Ask A Baptist Pastor

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That’s key to my rejection of Catholicism. You believe in contradictions.
No, we just have a “both/and” mentality, rather than the “either/or” mentality of Modern American Evangelicalism. It also requires that one embrace the presence of mystery in our religion, especially when one encounters something around which one has trouble wrapping the human brain,.
And not just any contradictions, but ones that unwittingly deify humanity. These aren’t mere difficulties, not merely hard passages in Scripture…but clear contradictions and ontological impossibilities.
It is not unwititng at all. We have received the TEaching of the Apostles that Jesus took on human nature to make it possible for us to partake of the divine nature. In the East, this is called Theosis, in your parlance, it is more likely to be understood as being transformed daily into the image of Christ.

It is not an ontological change, though. We become by grace what we do not have by nature, His Divinity.
We know what God says about humans and our limitations. We know what God says about Himself and his infinite power and pervasive presence. If you don’t keep those separated you will create false teaching. Hence, Marianism.
You have inherited a faulty view of human nature, and the nature of salvation from your spiritual ancestors. I can see how it is not possible for you to draw any other conclusion than this. It is a false conclusion based upon a false premise.

God wants to redeem all of us, and to fulfill Himself in our lives as He has Mary, His Mother. He wants all of us to “magnify” Him, by acting as a reflection through which He is visible to the world.
 
How can they hear everyone from around the world at the same time? How can they possibly bring all those petitions to Jesus? You are giving them attributes that are only of God. Not even Satan can be given those.
Our lack of understanding of how communication takes place in the heavenly realm does not place limitations on what God can do. The Saints can hear whatever He allows them to hear.

Question, by whose power did Samuel appear to Saul after his death?

By what power did Samuel know what was going on here on earth?

How did Moses and Elijah know about Jesus upcoming crucifixion?
 
Hold on. Stop and think. Where did the council develop their concept of the Trinity? THE SCRIPTURES! I can point to the Trinity completely and fully from the Scriptures. The councils simply recognized what God said in Scripture.
We can certainly see the Trinity in scripture, especially if we approach the reading of it with the Apostolic Teaching already in mind, which the Oneness P’s do not. However, many of the Scriptures were still under debate at the time the Church ruled on the Trinity. Their pronouncement, like that of the hypostatic union, was based upon Sacred Tradition, just like the canon.

Yes, the councils did recognize what was in the Scripture, they knew it was scripture because it was consistent with the Teaching they had received. The two were never meant to be separated.

Whenver they are, error results, as we see in the Oneness movement. The Mormons also support their view of Christ, which is separated from what the Aposltes. taught.
So answer this for me. Can you prove as equally true, from the Scriptures, both Oneness Pentecostal teaching and Trinitarian theology?
I think it can be done. HOwever, the scriptures were never intended to be used as “proof texts” according to this modern custom. They bear witness to the faith of the Apostles that is preserved infallible in the Church.
 
Be careful to distinguish between what some “so called catholics” say and what is actually taught by the Magisterium. Stick to what is documented teachings of the Church as contained in the Catechism and you won’t be confused.
As to other discussions - Thes thing only prove the “freedom” that is to be had within The Church.
I just wanted to add to this that very Catholic saint Augustine’s well-known saying:
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas - “unity in necessary things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things”

…And of course we need to know which things are necessary and which are dubious - ergo the need for that living, visible, organized Church authority which is so well-attested in the Bible. 🙂

(I strongly recommend you read Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Steve. It can be found here: newmanreader.org/works/development/index.html and it should only take a few minutes. ;))
While no one here would minimize the errors of persons in the Church that contributed to the Split, there is plenty of blame to go around. This is without even getting into the political aspects that added to the issues. It is my firm belief that, had national politics not gotten involved in the dispute, the Reformation would have been resolved long ago.
Too much to get into here and now…
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Has someone properly refuted this?
This isn’t the first time this link has been posted. Actually, the cited piece is meaningless except that it points to early Church Fathers using words such as ‘figurative’ and ‘symbol’. My previous response is in the attached link.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6588111#post6588111

The problem with the refutation is the author confuses “commemoration” with symbol. That is to say, that Christ commands that we ‘do this in commemoration’ of Him (some bibles use the English translation in ‘memory’ or ‘memorial’. In Jewish culture, to commemorate is a memorial followed by some act in remembrance of God’s particular grace. The commemoration was usually ritualized and most often a meat sacrifice was offered in Temple. This author makes the mistake in believing, conveniently, that ‘commemorate’ means a simple ‘symbol’. After all, we can commemorate a holiday, an occurrence in history, with a meal. The acknowledging Presidents Day with a BIG TURKEY is symbolic in that the Presidents aren’t there, most are dead, and there is nothing can we do except recall the great deeds (or misdeeds) of the Presidents. Thank God, the turkey and dressing are REAL!

