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rinnie
Guest
Again I believe you are confusing divine knowledge which is natural (God given talent) with divine revelation.
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notself
Guest
I hope the storm did not cause any damage and all were safe in your area. I wish we could have some rain here. The “ancient” oaks are dying throughout the area.Hi, sorry it took me so long, after the storm found myself into the weekend, Weekends seem to last 5 minutes for me. I am so busy after 4 on Friday.
Anyway here is a question, aren’t you sorry you said ask me anythingOkay here is one.
First of all you claim you left the Catholic faith at 19. Do you feel you knew the true Catholic faith? Or do you believe you never knew the faith and just went with the so called flow?
I was raised in a devout family, educated for eight years by the nuns, most of my friends were Catholic. I have the same understanding of the dogma of the Church that my sister has and in some cases I am better informed as to the history of the Church. I have read biographies of many of the Saints. The life of Francis of Assisi is my favorite. I do admit that the words of the Mystics being quoted by Vouthon are new to me but they mirror the mystics of many religions so they are not unique to Catholicism and as you will see in my posts are very close in spirit and in some cases, in meaning to the teachings of Buddhism.
Can you give me an example of what part of the Catholic faith I might have missed?
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notself
Guest
That is the GROUNDMy dear brother/sister Notself
Thank you for your reply!
“…Our essential nature is uncreated, never-born and free in and for itself. It is found in all creatures, but is not restricted to them; it is outside all creatures, but not excluded from them…”
***- The Cloud of Unknowing (14th-century), classic text of Catholic mysticism ***
“…I discovered myself to be nothing but nothing; an unweighable substance; a sea that cannot be sailed…I find that I exist as nothing but nothing…”
- Thomas A. Kempis (c. 1380 – 1471), Catholic monk and mystic
It is not a “space” and it is the deepest aspect of our reality. Some call it the Ground “of the soul” but even this demonstrates that it is deeper than the soul and eventually one goes so deep into this image that there no longer any awarenss of a soul but rather of a state of single-minded oneness beyond all forms - the Image of God. So “soul-like” is not an apt description. It is not eternal since eternity posits “time”, succession in time. Rather it is beyond time and so it is a state devoid of time and place.I would say that ‘it’ (for want of a better word) is not a space but a state. It is inexpressible, ineffable and beyond space/place and time just as (in our eyes) God is inexpressible, ineffable etc. It is beyond all forms, mental images, sensuality, surface personality, emotions, thoughts etc. A person who lives within the Ground is no longer affected by the past nor the future but exists solely in the present moment. He is no longer depressed by bad things, or overjoyed by good things rather he exists in a state of complete detachment from self and all things: in equainimity and in pure, untramelled being. Nothing rocks his inner serenity, even if the world were to be collapsing around him.
The Ground is nameless, so we cannot assign any true name to it which could explain its identity - for it has none.
The Ground is completely empty. But our everyday consciousness is so clouded by emotions and thoughts that we are not aware of it, and thus we don’t recognize it.
When one enters the Ground there are little or even no thoughts. One experiences profound stillness, or calmness. Then emptiness arises.
This is a state of complete unknowing.
And thank you for your description of bhavanga-sota - I have much to think about!
Yes, with the quotes above, I too have much to think about. The above are so close to some suttas on nibbana that it is quite startling. I need to think and do some research.
I am so enjoying your posts.
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rinnie
Guest
See again to me this is double talk.
There is one truth. I AM the way the truth and the life. GOD is truth. Eternal life if truth. Simply because all truth leads to Christ.
In our faith, God put the cards on the table you can say.
He warns us to stay away from this way of thinking.
And yes I agree Christianity seeks eternal life, On that we agree.
By the way you can not have the unconditioned, and eternal life.
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rinnie
Guest
Thats what I am asking you. I am not seeing the close in spirit with the 2 faiths that you are.
