Ask a Pagan (Again!)

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Lokabrenna

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I wasn’t intending to post a part three as I’m pretty sure I’ve answered most (if not all) of the most common questions folks have regarding Paganism(s), and given the reactions of some people to the last thread (something about “cleansing the site of Satanism”) and such, I bet some people are sick of me and my attempts to enter dialogue with people/clear up some HUGE misconceptions, but I had fun last time and I think the two threads spawned some interesting discussions.

I notice there’s an interesting discussion re: the gods going on on the apologetics board, but I like to steer clear of that area as Catholic apologetics is (obviously) not my area of expertise.

So, as I said, I’m not sure if anyone has any questions that I haven’t already answered, but if that is the case, shoot! (And don’t say: “I hope this doesn’t offend you,” it won’t lol.)
 
Are you familiar with the two word Wiccan creed, “Harm None”?

Why is it that the majority of Pagan women won’t extend that protection to unborn human beings?
 
Well, how about we start a branch of the “gods” discussion here? I think we’ve already dealt with the sense in which you believe the gods are “real,” but I’d be interested in hearing more about how you think they are related to “ultimate reality.” I know that there’s a division here between the more neo-pagan types who tend to be somewhat pantheistic and see the gods as aspects of the divine, and the “hard polytheist” reconstructionist folks who seem to have what I’d call a fundamentally atheistic view of ultimate reality, with the gods being limited beings within a basically chaotic universe. (Or is this a mistaken interpretation on my part?)

Edwin
 
Well, how about we start a branch of the “gods” discussion here? I think we’ve already dealt with the sense in which you believe the gods are “real,” but I’d be interested in hearing more about how you think they are related to “ultimate reality.” I know that there’s a division here between the more neo-pagan types who tend to be somewhat pantheistic and see the gods as aspects of the divine, and the “hard polytheist” reconstructionist folks who seem to have what I’d call a fundamentally atheistic view of ultimate reality, with the gods being limited beings within a basically chaotic universe. (Or is this a mistaken interpretation on my part?)

Edwin
If those gods and goddesses are more than stone and story, why are public highschools being allowed to teach about the Greek and Roman religion in English classes?

We had to learn the individual characteristics of all the gods and goddesses in English class. We were even tested on them.
 
Yes, yes quite. I often weave in the family history and the powers of Zeus, Athena, Poseidon, ad nauseum into my conversations. The words of wisdom that fell off their stone lips. Amazing. I love to slip in their family histories when I make my comparisons and contrasts.
 
So, as I said, I’m not sure if anyone has any questions that I haven’t already answered, but if that is the case, shoot!
So why is your religion any more true than, say, Rastafarianism?

Peace,
 
Are you familiar with the two word Wiccan creed, “Harm None”?

Why is it that the majority of Pagan women won’t extend that protection to unborn human beings?
There is at least one Wiccan member here who can elaborate further on this subject, but the Wiccan Rede is a LOT longer than two words. The full version is here: wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm

Now, I’m not Wiccan so I can’t really speak with authority regarding this matter, but I do know there are Wiccans who are on both sides of the abortion debate, and there are those who view the debate as much more complicated than simply being “pro-life” and “pro-choice”, different traditions also disagree regarding the definition of “harm”. Some believe that “harm none” includes animals, so they’re vegetarian or vegan, others do not.

As for non-Wiccan Pagans (like myself), it varies, but in general it’s left to the individual to make a decision for themselves regarding controversial subjects like abortion.
Well, how about we start a branch of the “gods” discussion here? I think we’ve already dealt with the sense in which you believe the gods are “real,” but I’d be interested in hearing more about how you think they are related to “ultimate reality.” I know that there’s a division here between the more neo-pagan types who tend to be somewhat pantheistic and see the gods as aspects of the divine, and the “hard polytheist” reconstructionist folks who seem to have what I’d call a fundamentally atheistic view of ultimate reality, with the gods being limited beings within a basically chaotic universe. (Or is this a mistaken interpretation on my part?)
You have it half right, “hard” polytheists generally believe that the gods and goddesses exist and that the gods are all individuals (not part of an "ultimate reality, as you put it), whereas soft polytheists believe that all gods and goddesses are “aspects” of the Divine Source, Ultimate Reality, whatever. An atheist would say “the gods don’t exist” but to a hard polytheist, they definitely do exist as individual beings, maybe not all-powerful, all-knowing beings, but they’re there.

I should also note that reconstructionists are more likely to be hard polytheists, but that’s not necessary the case. I’m not a recon and I’m a hard polytheist.
If those gods and goddesses are more than stone and story, why are public highschools being allowed to teach about the Greek and Roman religion in English classes?