As I see it, the second problem with the cited piece is that every time ‘figurative’ or ‘symbol’ is used the object of the word isn’t Christ’s real presence in the Eucharist, e.g. in the quote “The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit” (Clement) the object of ‘figurative’ is the Holy Spirit, not the transubstantiation of bead and meat to Christ. And, of course the “Blood points to the Word of God”, but says nothing of the species of contained in the Eucharist.

It seems to me that non-Catholics have a subjective way of reading Scripture; of course this carries over to the early Church Fathers. It’s my opinion that Protestantism is symptomatic of the H1N1 virus of faith. I liken it to a designer virus attacking right reasoning ever since its introduction by an errant monk. (I’ve recently been convinced that he was pathologically mad – but that’s for another thread).

I define this virus as liberalism; somewhat similar to the political variant of ‘liberalism’. Liberalism holds that there is, as a right, emancipation from Divine Authority proclaiming a sovereignty of will in all sectors of life that control and judge all matters of faith and morals. To satisfy the liberal, God must conform His will to the liberal’s. Liberalism’s true authority resides in the subjective interior of the individual with the power to shut out God’s workings within His own creation. The philosophy proposes that "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself.” At least in part, and perhaps in some cases without realizing it, liberalism denies God with this autonomous freedom, conflicting with the Catholic Church. Once completely overtaken by the disease, the individual finds no ‘right’, no ‘wrong’, all moral and virtue become subjective as well; only that which which feels good becomes good.

Such an autonomous authority requires ‘freedom from’ morals as well as ‘freedom to’ implement a proxy ethic independent of God’s will. As such Scriptures become subjective to the individual and the meaning becomes different for each individual (or from group to group – each is moved by the Spirit – sometimes I wonder which spirit); thus we hear the refrain “one religion is as good as another.” Faith becomes a social construct based on whether or not it feels right, or feels good, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Discipline in faith is exercised less and less; it becomes weedy with passing of time until all discipline in right reasoning is rejected. The fault seems to be that conclusions drawn from the autonomous intellectual is lacking the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church. Judgments become rationalizations without a foundation in an absolute truth that only the Catechism brings. Thus it can be said that liberalism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” (See Link -~Liberalism is a Sin~

Like many viruses found in nature, there is no natural immunity, the body merely becomes accustomed to the profaning pathogen. Each variant of liberalism mutates from simple schismatic sect to complex variants completely void of any vestige of Christianity. There is however a treatment facility, you might say a Divine hospice, which is the Catholic faith.

JoeT
 
I just wanted to add to this that very Catholic saint Augustine’s well-known saying:
In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas - “unity in necessary things; liberty in doubtful things; charity in all things”

…And of course we need to know which things are necessary and which are dubious - ergo the need for that living, visible, organized Church authority which is so well-attested in the Bible. 🙂

(I strongly recommend you read Newman’s Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, Steve.)

👍
Speaking of Augustine, didn’t he also say something to the effect that there is no dispute that can justify schism. I forget the exact quote. 😊
 
In my own neighborhood, there are seven “local bodies of believers” - so, whichever one you happen to belong to has Christ’s authority and protection to give you the correct answer to your problem?

Jehovah’s Witnesses? United Church of Canada? Presbyterians? Anglicans? New Light Fellowship? Apostolic Shepherds Masonic Lodge? Catholic?

You’re probably going to say, “Well, wait a minute - you should first make sure that it’s a Bible-believing church.”

Problem is, all of these organizations claim to be Bible-believing churches, and those who attend them are firmly convinced that they are being taught correct doctrine, there.
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Peace
James
 
The more and more I read threads like this (and perhaps this is just my perspective as a protestant-to-Catholic convert) the more I believe that quote that says, “To be deep in history is to cease being protestant.” 🙂

👍
 
The more and more I read threads like this (and perhaps this is just my perspective as a protestant-to-Catholic convert) the more I believe that quote that says, “To be deep in history is to cease being protestant.” 🙂

👍
Magdalena,
Welcome home! :extrahappy:
May God continue to pour out His abundant blessing upon you.
 
