Ask a Gnostic Anything

[Randy_Carson]

By that logic, there is no way that a Catholic can have an intimate experience of Christ outside the rituals or doctrines of the Church because Jesus only revealed Himself to one small group of people at one specific point in history. Also that would imply that contemplation (in the Catholic sense) is a pointless activity.

Why?

Many people in the New Testament had an experience of Jesus. Mary, Martha and Lazarus were among His closest friends. But they were not among the group to whom He bestowed the authority necessary for building His Church, were they? :nope:

 

[Denise1957]

In the Gnostic view of the Divine, God contains all potentiality within Himself. Everything that can exist in the past, present, and future are all part of Him. God first emanated in order to understand Himself, so with the first emanation (Forethought, Barbelo, the Mother of the Aeons) He then had an observer and an “observee”. Each one of us are part of His overall experience… What we experience temporally is just a blip in His eternal existence. So the flaw also came about, through His will, as a means of experiencing all that He contains.

I’ve always found it interesting that Sophia’s syzygy is called Theletos, which means “perfection”. Whereas all the Aeons emanate through the cooperation of a masculine and feminine pair (syzygies), Sophia’s longing to know Her source resulted in Her emanating without Theletos – without perfection. This resulted in an imperfect emanation, the demiurge, whose imperfection all creation experiences and tries to overcome.

That’s an interesting view of the divine, and since it has nothing to do with Catholicism, I have to refer to your god as not being the real God. Nothing personal. You are free to believe what you like. It’s just that there’s absolutely nothing in common between the God of Abraham, and the god of the gnostics. You believe that your god “emanated” a being (Sophia) which is flawed, and from her came another flawed being. Hmmm. And yet our God did not create flawed beings, or a flawed earth. We were created with free will, and due to original sin, we can choose good or evil.

In the OT (Hebrew Bible), in Genesis, I recall a passage where, when God created the world, He saw that it was good. Good…not evil. So we Catholics do not believe that the world is evil. It may not be perfect, but it isn’t evil (the physical earth).

 

[Randy_Carson]

Wow so you got the full range of the Jewish faith!

Divinity: Jesus was born human and became divine through His complete absorption in God. The culmination of this was during his baptism. During His crucifixion, the last remnants of His earthly existence (His body) was shed and He entered into a state of consciousness where He had zero individuality-He was completely absorbed in the divine.

Messiahship: I do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the messianic qualifications of the Old Testament (I was actually firmly convinced of this fact by Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi-are you familiar?). However, I do not find the prophecies of the Tanakh to be relevant to my spiritual life, so it is not important. However, I do think that Jesus was born to be a representative of the divine for the people of that region and any that open their hearts to Him.

Hypostatic Union: Gnostics believe that all people are born half human and half divine. With the exception of His physical body (which He was not attached to nor associated with His existence), He became pure spirit upon His baptism.

If He was pure spirit, why did He ask the woman at the well for a drink? Spirits don’t get thirsty.

Why did he eat a piece of fish or ask Thomas to put his hand in His side?

To show that He had a real body and was NOT a pure spirit.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

Are there any Gnostics who do not regard themselves as Christians? And, on the flipside, do you know which other Christians consider Gnostics to be Christians?

I know plenty of other Christians that consider us to be Christian, even my Catholic friends. Some of them have even said that in many ways, Catholics and Gnostics have more in common with each other than Catholics and Protestants. I don’t know of any denominations that have an official stance one way or another… The church we rent our chapel from recognizes our Christianity. Even the Catholic Church considers us a Christian heresy, which by definition still makes us Christian even if we’re “wrong”.

There are the Thelemites, who identify themselves as Gnostic while not being Christian. They consider Aleister Crowley to be their prophet and founder, and while I can certainly see some gnostic themes to their religion, they have nothing to do with historical Christian Gnosticism. They strive to attain what they call “knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel”, which is comparable to Gnosis.

 

[meltzerboy]

I know plenty of other Christians that consider us to be Christian, even my Catholic friends. Some of them have even said that in many ways, Catholics and Gnostics have more in common with each other than Catholics and Protestants. I don’t know of any denominations that have an official stance one way or another… The church we rent our chapel from recognizes our Christianity. Even the Catholic Church considers us a Christian heresy, which by definition still makes us Christian even if we’re “wrong”.

There are the Thelemites, who identify themselves as Gnostic while not being Christian. They consider Aleister Crowley to be their prophet and founder, and while I can certainly see some gnostic themes to their religion, they have nothing to do with historical Christian Gnosticism. They strive to attain what they call “knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel”, which is comparable to Gnosis.