Sure there are teaching’s of Christ that Budda may mimic, but everything wth buddhism comes from one self in the end rather you see it or not.
The only Spirit in Catholicism is Christ. The Father the Son and the HOLY SPIRIT. One God. How can a practice of one self be close in Sprit in any case?
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rinnie
Guest
I guess what I am trying to say is this, not that you missed something in your teaching, But what do you do with the teaching that was always taught in the CC, That while we reject nothing that is true, it only reflects of RAY of truth which enlighten all men and women.
Were you not taught that it was you DUTY to proclaim without fail, that Christ is the way the truth and the life. That it is CHRIST who reconciled all things to himself.
What do you think when you hear this scripture which I sure you were taught?
2 Tim 3. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but following thier own desires and insatiable curiosity will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to to the truth and be diverted to myths.
But YOU be self-possessed in all circumstances put up with hardship perform the work of an evangelist FULFILL your ministry.
Were you not taught that it was you DUTY to proclaim without fail, that Christ is the way the truth and the life. That it is CHRIST who reconciled all things to himself.
What do you think when you hear this scripture which I sure you were taught?
2 Tim 3. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but following thier own desires and insatiable curiosity will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to to the truth and be diverted to myths.
But YOU be self-possessed in all circumstances put up with hardship perform the work of an evangelist FULFILL your ministry.
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notself
Guest
rinnie;9557353]Many
How is either the sutta or my wishes for myself and others so contrary to Christianity? Do not Christians believe in showing others loving kindness and living with loving kindness informing all their actions?
Although with some minor changes the Metta Sutta could be turned into a prayer, one could even add the name of Jesus, the Sutta is a teaching, an instruction. It starts out “This is what should be done…”.
The words I use for my meditation are** training tools**. Their purpose is to train my mind in loving kindness towards all who I know or know about. When one thinks towards others with kindness one acts towards them with kindness.
Note that the sutta also speaks of humility, freedom from anger and hatred, honesty, compassion and courage. These concepts are incorporated in the words I use to meditate when I do Metta meditation.
Since Buddhism has no god, one cannot say that I abandoned a true god for a false one.
You are correct that I have been trained in the dogma of the Catholic Church and I realize that according to its teachings, I will end up in hell. However, while you believe that a divine creator exists, I do not.
Dear all, Rinnie’s post above is in response to my post #411
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Vouthon
Guest
My dear brother Bakmoon (I presume that you are a brother?
Sorry if your a lady!)I have never heard of Anapanasti but I am now very eager to find out more. As for detailed instructions of Hesychasm, my knowledge of it is sadly not as thorough as the Western mystics, although I hope that it will eventually be so. I learned much of it simply from reading works such as the “Triads” by Saint Gregory Palamas and the Philokalia - kind of dissaparate sources rather than a single compendium.
TWO great books nonetheless which I would encourage you to buy are “The Mountain of Silence” and “Riding with the Lion”. Its an autobiographical series of accounts by a man who returned to Eastern Orthodoxy after a period of New Age living after visiting Mount Athos and learning Hesychasm directly from the monks. Could you get better than that for a starter? Probably not!
Type them both into Amazon, they are by an author called “Kyriacos Markides”.
Another great book I would encourage you to buy is “Christ the Eternal Tao” by Hiermonk Damscene, a modern Orthodox monk, Hesychast and mystic. After the Enneads, which are beautiful poetry written by Hieromonk Damascene in the style of the Tao te Ching, you will find a small gold-mine of material on Hesychasm ie the breathing techniques and so on that will also be a good starter.
BTW if you discover after this any great books on Hesychasm - let me know! Rossum gave me an excellent link early on in this thread to Hesyxhast practice - perhaps she/he could also help?
That is fasctinating about the lights called Nimitas!
Saint Symeon the New Theologian, in Eastern Catholicism, recorded such experiences with Uncreated Light.
