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I have a Question!!!

How come Siddartha Gautama taught that there is no God, even though he Buddhism is considerable from Hinduism?
Just a little clarification. The religion at the time is Brahmanism (aka the Vedic religion). The various schools of Hinduism are the offspring of Vedicism, while Buddhism and Jainism are often thought to derive from the parallel non-Vedic Shramana movement.

Now atheistic thinking was not foreign to Indian thought even before Buddhism. Traditionally, different Indian philosophies were classified depending on whether they accept the Vedas as authoritative or not: those who did were considered to be ‘orthodox’ and called astika ‘it is so’, while those who did not (like Buddhism and Jainism) were labelled nastika “it is not so.” Sometimes this is translated as ‘theist’ and ‘atheist’, respectively, but this is slightly incorrect, since while the three nastika schools rejected the notion of the existence of a creator god alongside the authority of the Vedas, at least one or two astika schools (the Samkhya and the Mimamsa, at least in its early stage) thought the same while accepting the Vedas. One must keep in mind though that the type of atheism espoused in historical Indian philosophies is different from the Western kind we are familiar with today: the Samkhya school for example believed in a dualistic existence of prakriti (“nature”) and purusha (“spirit”) and had no place for an Ishvara (“god”) in its system. The early Mimamsa school saw no need for the existence of an Ishvara because of its karma-centered philosophy: it is thought that human action (karma; in this case, performance of Vedic rituals) was enough to generate the necessary circumstances (the “unseen” or adrishta) for the enjoyment of its fruits.
 
How come Siddartha Gautama taught that there is no God, even though he Buddhism is considerable from Hinduism?
The Buddha taught that the gods existed, but that they were not very important. The Tripitaka records him teaching the gods, both on earth and in the heavens.

The Abrahamic God does get a mention in the Tripitaka, though I am afraid that the full reference is not very flattering. Here is that God’s description of Himself:

“I am the Brahma, the great Brahma, the conqueror, the unconquered, the all-seeing, the subjector of all to his wishes, the omnipotent, the maker, the creator, the supreme, the controller, the one confirmed in the practice of jhana, and father to all that have been and shall be. I have created these other beings.”

– Brahmajala sutta, Digha Nikaya 1

Buddhism does not consider the gods to be important, because the gods need to be taught by the Buddha. They are travellers along the path, just as we are.

rossum
 
Just a little clarification. The religion at the time is Brahmanism (aka the Vedic religion). The various schools of Hinduism are the offspring of Vedicism, while Buddhism and Jainism are often thought to derive from the parallel non-Vedic Shramana movement.

Now atheistic thinking was not foreign to Indian thought even before Buddhism. Traditionally, different Indian philosophies were classified depending on whether they accept the Vedas as authoritative or not: those who did were considered to be ‘orthodox’ and called astika ‘it is so’, while those who did not (like Buddhism and Jainism) were labelled nastika “it is not so.” Sometimes this is translated as ‘theist’ and ‘atheist’, respectively, but this is slightly incorrect, since while the three nastika schools rejected the notion of the existence of a creator god alongside the authority of the Vedas, at least one or two astika schools (the Samkhya and the Mimamsa, at least in its early stage) thought the same while accepting the Vedas. One must keep in mind though that the type of atheism espoused in historical Indian philosophies is different from the Western kind we are familiar with today: the Samkhya school for example believed in a dualistic existence of prakriti (“nature”) and purusha (“spirit”) and had no place for an Ishvara (“god”) in its system. The early Mimamsa school saw no need for the existence of an Ishvara because of its karma-centered philosophy: it is thought that human action (karma; in this case, performance of Vedic rituals) was enough to generate the necessary circumstances (the “unseen” or adrishta) for the enjoyment of its fruits.
I would like to expand on my own post.

Āstika and nāstika, as mentioned, were terms used to classify philosophical schools and persons, according to whether they accept the authority of the Vedas or not.

Traditionally, there were six ‘orthodox’ āstika schools: Nyāya, Vaiśeṣika, Sāṃkhya, Yoga, Mimāṃsā (aka Pūrva Mīmāṃsā), and Vedanta (aka Uttarā Mīmāṃsā). Sometimes these are often coupled into three groups for both historical and conceptual reasons: Nyāya-Vaiśeṣika, Sāṃkhya-Yoga, and Mimāṃsā-Vedanta. Mimāṃsā’s primary enquiry was into the nature of dharma (here meaning ‘duty’, i.e. a set ritual obligations and prerogatives to be performed properly) based on close hermeneutics of the Vedas, while the Vedantic tradition focused on the esoteric teachings of the Āraṇyakas and the Upanishads. Sāṃkhya held that knowledge is the means of liberation, while Yoga was more of a system of active striving, mental discipline, and dutiful action. Nyāyá was a form of logic and epistemology, since its main tenet was that valid knowledge (obtainable through perception, inference, comparison, and testimony) was the only way to obtain release from suffering, while Vaiśeṣika espoused a form of atomism: everything in the universe are reducible to a finite number of atoms.