Thank you for the interesting information.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

A Christian is someone who believes that Christ is God, and also accepts that He came to the world to offer salvation for each person’s sins. Anyone else is NOT a Christian.

And Gnostics wouldn’t entirely disagree, we just differ in exactly how He offered that salvation. In overcoming ignorance and the imperfection of the world, we overcome sin and death.

 

[meltzerboy]

That’s an interesting view of the divine, and since it has nothing to do with Catholicism, I have to refer to your god as not being the real God. Nothing personal. You are free to believe what you like. It’s just that there’s absolutely nothing in common between the God of Abraham, and the god of the gnostics. You believe that your god “emanated” a being (Sophia) which is flawed, and from her came another flawed being. Hmmm. And yet our God did not create flawed beings, or a flawed earth. We were created with free will, and due to original sin, we can choose good or evil.

In the OT (Hebrew Bible), in Genesis, I recall a passage where, when God created the world, He saw that it was good. Good…not evil. So we Catholics do not believe that the world is evil. It may not be perfect, but it isn’t evil (the physical earth).

Note too that while G-d called His creation good, He called it very good only after He created human beings who have the power of freely choosing to either obey or disobey G-d. This free will, with both the possibility of disobedience as well as the potential to do what is right and moral, made G-d’s creation very good albeit, in a certain sense, imperfect.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

That’s an interesting view of the divine, and since it has nothing to do with Catholicism, I have to refer to your god as not being the real God. Nothing personal. You are free to believe what you like. It’s just that there’s absolutely nothing in common between the God of Abraham, and the god of the gnostics. You believe that your god “emanated” a being (Sophia) which is flawed, and from her came another flawed being. Hmmm. And yet our God did not create flawed beings, or a flawed earth. We were created with free will, and due to original sin, we can choose good or evil.

In the OT (Hebrew Bible), in Genesis, I recall a passage where, when God created the world, He saw that it was good. Good…not evil. So we Catholics do not believe that the world is evil. It may not be perfect, but it isn’t evil (the physical earth).

We don’t believe that the world is evil either, it’s just that there is something more perfect beyond it. Gnostic scripture is full of world-affirming passages that express the beauty of creation, despite it being imperfect.

In your view, God created the world, and allowed sin (which was caused by human beings) to exist in it. Is that not an imperfection in the world that Christ had to rectify? Why did God allow that imperfection to exist in the first place? For what purpose?

In our view, God didn’t just allow imperfection to exist in the world (resulting in sin), but it was His will that it should exist.

 

[Denise1957]

We don’t believe that the world is evil either, it’s just that there is something more perfect beyond it. Gnostic scripture is full of world-affirming passages that express the beauty of creation, despite it being imperfect.

In your view, God created the world, and allowed sin (which was caused by human beings) to exist in it. Is that not an imperfection in the world that Christ had to rectify? Why did God allow that imperfection to exist in the first place? For what purpose?

In our view, God didn’t just allow imperfection to exist in the world (resulting in sin), but it was His will that it should exist.

God didn’t allow sin. It was the first humans, Adam and Eve, that allowed it, by disobeying God. God (the real God) isn’t going to interfere with free will. We can choose to disobey Him. But then we have to live with and deal with the consequences. We can see what one mortal sin can do…the sin of Adam and Eve…and the consequences.

 

[Denise1957]

Note too that while G-d called His creation good, He called it very good only after He created human beings who have the power of freely choosing to either obey or disobey G-d. This free will, with both the possibility of disobedience as well as the potential to do what is right and moral, made G-d’s creation very good albeit, in a certain sense, imperfect.

You raise a good point here, but I would say that God’s creation allowed for only the possibility of imperfection, based on human actions. If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, then there would not be imperfection, I think. I’m thinking about what life was like (according to Genesis) in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. It was very nice.

 

[meltzerboy]

You raise a good point here, but I would say that God’s creation allowed for only the possibility of imperfection, based on human actions. If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, then there would not be imperfection, I think. I’m thinking about what life was like (according to Genesis) in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. It was very nice.