  • I’m the pastor of a Southern Baptist church
  • I mostly preach expositionally through books of the Bible.
  • I’m a blogger at Reformissionary.net.
  • I believe in the** 5 solas** of the reformation: Scripture, faith, grace, in Christ, & for the glory of God.
  • I adhere to the 5 points of Calvinism and believers baptism. I believe in a 2000 year old church, not 500 years.
  • The essentials of the faith, of the truth of God as found in Scripture is what makes us as descendants of the Apostles. It’s not about succession of Popes, but succession of sound doctrine.
I’ve read all your posts on this thread so far. To be transparent,
  • I don’t think you’ve substantively answered the questions put to you. if you say you believe in a 2000 year old Church, then how can you say you believe in Calvin and Protestantism.
  • I would suggest you really DON’T believe in sola scriptura or you’d know that your 1st sola condemns division from the Church. As Paul said to the Church of Rome, watch out for those who cause division. Stay away from them. They don’t serve Our Lord but their own selfish appetites. Who did Proptestants break from? The Church of Rome. And continued in serial division after that.
  • Protestantism isn’t a church, or the church ,or churches in general. The Church is the one Jesus started, not Joe or Jill six pak 1500 years AFTER Jesus. Joe or Jill six pak can’t start a church. To think he/she can is pure fantasy.
reform:
After a lot of recent, intentional interaction with local Catholics through attending their own studies & Mass (which I give significant time to as they are 31% of our local population) I am greatly concerned with much. A few examples…
  1. “Real Presence” teaching of the Eucharist has lead to Eucharolatry. The symbol of Jesus has become an idol and therefore a false Jesus. The real presence of Jesus is with us in the Holy Spirit at the Lord’s Supper and in every place believers go.
For YOU, a Protestant, you’re right about one thing you said. The Eucharist in your assembly can never be the Eucharist. So to do in your assembly what Catholics do at mass would be for you idolotry.You don’t have holy orders, or a valid priesthood. For YOU to worship the real presence of Christ in your communion, WOULD be odolatry.
reform:
  1. Also, Catholics tend to abuse the idea of “mystery” by making it a placeholder for inconsistency and error rather than actual mystery. How God can be three persons and one God at the same time is a true mystery. It isn’t illogical. It’s just beyond our comprehension. The “accidents” of the Eucharist is another example. It’s the “real presence” of Jesus yet it still looks and tastes like bread and wine.
All you’re doing is defining mystery YOUR way and accepting YOUR notion of what is or NOT a mystery, as a Protestant. You say 31% of your assembly is “catholic”. Maybe in name only. If you gave them a quiz you’d see how ignorant they are about the faith they said they were.

God in the flesh the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, who spoke in the beginning and all that is, came into being, was before mankind for 33 years. The way the truth and the life, spoke and taught directly to His disciples in particular and to the unwashed masses in general. The Word of God in the flesh, the ΑΩ, the mystery of ALL time, the one the OT propheside about, was right in front of mankind now, and He started His Church on the 12, with Peter as the head. He gave all His promises to THIS Church which He established and promised to build. The Catholic Church.

Just as people in Jesus day saw the Truth in the flesh, and didn’t recognize the truth when He was standing right in front of them, performing tangable miracles, is it any wonder many people since then still don’t recognize Him and STILL don’t believe? Even by those we call Christian
reform:
  1. Catholics tend to build the most important aspects of the Christian life out of “speculative theology.”
What you mean there is Protestantism.
reform:
For example Marian teaching is not based on clear inspiration from God as found in Scripture. God could have been very clear on the Catholic version of Mary. He didn’t. Yet Catholics keep running with their speculations and making them dogmatic. I’ve found many Catholic women who have a personal relationship with Mary much more significant than with Jesus.
:doh2:for heaven sake!!! Mary is Jesus Mother. That ALONE speaks volumes!!! Jesus had a VERY personal relationship with His mother which means so did the Father and the Holy Spirit. And we are to imitate Jesus in honoring His mother. Jesus didn’t ignore His mother. And either do Catholics. If He dishonored her in anyway, He would have sinned by dishonoring Her… And Jesus can’t sin. If He did, He wouldn’t be God. If we dishonored her in any way WE would sin.