Muslims mystics - Sufis - call the light “Nur” in Arabic; Orthodox “the Tabor Light”; Jewish mystics (Kabbalists) call it in Hebrew “Ohr” and its central to the Kabbalah. In the Western Roman Catholic mystics it is also heavily emphasised and is often called called either, “the Incomprehensible Light”, “the Living Light” or simply “the Light”.
Saint Hildegard of Bingen, a Doctor of the Church in the West, called herself “The Voice of the Living Light”.
Here are descriptions of the “Uncreated Light” from three Western Catholic mystics:
"…When I was 42 years and 7 months old…a blinding light of exceptional brilliance flowed through my entire brain. And so it kindled my whole heart and breast like a flame, not burning but warming… and suddenly I understood the meaning of expositions of the books…Listen to what the never-failing Light declares…The light that I see is not spatial, yet it is far brighter than a cloud surrounding the sun. I cannot discern height or length or breadth in it, and I call it ‘the shadow of the living light’. As the sun, moon and stars appear reflected in water, so too writings, speeches, virtues, and deeds of people are given form and shine out to me in this Light…At one and the same time I see and I hear and I know, and in an instant I learn what I know…The words I see and hear in the light are not like the words that sound from a human mouth, but they are like shooting flame and a cloud moved in clear air…My spirit ascends into the height of the firmament and the shifting air, and it spreads abroad among different peoples though they are in distant regions and places far from me…I do not hear them with my bodily ears, nor with my mind’s thoughts, nor do I perceive them by the use of any of the five senses, but only within, with my outer eyes open, so that I never experience their failure in ecstasy…In the same light, I sometimes, not often, see another light…while I am gazing at it all sadness and all pains are taken from me…I am so changed into a different mode of being that, as I have said, I consign all pain and suffering to forgetfulness…full and inexhaustible…”
- Saint Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179), Catholic mystic and Doctor of the Church
“…In the abyss of this darkness, in which the loving spirit has died to itself, there begin the manifestation of God and eternal life. For in this darkness there shines and is born an incomprehensible Light, which is the Son of God, in Whom we behold eternal life. And in this Light one becomes seeing; and this Divine Light is given to the simple sight of the spirit, where the spirit receives the brightness which is God Himself, above all gifts and every creaturely activity, in the idle emptiness in which the spirit has lost itself through fruitive love, and where it receives without means the brightness of God, and is changed without interruption into that brightness which it receives…”
- Blessed Jan Van Ruysbroek (1293 – 1381), Catholic mystic
“…No one can be saved without divine light. Divine light causes us to begin and to make progress, and it leads us to the summit of perfection. Therefore if you want to begin and to receive this divine light, pray. If you have begun to make progress and want this light to be intensified within you, pray. And if you have reached the summit of perfection, and want to be superillumined so as to remain in that state, pray…I saw a fullness, a brightness with which I felt myself so filled that words fail me, nor can I find anything to compare it with…This embrace of God sets ablaze a fire within the soul with which the whole soul burns for Christ. It also produces a light so great that the soul understands the fullness of God’s goodness, which it experiences in itself, and which is, moreover, much greater than the soul’s experience of it. The effect then of this fire within the soul is to render it certain and secure that Christ is within it. And yet, what we have said is nothing in comparison to what this experience really is…I possessed God so fully that I was no longer in my previous customary state but was led to find a peace in which I was united with God and was content with everything…It (the soul) sees nothing and everything at once. …. The soul, then, experiences and possesses God’s sweetness more from what it does not comprehend than from what it comprehends, more from what it does not see than from what it sees, more from what it does not feel than from what it feels, more, finally, from what it does not know than from what it knows…I find nothing; in the poverty of the Son of God, I find nothing; and in everything that could be named, I find nothing…I did not see love there. I then lost the love which was mine and was made non-love. Afterward, I saw him in a darkness, and in a darkness precisely because the good that he is, is far too great to be conceived or understood…I [knew that] I should forgive everyone who had offended me and strip myself of everything earthly including, all men, women, friends, and relatives, and all other things, such as my possessions; I should even strip away my own self…”
***- Blessed Angela of Foligno (c. 1248 – 1309), Catholic mystic and Franciscan tertiary ***
As you can see for Hildegard the “light” was a kind of enlightenment experience which opened the eyes of her mind to knowledge she had previously not possessed - she becomes almost omnscient, “all-seeing” and rapt into a state beyond earth and place.