As mentioned, Sāṃkhya and Mimāṃsā do not hold to the existence of a supreme creator or controller (Īśvara). The Sāṃkhya school was dualistic: it held that there are only two realities in the universe, namely puruṣa (the ‘spirit’/‘self’) and prakṛti (‘nature’). Atheistic strands of Mimāṃsā meanwhile held that the Īśvara’s existence is ultimately unnecessary, just as there was no need for an author to compose the Vedas or a god to validate the rituals. It argued that the Vedic deities even have no existence apart from the mantras that speak their names. Performance of rituals (karma or ‘action’) was enough to generate the necessary circumstances; the power of the mantras is what is seen as the power of the gods.

There were three main nāstika schools: Cārvāka, Jainism and Buddhism. In addition to their rejection of the Vedas, all three are also ‘atheists’ (in the Indian sense) in that they did not believe in a supreme Īśvara who created and maintains the world.

The so-called Śramaṇa (Pali: Samaṇa) was a parallel movement which existed alongside the ancient Vedic religion. This tradition was what gave rise to Jainism and Buddhism (among the nāstika) and Yoga (among the āstika), and was responsible for the ideas of karma, saṃsāra (the cycle of birth and death) and moksha (liberation from that cycle). It mainly refers to renunciate ascetic traditions which were individual, experiential and free-form traditions, independent of society in religious competition with Brahmin priests, who as opposed to Shramanas, stressed on mastery of texts and performing rituals.
 
Also asked me about John Paul ll. He has a book about it. I can’t remember the name, but I am sure by the quote you can goole it and find it.

I am going out but will be back on Mon, to help you if you can’t find it. God Bless!
You must be thinking of the book “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” but in post 654, Vouthon points out that Pope Benedict XVI said that:

“We are, I think, all convinced that we can learn something, for example, from the mysticism of Asia and that precisely the great mystical traditions also open possibilities of encounter…The Christian can also find the secret working of God behind them.”

So it seems you are being a little selective.
 
The Catholic mystic Ruysbroeck spoke of a natural state of emptiness, distinct from supernatural rest in which one loses the self in God through the grace of God.

He wrote:

“…All creatures are naturally inclined towards rest and therefore both the good and the bad seek rest in many different ways. Now notice that whenever a person is bare and imageless in his senses and devoid of activity in his higher powers, he enters a purely natural state of rest. All persons can find and possess this kind of rest in themselves by merely natural means, apart from God’s grace, provided only that they can become empty of images and all activity…Consider now the way in which a person practices this natural rest. It consists in sitting quietly in a state of idleness, without any interior or exterior exercises, in order to find rest and have it remain undisturbed…The rest which they possess consists in an emptying of their inmost being, something to which they are inclined by both nature and custom. One cannot find God in this state of natural rest, but it does bring a person into that state of emptiness which can be attained by all persons…The rest which one attains in this state of emptiness is both satisying and deep. In itself it is not sinful, for it arises naturally in everyone whenever he empties himself of all activity…”

- Blessed Jan Van Ruysbroeck (1294-1381), Catholic mystic

Obviously such a natural state of emptiness without the sanctifying grace of God is not enough for a Christian, however it is not sinful to attain purely natural rest so long as one also aims to contemplate and pray with the Grace of God.

I thought that this was an interesting idea.

A Catholic could perhaps use Buddhist meditations to reach a state of natural rest, which could bring the person into a peaceful, serene state which could make them more receptive and ready to engage in Contemplative practice of the Christian kind centered on God, once the dross of their thoughts and emotions have been purified.

That doesn’t mean that Buddhists do not attain to supernatural emptiness. I am only saying this because the thought of natural emptiness came to me just there.

I believe that they do attain to supernatural emptiness, even without explicit theism, for Ruysbroeck also says:

“…Now mark this: God being a common good, and his boundless love being common to all …] his grace is common to all men, whether Pagan or Jew, whether good or evil. By reason of his common love, which God has towards all men, he has caused his name and the redemption of human nature to be preached and revealed to the uttermost parts of the earth. Whoever wishes to turn to Him can turn to Him …] Thus God is a common Light and a common splendour, enlightening heaven and earth and every man, each according to his need…The light of divine grace, which makes man pleasing to God, and through which he merits eternal life, is offered to all men…”

***- Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1293 – 1381), Flemish Catholic mystic ***

Buddhists also receive grace from God and if acted upon with human effort, even without an explicit belief in God, they can also attain to supernatural emptiness as well - although the Buddha (whom I believe did) would not have called it that or thought of it in this way.