Yet even though it was an idyllic “paradise,” Adam and Eve were tempted towards sin and yielded to their temptation, thus committing sin by disobeying G-d’s command. If they had not been given free will, they would not have even been tempted in the first place. Now, one might argue that their giving in to temptation was their own doing, not that of G-d, and, in a sense, that is true. However, at the same time, they were equipped with that possibility by G-d Himself, no doubt for noble reasons. The main point I wish to make, though, is that after Adam and Eve disobey G-d, they become fully human through the realization of their imperfection. Although Christianity would consider this moment their fall from grace and a stain on their souls, passed down from one generation to the next, which requires cleansing by means of the Sacrament of Baptism, Judaism, on the other hand, considers it the beginning of an opportunity for Adam and Eve and subsequently all of humanity to, for the first time, learn how to make real choices for good based on exercising free will, once having experienced the consequences of the choice in the other direction. Further, Adam and Eve will now have to learn how to control, harness, balance their “evil inclination,” which in itself is considered to be, according to Jewish thought, necessary for survival, rather than misuse or abuse it, since the latter behavior will lead only to harmful and self-destructive outcomes.

 

[Lucretius]

I know plenty of other Christians that consider us to be Christian, even my Catholic friends. Some of them have even said that in many ways, Catholics and Gnostics have more in common with each other than Catholics and Protestants. I don’t know of any denominations that have an official stance one way or another… The church we rent our chapel from recognizes our Christianity. Even the Catholic Church considers us a Christian heresy, which by definition still makes us Christian even if we’re “wrong”.

There are the Thelemites, who identify themselves as Gnostic while not being Christian. They consider Aleister Crowley to be their prophet and founder, and while I can certainly see some gnostic themes to their religion, they have nothing to do with historical Christian Gnosticism. They strive to attain what they call “knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel”, which is comparable to Gnosis.

I think I mentioned before that “Gnostic” is a very broad term. I would say that some groups are closer to orthodox Christianity then others: Valentinianism, for example, would be closer than Mandaeism (these people accept St. John the Baptist, but not Jesus, Abraham, or Moses ).

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[curtish1947]

You raise a good point here, but I would say that God’s creation allowed for only the possibility of imperfection, based on human actions. If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God, then there would not be imperfection, I think. I’m thinking about what life was like (according to Genesis) in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. It was very nice.

Yes,
Also Denise it is said later that God never intended for them to fall. It was the envy of the Devil. Hopefully that is also known in Jewish Scriptures.
…Curt/K.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Wisdom+2%3A24&version=DRA

So it was perfect , according to the Bible, once upon a time. God cursed the ground because of Adam. He also caused the woman to have pain at birth. The perfect contrasts with the Gnostic beliefs, about an imperfect emanation who thinking himself to be God acted according to his false beliefs.

 

[Slartibartfast]

For me, one of the interesting questions that Gnosticism poses is that of the nature of the parables. Gnostics will always interpret the parables as allegorical; the understanding of them demands esoteric knowledge. Righty or wrongly, my perception is that most non-Gnostic Christians interpret the parables in a literal sense.

I have been away from Christianity for a decade or two so I am eager to hear what others think on this matter.

 

[Denise1957]

Yet even though it was an idyllic “paradise,” Adam and Eve were tempted towards sin and yielded to their temptation, thus committing sin by disobeying G-d’s command. If they had not been given free will, they would not have even been tempted in the first place. Now, one might argue that their giving in to temptation was their own doing, not that of G-d, and, in a sense, that is true. However, at the same time, they were equipped with that possibility by G-d Himself, no doubt for noble reasons. The main point I wish to make, though, is that after Adam and Eve disobey G-d, they become fully human through the realization of their imperfection. Although Christianity would consider this moment their fall from grace and a stain on their souls, passed down from one generation to the next, which requires cleansing by means of the Sacrament of Baptism, Judaism, on the other hand, considers it the beginning of an opportunity for Adam and Eve and subsequently all of humanity to, for the first time, learn how to make real choices for good based on exercising free will, once having experienced the consequences of the choice in the other direction. Further, Adam and Eve will now have to learn how to control, harness, balance their “evil inclination,” which in itself is considered to be, according to Jewish thought, necessary for survival, rather than misuse or abuse it, since the latter behavior will lead only to harmful and self-destructive outcomes.

Thanks for explaining the difference between Christian and Judaic views on the Fall of Adam and Eve. But I noticed that you didn’t mention, from the Judaic point of view, God at all. How does God fit in with, say, learning how to control or harness evil inclinations, etc.?

In Catholicism, of course, we learn to depend on God to help us, and through the sacraments, prayer, obedience to His laws, we grow in love for God, and with effort on our part and help (grace) given by God, we can grow in holiness.

