, are not in practice the same. But yes, I find it interesting to say the least that something that was supposedly universally accepted had to be codified at the Council of Trent, which led to further expansion of the authority of tradition.

I’d still like to know, was Martin Luther at fault for the reformation?

Partly. Any organization run by sinful men (we are all sinful wouldn’t you agree) will at times find itself in need of reform–as its practice may stray from its teaching. However, that fact that men may fail to live up to their beliefs (I believe thats called sinning and we all do it) from time to time does not invalidate the truth of those beliefs.

Martin Luthers guilt lies in the fact that he allowed his pride to get the better of him. Rather than continuing to call for and work for the needed reforms in Church practice (as opposed to Church teaching) he decided to start something new.

The pride of men is responsible for the reformation. It is responsible for many of our ills today.

 

[Byzman]

Lots of places. Mt 28, is one example.

Yeah, they are heretics.

No, without the Council of Nicea and the First Council of Constantinople, you would have no concept of the Trinity.

As for the Oneness Pentecostals, whom my best friend is a part of, they beleive that God is only one person, and they too can claim to prove from the Bible. Goes to show that you need an outside source of infalliable authority to correctly interpret Scripture.

 

[jmcrae]

So are you saying that Satan can only tempt one person at a time?

This would certainly be a necessary consequence of believing that created beings can only experience time sequentially, and that the experience of Eternity is reserved to God alone. Yet we see that Satan tempts every one of us, more than once a day. Does Satan have god-like powers?

 

[reformissionary]

So are you saying that Satan can only tempt one person at a time?

No. He doesn’t work alone.

 

[jmcrae]

Yeah, they are heretics.

They use the same method of Scripture interpretation that you do. How is it that they became heretics, but you were somehow protected from error, and did not?

 

[Byzman]

No. He doesn’t work alone.

But it all stems from one. Are you saying that there is a devil for every man on this earth?

 

[reformissionary]

But it all stems from one. Are you saying that there is a devil for every man on this earth?

Do you seriously have no biblical understanding of Satan and the demons? 1/3 of the angels fell and all that? Satan is the head of demons.

 

[Byzman]

This would certainly be a necessary consequence of believing that created beings can only experience time sequentially, and that the experience of Eternity is reserved to God alone. Yet we see that Satan tempts every one of us, more than once a day. Does Satan have god-like powers?

There is something about being in the spiritual world that is quite different from the material world, which is restricted to material things such as time and space.

 

[reformissionary]

They use the same method of Scripture interpretation that you do. How is it that they became heretics, but you were somehow protected from error, and did not?

Please tell me, what is their method of Scripture interpretation? What is mine?

 

[Byzman]

Do you seriously have no biblical understanding of Satan and the demons? 1/3 of the angels fell and all that? Satan is the head of demons.

I knew you would come back and say 1/3 fell, but that is 1/3 from the angels right? Do we not have a guardian angel for each and every one of us? that would mean according to your logic that 2/3 of the angels are good and are our guadians, that means more people and guardian angels at one time then compared to devils.

 

[Saintlucy]

Not even close. Revelation says there will be a new heavens and new earth on which we will live in resurrected bodies forever. According to this thread we can go anywhere at any time there, since it’s timeless.

Some of those are attributes. Some are not. You don’t get to pick and choose what attributes God gives us in His likeness. One that we don’t get is timelessness. Rev 22:2 is one example of how successive moments will be a necessary part.

This is because at the Second Coming He will come back into time to judge the living (still in time) and the dead.

Rev12: Behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works.

What about women? We won’t be involved because, according to sola scriptura, it says so in the bible.

I thought that Protestants didn’t believe in being saved by works and there it clearly is, spoken of by Christ Himself.

 

[reformissionary]

No, without the Council of Nicea and the First Council of Constantinople, you would have no concept of the Trinity.

Hold on. Stop and think. Where did the council develop their concept of the Trinity? THE SCRIPTURES! I can point to the Trinity completely and fully from the Scriptures. The councils simply recognized what God said in Scripture.

As for the Oneness Pentecostals, whom my best friend is a part of, they beleive that God is only one person, and they too can claim to prove from the Bible. Goes to show that you need an outside source of infalliable authority to correctly interpret Scripture.