Vatican II says that, in addition to Jews and Muslims and others who believe in God, it is possible for people who do not believe in God to be salvation because they too receive grace from God:

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life [Lumen Gentium 16]

The constitution Gaudium et Spes also stressed the universality of salvation:

ince Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery **[Gaudium et Spes 22] **
 
"To study Buddhism is to study the self; to study the self is to forget the self,” wrote Dogen-zenji, the 13th-century founder of the Soto Zen school.

“Begin therefore with yourself and forget yourself!” said the 14th-century Catholic mystic Meister Eckhart.
 
So, is there some sort of “soul” concept in Buddhism? What is it that remains?
The question of what happens to an enlightened being who dies is unanswerable in my opinion. This is not because we lack knowledge of Nibbana to answer it, but because the very question presupposes the existence of an objective identity, something which is denied by basic Buddhist doctrine. The question is flawed.
 
Bakmoon,

August 2 is a full moon according to Dhammayut calculation. It is an observation of the Buddha’s First Discourse.

Do you ever observe Uposatha? It’s been a long while since I have but I’m going to give it a go.
 
Theravada relies on the Tipitaka Canon exclusively. This text is written in Pali. Theravada translates to “The Way of the Elders”. It is practiced predominately in Sri Lanka, Burma, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and parts of Southeast Asia. It has very few rituals.

Mahayana has many other scriptures in addition to the Tipitaka. Texts are written in Sanskrit and other languages. Mahayana means “Great Vehicle”. It is practiced in China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Mongolia, Tibet and parts of Southeast Asia. It has many rituals influenced heavily by local culture.
 
Bakmoon,

August 2 is a full moon according to Dhammayut calculation. It is an observation of the Buddha’s First Discourse.

Do you ever observe Uposatha? It’s been a long while since I have but I’m going to give it a go.
Not at the moment, but in the upcoming months I am planning on keeping the 8 precepts every Monday. It’s more convinient to do it this way than with the lunar calendar, and all the benefits come from keeping the precepts rather than the moon phase.
 
Whats the difference between Theravada and the other one?
Theravada Buddhism is the only remaining of the early pre-mahayana sects of Buddhism. It’s texts are more ancient than those of other sects, and it has (in its ideals if not in actual practice) valued the original emphasis on a strict lifestyle of self-discipline and asceticism for monks. For example, Theravadin Monks can’t own or handle money,fast during the afternoon everyday, are celibate, and give up all forms of entertainment and many other such practices that lead to a quiet and contemplative life (Though none would deny that standards can and have fallen over the centuries).

Mahayana Buddhism is actually a blanket term that covers a series of movements and ideas that developed over time. Entire pantheons of Buddhas and Bodhisattva developed, along with an emphasis on striving to become a fully enlightened Buddha sometime in the future. Their texts are later and are much more poetic and philosophical, and less practical than the Theravadin scruptures, which are nominally ascribed to, but are regarded as being preliminary teachings to prepare for the final teachings of Mahayana Buddhism, and so are very rarely studied. Apart from that, there are far too many differences withing Mahayana Buddhism to really generalize in any meaningful way.
 
The difference between mahayana buddhism and Theravada Buddhism?
For information, I follow Mahayana Buddhism.

About 100 years after the Buddha died, the Second Buddhis Council was held. At that council there was a split between the Sthaviradins and the Mahasangikas. The modern Theravadins are the lineal descendants of the Sthaviradins, while the modern Mahayana developed from the Mahasangikas.

The Sthaviradins placed more emphasis on the monastic order while the Mahasangikas placed more emphasis on the lay people. That general emphasis has persisted in their descendants; the Mahayana places more importance on ways for lay people to progress on the path. Some of the important Mahayana Bodhisattves, such as Vimalakirti, are themselves lay people, not monks.

The great majority of ideas in the Mahayana can also be found in the Theravada, though with different emphasis. Historically, the Mahayana has been less conservative, and more willing to try out new approaches.

The core of the older Mahayana texts date from around the same time as the Theravada texts. They are preserved in Hybrid Sanskrit verse inside the larger sutras. While the Theravada stuck with Pali, the Mahayana added explanations to the archaic language of the verse in (then) more modern Classical Sanskrit, and so the sutras grew to a larger size. Older sutras, like the Lotus, have text duplicated, once in verse and again in prose. The Mahayana was more prepared to rework their scriptures to suit new places and new peoples. The essential message stayed the same, but the means of delivery were changed to suit new circumstances.

rossum
 
For information, I follow Mahayana Buddhism.

About 100 years after the Buddha died, the Second Buddhis Council was held. At that council there was a split between the Sthaviradins and the Mahasangikas. The modern Theravadins are the lineal descendants of the Sthaviradins, while the modern Mahayana developed from the Mahasangikas.