We had to learn the individual characteristics of all the gods and goddesses in English class. We were even tested on them.
I was tested on the characteristics of Greek gods and goddesses in my Catholic elementary school, but see (name removed by moderator)'s response below. For better or worse, Classical Greece has had a significant impact on Western culture. Ask yourself what the knee-jerk response is when people complain about Pagan goddesses on their state flags or whatnot? “No one worships those gods anymore.” Even if the majority did suddenly say: “Hey, these are Pagan gods, separation of church and state!” are we going to suddenly change the days of the week? The names of the planets? What about all the businesses who are named for Pagan gods and goddesses which aren’t expressly used for religious purposes? I wouldn’t want to be the politician who has to sort through that mess!
So why is your religion any more true than, say, Rastafarianism?
shrugs I don’t claim my religion is true for anyone else. Rastafarians can believe what they like. To quote Thomas Jefferson: “But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”
 
shrugs I don’t claim my religion is true for anyone else.
“For me” 2+2=4. What does 2+2 equal “for you?” “For me” the speed of light in a vaccum is 186,000 miles per second. What is the speed of light in a vaccum “for you?” “For me” water consists of 2 atoms of hydorgen and 1 atom of oxygen. What atoms make up water “for you?”

The point being that God either exists as Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit or not. Jesus of Nazareth was either the Second Person of the Holy Trinity made flesh and dwelling among us or he was not. These things are either true or false. They are not true “for me” and false “for you.”

So, why do you believe that Vanic Paganism is true?

Peace,
 
“For me” 2+2=4. What does 2+2 equal “for you?”
Sometimes 2+2 does not equal 4. There’s a whole branch of philosophical math where there’s more than one answer to a question. I was very good at that sort of math!

The other things that you mentioned can be scientifically tested in controlled conditions. I can prove that water is made up of particular particles. If religious claims were provable, there would be no need to have so many religions.
The point being that God either exists as Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit or not. Jesus of Nazareth was either the Second Person of the Holy Trinity made flesh and dwelling among us or he was not. These things are either true or false. They are not true “for me” and false “for you.”
So, why do you believe that Vanic Paganism is true?
The notion that there is “one truth” that applies to everyone isn’t something that most (if any) Pagans believe. I can’t give you a book and say: “My religion is true because this book said so,” that’s not how an orthopraxic religion works. Some have reason to believe that a god or goddess made contact with them, and that’s fine for them, but is it really going to convince anyone else? For me personally, it just so happened that Vanic Paganism meshed with my values. I wish I could tell you I had a crazy mystical experience that convinced me that my path is true, but I haven’t, and you wouldn’t believe me anyways.
 
You have it half right, “hard” polytheists generally believe that the gods and goddesses exist and that the gods are all individuals (not part of an "ultimate reality, as you put it), whereas soft polytheists believe that all gods and goddesses are “aspects” of the Divine Source, Ultimate Reality, whatever. An atheist would say “the gods don’t exist” but to a hard polytheist, they definitely do exist as individual beings, maybe not all-powerful, all-knowing beings, but they’re there.
An atheist, in my definition (and the one generally used by monotheists–I recognize that obviously the ancient Romans, for instance, used the word differently when they called us atheists for rejecting the traditional gods!), is someone who does not believe in an intelligent First Cause. Yet again, we run into the problem of non-monotheists not recognizing that for monotheists God and “the gods” are completely different kinds of beings, far more different from each other than “the gods” are from us.

Monotheists do not claim that instead of many gods there is just one. We claim that there is one ultimate Reality, one ultimate Cause of all other reality, and that everything else is created by that one being and thus radically other than (and radically dependent on) the Creator.

Many “polytheists” agree with us (most Hindus, for instance). A “hard polytheist” who denies the existence of such a supreme Deity is, from our perspective, philosophically indistinguishable from an atheist/agnostic (although to me at least this kind of “atheism” seems much more interesting and appealing than the standard materialistic kind).

Edwin
 
If those gods and goddesses are more than stone and story, why are public highschools being allowed to teach about the Greek and Roman religion in English classes?

We had to learn the individual characteristics of all the gods and goddesses in English class. We were even tested on them.
I think most people agree that public schools can teach about religion, so I’m not sure what the nature of your objection is. Of course it’s hard to teach about a religion in a fair way that won’t cause legitimate offense (and it’s even harder to avoid any form of offense whatsoever, though that’s probably not a worthy goal anyway) to either believers or unbelievers in a context where neither belief nor unbelief is legitimately to be presumed. When I taught Western Civ in a state university, I once puzzled and shocked some of my students by carefully avoiding any language that assumed that I knew that ancient Egyptian beliefs were false. I pointed out that as a Christian, naturally I did not hold those beliefs, but as a professor in a secular institution I was in no position to pronounce one way or the other. But this is a difficult dance to dance.