 

[Denise1957]

Yes,
Also Denise it is said later that God never intended for them to fall. It was the envy of the Devil. Hopefully that is also known in Jewish Scriptures.
…Curt/K.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Wisdom+2%3A24&version=DRA

So it was perfect , according to the Bible, once upon a time. God cursed the ground because of Adam. He also caused the woman to have pain at birth. The perfect contrasts with the Gnostic beliefs, about an imperfect emanation who thinking himself to be God acted according to his false beliefs.

I think you’re right in that God did not intend them to Fall, at least in Catholic teaching. The Judaic view may be different. God told Adam and Eve to NOT eat from the tree. He made it clear. It was satan who convinced them that they could eat from the tree.

As an aside, I hope that this isn’t getting too far off topic, with the current discussion of Catholic and Judaic views of the Fall. I think that it’s important to clarify these, though, and compare them to gnostic views, since some gnostics think that Gnosticism is Christian. By these comparisons, I think it makes it clear that there are no (or very little) similarities of Gnosticism to Christianity, or Judaism (from which Christianity came from).

 

[Jerurussia]

The problem of evil
Ain’t my problem.
To shame and blame God
Is what I must doooo.

Take it up with Lucifer
That enlightened being
Giving gnew gnowledge
That mankind came to rue.

Skiddledy-bum I see
But do not see it’s true.
Skibbledy-dum I feel.
I feel your pain for you.

This poem was revealed to my by experiencing a cup of mocha java that I gnew was one with the divine essence.

Matter and energy cannot be destroyed. So life is eternal. So nobody dies except they pick the CHOICE of the second death, rejecting God, and His honoring free will with the option of Hell Condo, where He is not. So the option is LIFE AND BLESSING versus DEATH AND CURSING. So there is more hope for a famine victim than those who watch and say it’s not my problem, I am not my brother’s keeper, I have my own enlightenment path to worry about…As Christians, Judeo-Christians, we LOVE GOD ALL; AND NEIGHBOR AS SELF FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. So >hint hint< there is no “Christian Gnostic.”

Gnosticism is pre-Christian, and the Roman philosophers hated them with their anti-female fake “ancient” documents and lying. So is lying OK? Or are you a different Gnostic?

Gnostics as I have noted are merely Luciferians, contradicting all God has revealed about Himself and His will. The “problem” of evil is man’s choice, and God’s honoring our free will and not making us zombie love slaves who MUST love Him. Dear soul, continue your studies. There is no free-standing evil of the Arya/Gnostic/Hindu anti-monotheists. Evil is the absence of God by the choice of unrepentant humans and fallen angels. Evil is an un-thing. Love you, wouldn’t lie to you. This is dangerous evil-mandating territory.

I don’t get it. Gnostics are SOOO anti-female but this is brushed off so lightly. This was foretold, with God cursing Lucifer and his minions with the Woman & Seed. So wouldn’t one’s enlightened self-interest tell us that anything that is anti-Women & Children be from the “Father of Lies & Murder”?

Speaking of suicide, it was a Gnostic practice with the Cathars. So what makes you more “enlightened” than the “Christian Gnostic” Cathars?!?

My flavor favorite thing about Gnostics is symbolizing into meaninglessness. The zohar of Noah’s Ark was just a symbol of enlightenment, not a window. Oh…Thanks for the symbol of enlightenment but not real enlightement. Respectfully, ask God if you’re on the right track.

Hope this is seen as heartfelt and amusing and not harsh and damning. WIll delete if that is the misconstrued case…

 

[curtish1947]

I think you’re right in that God did not intend them to Fall, at least in Catholic teaching. The Judaic view may be different. God told Adam and Eve to NOT eat from the tree. He made it clear. It was satan who convinced them that they could eat from the tree.

As an aside, I hope that this isn’t getting too far off topic, with the current discussion of Catholic and Judaic views of the Fall. I think that it’s important to clarify these, though, and compare them to gnostic views, since some gnostics think that Gnosticism is Christian. By these comparisons, I think it makes it clear that there are no (or very little) similarities of Gnosticism to Christianity, or Judaism (from which Christianity came from).

Also as an aside, Read Proverbs 8 and also the first line in Proverbs 9. In eight (8) someone or something is talking, and her name is something. Her name is not a characteristic. She is not Jesus there. She says she is created, not begotten, but made. She enjoyed God is implied and to every female almost, they know she did by her words and the way they feel and enjoy, I think. In proverbs 9-1, it is not mistakeable, This is a female. A woman if you will, and an unembodied woman. God delighted in her. She is God’s Gal-Pal. She delighted in all that God did. She helped HIm in all of creation, as she is the very first thing, God, ever created, but also God let her, delighting in her, if I recall this correctly.
Her name though, not the characteristic, but the name of her is Wisdom. That is a huge parallel. Only The Bible version says it different than the Gnostics.
…Curtis/K.