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notself
Guest
Are you aware that the Buddha lived approximately 500 years before Christ? Since Buddhism reached Greece and Egypt by the time of Christ, it is quite possible he was mimicking the teachings of the Buddha.
Buddhists do not practice “self”. They practice to see through the construct of self. You may wish to go back a few pages on this thread to see this topic discussed more fully.
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rinnie
Guest
How before Abraham I AM? You said you were Catholic. Do you not realize that God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
So how could Buddha exist before God?
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notself
Guest
How can one have a duty to proclaim what one does not believe?
One could say that it is you that will not tolerate sound teaching but following your own desires, stop listening to the truth and are diverted by myth. I mean no disrespect towards you or your beliefs, but certainly you can see that the above quote could apply to any belief system or religion.
It seems that my lack of belief in your religion is causing you concern and stress. Just ignore me and return to equanimity.
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rinnie
Guest
Well lets see. you said since buddhism has no god one cannot say I abandoned a true God for a false one. Lets see. What do you think of this?
2: Tim. For the time will come when
people will not tolerate sound doctrine but following thier own desires and insatible curiosity will accumulate teachers and will stop
listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.
but you be self-possessed in all circumstances put up with the hardship perform the work of an evaneglist FULFILL your ministry.
Also where does the Church ever comdemn anyone to hell. I have never heard of it. Even ST Paul says only God can judge us worthy or un-worthy.
While the CC has high regard to what
is true in
other faiths. and they often have a RAY of truth which enligtens all men and women it proclaims it is in duty bound to proclaim without fail it is Christ who is the way the truth and the life.
We cannot truly pray to God the Father of all if we treat any people as other then sisters and brothers, for God created all in his image.
There is no commandment greater then this Love one another as I have loved you.
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rinnie
Guest
Sorry for the repeat of scripture, I thought that post was lost. It did not come through right away.
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rinnie
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Not at all, it is you who said ask me anything, Remember
Did you every believe in the Catholic faith?
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notself
Guest
It was the original poster who said, “Ask me anything”. I asked if one had any questions about a specific post. That said, I don’t mind your questions, it just appears that you are in a state of stress because of the way your phrase your responses.Not at all, it is you who said ask me anything, Remember
Did you every believe in the Catholic faith?
I believed in the Catholic Faith as a young child. By the time I was 10-12 years old and while still enrolled in an excellent Catholic school being taught by wonderful nuns (Sister of St. Joseph) I was just going through the motions. Belief in the ritual of the Mass had evaporated. By 19, I didn’t believe that the Catholic church was the one true religion. By 25 after reading the Bible cover to cover along with all the footnotes and talking with a priest, I no longer considered myself a Christian.
I never read any religious books other than Catholic publications and the Bible before “losing” my faith. No evil doers influenced me with their wicked talks or actions. Nothing bad was done to me by any priest or teacher. The nuns were lovely, thoughtful women. I just came to a point where I did not believe. It is a mystery to me why others believe.
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rinnie
Guest
Sorry if my responses came on as me being in a state of stress. I’m not
Just a small word of advice. Continue to investigate the Catholic faith, just for kicks if nothing else. But really learn the teachings first.
Then the real mystery will come to life. You will learn why the Catholic Church is the True Mystery
Sorry again if I came acrossed as stressed or angry. I am truly a pretty calm person.