BTW, did Jesus come directly to us? No. Who did Jesus come through to get to us? Mary His mother. When you go through a person to get to others, what do you call the person you go through? Mediator. Femanine form is mediatrix. That’s definition, not speculation

St John told us of this attack on Mary and her son, and who it comes from

17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus… [Rev 12:]

By dishonoring Mary whose bidding are you doing?
 
Speaking of Augustine, didn’t he also say something to the effect that there is no dispute that can justify schism. I forget the exact quote. 😊
there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church (In Ep. ad Tit., iii, 10). Jerome

there can be no just necessity for destroying the unity of the Church" (S. Augustinus, Contra Epistolam Parmeniani, lib. ii., cap. ii., n. 25).
 
I think that the most important thing that I have learned about protestants and protestant belief in opposition to the Catholic Church, is the extreme limitation that protestants would like to place upon Almighty God Himself. Denial of the Real Presence, denial of the Immaculate Conception, denial of the perpetual virginity of Our Blessed Mother, Confession and absolution by a priest ad infinitum. Is Almighty God Himself incapable of mandating these things? Must it be precisely delineated in Scripture for it to be valid? Of course not. I personally believe that most protestant objections to Catholic beliefs and practices are the result of anti-Catholic hatred and bigotry, rather than true theological objection. “If it’s Catholic, I’m against it.” There is no joy in protestantism, too bad. It’s like taking a baloney sandwich to a banquet.
 
This thread is amazing! I honestly have learned so much from both sides, and now I know why I am Catholic!! Thank you for this amazing thread!
 
Dear Baptist Pastor,

I’m just curious. Do you or do you not believe artificial contraception (condoms, etc) to be sinful? I know within Protestantism there are allot of opinions on this. But, lacking any authority, many Protestants still use it. Unfortunately, many “Catholics” do as well.
How do you address artificial contraception to your followers? Does your denomination even have an official stance on it, and how “binding” is that stance?
 
Dear Baptist Pastor,

I’m just curious. Do you or do you not believe artificial contraception (condoms, etc) to be sinful? I know within Protestantism there are allot of opinions on this. But, lacking any authority, many Protestants still use it. Unfortunately, many “Catholics” do as well.
How do you address artificial contraception to your followers? Does your denomination even have an official stance on it, and how “binding” is that stance?
Didn’t expect this one. Should’ve, knowing the Catholic view. 🙂

Artificial contraception is not necessarily sinful. Pulling out is birth control, after all (though a bad one). Abortifacient contraception is sinful, obviously. I don’t know of a denominational word on contraception, but the denomination has no authority over our church.

The problem with contraception is not contraception. Making contraception a sin deals with the superficial instead of the heart. The heart of the issue is God’s calling upon us to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. I’m a huge proponent of larger families and convinced several friends to have children when they selfishly were putting it off. One couple even left our church because of that recommendation (not even mentioning the idea of it being sinful! Just encouraging to start a family).

Hope that gets to your questions.
 
The more and more I read threads like this (and perhaps this is just my perspective as a protestant-to-Catholic convert) the more I believe that quote that says, “To be deep in history is to cease being protestant.” 🙂

👍
And to be deep in Scripture is to cease being Catholic. BOOM! 👍
 
Didn’t expect this one. Should’ve, knowing the Catholic view. 🙂

Artificial contraception is not necessarily sinful. Pulling out is birth control, after all (though a bad one). Abortifacient contraception is sinful, obviously. I don’t know of a denominational word on contraception, but the denomination has no authority over our church.

The problem with contraception is not contraception. Making contraception a sin deals with the superficial instead of the heart. The heart of the issue is God’s calling upon us to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. I’m a huge proponent of larger families and convinced several friends to have children when they selfishly were putting it off. One couple even left our church because of that recommendation (not even mentioning the idea of it being sinful! Just encouraging to start a family).

Hope that gets to your questions.
You do know that ALL Christian churches taught that contraception was sinful prior to 1930, right? It was the Anglicans at their Lambeth Conference that first broke rank. And God struck Onan dead for “pulling out.”

So, were all Christian churches wrong up until that time?
 
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