 

[gnosisofthomas]

The problem of evil
Ain’t my problem.
To shame and blame God
Is what I must doooo.

Take it up with Lucifer
That enlightened being
Giving gnew gnowledge
That mankind came to rue.

Skiddledy-bum I see
But do not see it’s true.
Skibbledy-dum I feel.
I feel your pain for you.

This poem was revealed to my by experiencing a cup of mocha java that I gnew was one with the divine essence.

Matter and energy cannot be destroyed. So life is eternal. So nobody dies except they pick the CHOICE of the second death, rejecting God, and His honoring free will with the option of Hell Condo, where He is not. So the option is LIFE AND BLESSING versus DEATH AND CURSING. So there is more hope for a famine victim than those who watch and say it’s not my problem, I am not my brother’s keeper, I have my own enlightenment path to worry about…As Christians, Judeo-Christians, we LOVE GOD ALL; AND NEIGHBOR AS SELF FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. So >hint hint< there is no “Christian Gnostic.”

Gnosticism is pre-Christian, and the Roman philosophers hated them with their anti-female fake “ancient” documents and lying. So is lying OK? Or are you a different Gnostic?

Gnostics as I have noted are merely Luciferians, contradicting all God has revealed about Himself and His will. The “problem” of evil is man’s choice, and God’s honoring our free will and not making us zombie love slaves who MUST love Him. Dear soul, continue your studies. There is no free-standing evil of the Arya/Gnostic/Hindu anti-monotheists. Evil is the absence of God by the choice of unrepentant humans and fallen angels. Evil is an un-thing. Love you, wouldn’t lie to you. This is dangerous evil-mandating territory.

I don’t get it. Gnostics are SOOO anti-female but this is brushed off so lightly. This was foretold, with God cursing Lucifer and his minions with the Woman & Seed. So wouldn’t one’s enlightened self-interest tell us that anything that is anti-Women & Children be from the “Father of Lies & Murder”?

Speaking of suicide, it was a Gnostic practice with the Cathars. So what makes you more “enlightened” than the “Christian Gnostic” Cathars?!?

My flavor favorite thing about Gnostics is symbolizing into meaninglessness. The zohar of Noah’s Ark was just a symbol of enlightenment, not a window. Oh…Thanks for the symbol of enlightenment but not real enlightement. Respectfully, ask God if you’re on the right track.

Hope this is seen as heartfelt and amusing and not harsh and damning. WIll delete if that is the misconstrued case…

All I can really say in response is that your view of what Gnosticism is makes no sense to me.

How is Gnosticism anti-female? Can you give some examples? What you described – God cursing Lucifer, women, and their seed is not a Gnostic teaching. So I’m confused…

Suicide was not a practice amongst the Cathars. They would often receive the sacrament of Consolamentum on their deathbeds, because the ascetic requirements following the sacrament were quite strict for the average person – celibacy and vegetarianism, for example. It’s not much different from a Catholic receiving Last Rites.

 

[Lucretius]

For me, one of the interesting questions that Gnosticism poses is that of the nature of the parables. Gnostics will always interpret the parables as allegorical; the understanding of them demands esoteric knowledge. Righty or wrongly, my perception is that most non-Gnostic Christians interpret the parables in a literal sense.

I have been away from Christianity for a decade or two so I am eager to hear what others think on this matter.

Parables are stories. I doubt that any of the parables Christ told were thought to be literal events, in the sense that they actually happened. They might of happened, but the point is the story, and what the story points to, not if it actually happened.

However, the events of Christ’s life, and the events recorded in the Old Testament, which I think you meant, are a different story. There are many ways of interpreting Scripture. Regarding the Genesis narrative, I think the best way to describe the Church’s position is this: that Genesis describes a literal event in mythological language.

Also, there are different layers of interpretation on the same text. For example, Moses made the Bronze Serpent, and raised it up in order to heal the people of snake bites. This is the literal reading. However, Christians would point out another layer of interpretation, that Christ (represented by Moses), on His Cross (represented by the Bronze Serpent), was raised up in order to heal the people of their sins (represented by snake bites: also notice the connection with Genesis, as the Satan caused Eve to fall into sin; the snake “poisoned” her). We are all poisoned by the snake, and thus need the Bronze Serpent raised. We are all in sin, and thus need the Son of Man raised on His Cross.

Christi pax,

Lucretius