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Bakmoon
Guest
It isn’t any sort of prayer. It is something that is recited as an expression of a desire for the welfare of all beings, and as a means of arousing this desire for the welfare of all beings. It’s no different than seeing something bad happen to someone and then saying “I hope everything turns out alright for them.” It is not a petition, but a statement of one’s desires.Many
Here is the first problem, IMO. Do you no understand how this is so contrary to Christian faith?
Look at your prayer, or whatever you want to call it. Who exactly are you talking to or trying to reach when you say these thing? Are you not asking for help? From who then?
Think about it, When you say MAY my spouse be well and happy. Rather you want to admit it or not, its asking SOMEONE or SOMETHING for something. Who then if not God?
Do you not see that it is not a valid prayer. Because for a prayer to be valid it must lead to Christ who is the way the ruth and the Life.
Do you not see that you are abandoning the True God for a false god? That is why I believe it is in direct conflict with the first commandment.
I AM the Lord your God, there shall be no other gods before me. The reason I say I AM in big letters, is to show you that I AM is ANOTHER name for the Triune God.
What makes this harder for me to except is the truth was given to you about the ONE TRUE GOD, but you have rejected it. Do you understand that when You reject Christ you have put your soul in mortal danger?
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notself
Guest
Bakmoon,
You mentioned Anapanasati meditation a few posts back and I thought it might be useful to post the sutta for the benefit of other members who may meditate in the Christian tradition.
You mentioned Anapanasati meditation a few posts back and I thought it might be useful to post the sutta for the benefit of other members who may meditate in the Christian tradition.
Compare this to a quote provided by Vouthon:
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Bakmoon
Guest
Let us examine this statement in a broader context. I have argued that some of the truths of Buddhism can be helpful to Catholics. You objected that since these beliefs and practices are part of Buddhism, which rejects God, these cannot be true or helpful. This objection only works if we are talking about supernatural revelation, rather than natural revelation, because not believing in God does not preclude an understanding of natural truths.
Either your objection did mean supernatural revelation or your objection is a logical non-sequitur.
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Vouthon
Guest
I think that brother Bakmoon is in agreement with the Church
There are certainly truths in Buddhism since:
“…There is something true and divinely revealed, in every religion all over the earth…”
- Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman (21 February 1801 – 11 August 1890)
"…It is the Spirit who is the source of the drive to press on, not only geographically but also beyond the frontiers of race and religion, for a truly universal mission…The Spirit’s presence and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history: “The Spirit of God with marvelous foresight directs the course of the ages and renews the face of the earth…I have repeatedly called this fact to mind, and it has guided me in my meetings with a wide variety of peoples. The Church’s relationship with other religions is dictated by a twofold respect: “Respect for man in his quest for answers to the deepest questions of his life, and respect for the action of the Spirit in man.” The interreligious meeting held in Assisi was meant to confirm my conviction that ‘every authentic prayer is prompted by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in every human heart.’…Every form of the Spirit’s presence is to be welcomed with respect and gratitude, but the discernment of this presence is the responsibility of the Church, to which Christ gave his Spirit in order to guide her into all the truth…”
-Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) once wrote:
“Just as ‘the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in [the great religions]‘ neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian. On the contrary, one can take from them what is useful so long as the Christian conception of prayer, its logic and requirements are never obscured.”
In a papal encyclical, Blessed Pope John Paul II said that Catholics should seek to find and learn about some of the holy concepts from Indian religions which are compatible with our own:
“…My thoughts turn immediately to the lands of the East, so rich in religious and philosophical traditions of great antiquity. Among these lands, India has a special place. A great spiritual impulse leads Indian thought to seek an experience which would liberate the spirit from the shackles of time and space and would therefore acquire absolute value. The dynamic of this quest for liberation provides the context for great metaphysical systems. In India particularly, it is the duty of Christians now to draw from this rich heritage the elements compatible with their faith, in order to enrich Christian thought…”
- Blessed Pope John Paul II, FIDES ET RATIO, 1998
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