So answer this for me. Can you prove as equally true, from the Scriptures, both Oneness Pentecostal teaching and Trinitarian theology?

 

[Byzman]

Please tell me, what is their method of Scripture interpretation? What is mine?

Well, believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding you into interpreting it correctly? is this not everyone’s opinion? Even the Catholic Church says this about how we interpret Scripture?

 

[reformissionary]

This is because at the Second Coming He will come back into time to judge the living (still in time) and the dead.

Rev12: Behold, I come quickly: and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works.

What about women? We won’t be involved because, according to sola scriptura, it says so in the bible.

I thought that Protestants didn’t believe in being saved by works and there it clearly is, spoken of by Christ Himself.

What are you talking about? How is that even on the topic I was talking about?

 

[jmcrae]

Please tell me, what is their method of Scripture interpretation? What is mine?

To read the text alone in their room, pray to the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning, and then assume that the next thought that comes into their mind is the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to them - in the context of the a priori assumptions made by their particular brand of theology - or as Patty Bonds calls it, their list of "We know"s - of course!

 

[Byzman]

Hold on. Stop and think. Where did the council develop their concept of the Trinity? THE SCRIPTURES! I can point to the Trinity completely and fully from the Scriptures. The councils simply recognized what God said in Scripture.

So answer this for me. Can you prove as equally true, from the Scriptures, both Oneness Pentecostal teaching and Trinitarian theology?

Yes they used Scripture, the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit in interpreting Scripture correctly, but they also used what was handed down to them in Faith.

I am not saying that they can prove Oneness Pentecostalism from Scripture, but that they like others, Arians, use Scripture to distort their beliefs. Which is why you need a source of infalliable authority to keep people on the right path.

 

[reformissionary]

Well, believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding you into interpreting it correctly? is this not everyone’s opinion? Even the Catholic Church says this about how we interpret Scripture?

No. Of course we need the Holy Spirit to understand the spiritual. But we can interpret it through historical means, grammatical means, and get to the meaning of the text. It’s not the Bible code or filled with mysical powers, you know. It’s written that we can read and understand words, sentences and meanings.

 

[Betterave]

I have no idea what you are intending to say by this.

Do you claim to have some idea what Peter meant to say by it??
(I was intending to say that your view that saints don’t partake of the divine nature - are simply stuck with human limitations and therefore can’t handle all our petitions - obviously contradicts scripture.)

Here’s what you wrote…
Originally Posted by reformissionary

That’s key to my rejection of Catholicism. You believe in contradictions. And not just any contradictions, but ones that unwittingly deify humanity. These aren’t mere difficulties, not merely hard passages in Scripture…but clear contradictions and ontological impossibilities. We know what God says about humans and our limitations. We know what God says about Himself and his infinite power and pervasive presence. If you don’t keep those separated you will create false teaching. Hence, Marianism.

…=and Peter’s God-breathed response:
By whom * he has given us most great and precious promises: that by these you * may be made partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1, 4)**

 

[Byzman]

No. Of course we need the Holy Spirit to understand the spiritual. But we can interpret it through historical means, grammatical means, and get to the meaning of the text. It’s not the Bible code or filled with mysical powers, you know. It’s written that we can read and understand words, sentences and meanings.

Yes, these historical means is through the unchanging, and non-contradicting beliefs of the Church. It can mean one thing then, and something else now.

 

[jmcrae]

Hold on. Stop and think. Where did the council develop their concept of the Trinity? THE SCRIPTURES!

The Council of Nicea took place in 325 AD, which is 80 years before we had a New Testament. They got it from the Holy Tradition; not from the Bible.

I can point to the Trinity completely and fully from the Scriptures. The councils simply recognized what God said in Scripture.

Actually, no - they provided the Nicene Creed, which was one of the documents used by the Councils of Hippo and Carthage to discern which writings should be included in the Scriptures.

So answer this for me. Can you prove as equally true, from the Scriptures, both Oneness Pentecostal teaching and Trinitarian theology?

Here’s a challenge for you, if you’re up to it - go to a Oneness Pentecostal forum and ask them for their Biblical evidence that there is no Trinity. They can do a much better job of showing how they arrive at their beliefs than we ever will.