The Sthaviradins placed more emphasis on the monastic order while the Mahasangikas placed more emphasis on the lay people. That general emphasis has persisted in their descendants; the Mahayana places more importance on ways for lay people to progress on the path. Some of the important Mahayana Bodhisattves, such as Vimalakirti, are themselves lay people, not monks.

The great majority of ideas in the Mahayana can also be found in the Theravada, though with different emphasis. Historically, the Mahayana has been less conservative, and more willing to try out new approaches.

The core of the older Mahayana texts date from around the same time as the Theravada texts. They are preserved in Hybrid Sanskrit verse inside the larger sutras. While the Theravada stuck with Pali, the Mahayana added explanations to the archaic language of the verse in (then) more modern Classical Sanskrit, and so the sutras grew to a larger size. Older sutras, like the Lotus, have text duplicated, once in verse and again in prose. The Mahayana was more prepared to rework their scriptures to suit new places and new peoples. The essential message stayed the same, but the means of delivery were changed to suit new circumstances.

rossum
Yep, Buddhist Hybrid Sanskrit. BTW, which Mahayana ‘school’ are you from (if you belong to one)?

Just a question. How does Theravada chant sound like?

For the record:

Avalokitasvara Bodhisattva, when he was practicing profound Prajñāpāramitā, perceives that the Five Aggregates (skandha) are all empty, thus overcoming every suffering and calamity.

"Śāriputra! Form is no different from voidness (śūnyatā); voidness is no different from form. Form is voidness; voidness is form. Form (rūpa), feeling (vedanā), volitions (samskārā), perceptions (saṁjñā), [and] consciousness are thus also.
"Śāriputra, all phenomena (dharma) are empty of characteristics: non-producing, non-destroying; non-defiled, non-pure; non-adding, non-subtracting.
“Therefore in voidness there is no form, [and] no feeling, volitions, perceptions, [and] consciousness; no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, [or] mind; no form, sound, odor, taste, touch, [or] phenomena; no eye-realm (dhātu), up to and including no mind-realm; no ignorance (avidyā), and also no termination of ignorance; up to and including no age-death (jarāmaraṇa) and also no termination of age-death; no suffering (duḥkha), origin (samudaya), cessation (nirodha), [or] path (magga); no knowledge (jnana), [and] also no merit…”
 
This is exactly true. All thing’s come from God. You continue to try to make this about grace. Let me give you the truth about my faith.

All good things come from God and his Grace. Period. We are born because of the grace of God, we breath because of the grace of God.

With that grace comes faith, it is because of our faith and from the grace of God that we have works. With the grace of God comes free will. We have free will from the FREE GRACE given to us from God to reject his grace and use our faith and do good deeds. or we reject his GRACE and refuse to do GOOD DEEDS with it.

As ST James said faith without good works is fruitless. We would not even have faith if it were not for God. We strenghten our faith in God by our prayers and the more we pray and honor God the more Grace we receive.

It is by this grace our faith grows, it is by using our faith through his Grace given to us that we can do more. The more grace you are given and use for the sake of God and do good works for him the more grace is given to you. This is the Catholic faith.

I have no idea how you feel that if we choose to use the grace given to us by God that he is taking away our free will. It makes no sense to me.

Can you show me how us choosing to use our GOD given grace and living out our faith takes away our free will.

If you can please do so, it not please let it drop.
Rinnie,

Remember that this was originally about your denial that any kind of mental discipline to avoid temptation was of any use, unless the mental discipline in question explicitly acknowledged God. At least, that seemed to be your position–if it wasn’t, I can’t make sense of what you said.

The point Bakmoon and I are making is that in Catholic theology “natural” means may be valuable in helping one live in a more virtuous and healthy way. This doesn’t take away from our total dependence on God.

You seemed to be saying that the only way one can do anything to avoid sin is simply to rely on grace, which seemed to be saying that grace canceled out free will.

Edwin
 
Go to Catholiceducation.org. Father John Handon S. J. has alot to say on this.

Also the Catholic magazine The Rock has a great article.
In short, you’re relying on a Jesuit priest and a lay evangelization organization.

Well, there are plenty of Jesuit priests who practice Buddhist meditation, yoga, etc. . . .

Apparently you find Fr. Hardon’s arguments more persuasive, which is certainly legitimate.

But I have to ask whether you have actually read anything written by a Catholic on the other side of the debate?

Edwin
 
Not at the moment, but in the upcoming months I am planning on keeping the 8 precepts every Monday. It’s more convinient to do it this way than with the lunar calendar, and all the benefits come from keeping the precepts rather than the moon phase.
Are you going to do the one meal before midday?
 
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