Edwin
 
Sometimes 2+2 does not equal 4. There’s a whole branch of philosophical math where there’s more than one answer to a question. I was very good at that sort of math!
I would very much like to see you build a bridge, launch a rocket or bake a cake with “philosophical math.”
The other things that you mentioned can be scientifically tested in controlled conditions. I can prove that water is made up of particular particles. If religious claims were provable, there would be no need to have so many religions.
I would say that Christ risen from the dead as testified to by the Apostles and the martyrs who followed them is quite a lot of proof. We accept many historical claims as true based on much less.
The notion that there is “one truth” that applies to everyone isn’t something that most (if any) Pagans believe.
And the notion that the earth is round “for me” but flat “for you” is something that no grown up adult should accept.
I can’t give you a book and say: “My religion is true because this book said so,” that’s not how an orthopraxic religion works.
Nor can I point to any such book. I believe the Bible gives us truth not because of the Bible itself, but rather because of the origins of the Bible and the testimony of those who lived with Christ and died for the sake of Him and His Church.
Some have reason to believe that a god or goddess made contact with them, and that’s fine for them, but is it really going to convince anyone else?
And those experiences are either true or false. They are not true “for them” or false “for someone else.”
For me personally, it just so happened that Vanic Paganism meshed with my values. I wish I could tell you I had a crazy mystical experience that convinced me that my path is true, but I haven’t, and you wouldn’t believe me anyways.
And if in the future your values change, will the truth change along with them? The bottom line is that you haven’t searched for authentic truth. You’ve picked a fairy tale that suited you.

Peace,
 
Are you familiar with the two word Wiccan creed, “Harm None”?
Lokabrenna cited wicca.com/celtic/wicca/rede.htm as being the full version of the Wiccan Rede. The version in my tradition is several thousand words long. The explanation is tens of thousands of words long.

The short version of the Wiccan Rede is “An it harm none, Do what ye Will.”

The crucial word here is “Will”, which is from θέλημα. The idea being that what one does is in harmony with both the Universe, and one’s inner self.

Very few people are in harmony with themselves, much less with the world around them. To expect those who are not in harmony with themselves, to be aware of, and in harmony with the outside world, is absurd.

It is all to easy to conflate “Do what ye will” with “Do what you like”. The two are not the same. The former requires a responsibility that the latter denies exist.
Why is it that the majority of Pagan women won’t extend that protection to unborn human beings?
Not all Pagans are Wiccan. As such, the Wiccan Rede is not binding upon them.

Bracket that.

I can not speak for all pagans. I do not speak for all Wiccans. Arguably, I do not even speak for myself.

Bracket that.

My guess, and this is only a guess, is that most pagan women would not have an abortion, but would not deny those who want an abortion, the ability to undergo that operation.

Under the Wiccan Rede, an abortion is ethically acceptable if, and only if, the woman is willing to assume all of the responsibility involved in having the abortion. This means accepting both the negative effects, and the positive effects.

This also means determining why one is having an abortion. “Inconvenience” is not an acceptable reason. To save the life of the woman is acceptable.

There is a spectrum. Judaism has explored the various scenarios, and come up with answers that, whilst not definitive, are pointers based on fairly solid grounds of logic and reason. Interestingly, despite starting from different axioms and premises, Catholicism has come up with a similar, albeit more restricted set of conditions under which abortion is acceptable.

I haven’t read any similar exploration of the Rede and abortion. OTOH, I tend to ignore that which is not in the direct lineage of the tradition I’m in. On the gripping hand, because the rules, definitions, limitations, and releases, that the Rede provides, unfold only as one grows in awareness, material on the Rede and ethics can easily appear to be in the “how many angles can dance on pinhead” category, to those who haven’t achieved a degree self-harmonization.

Thinking out load:
  • Abortion is acceptable when medically required. Not “medically convenient”, as was standard practice of the wealthy in the United States, prior to Roe v Wade. Required as in, if the foetus is not aborted, both the foetus and the mother will die.
I’ve too much else to do, to write an essay on abortion and the Rede. Especially if the correlation with Anglican, Jewish and Catholic sentiment is included. Something that almost have to be included, due to its history.

Abortion is a push button issue. Press it, and an emotional debate will follow. Few other issues are flashpoints that debate as much emotional fire as abortion.

Amber
 
The point being that God either exists as Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit or not.
In the second century, to proclaim that God exists as a Trinity, would be to proclaim that which was heretical.
So, why do you believe that Vanic Paganism is true?
As a general rule, Pagans do not believe that there is one true way.

Pagans do have fairly strong opinions that there is one correct way to do a specific ritual, when they are participants in the specific ritual. If they are not participants in the ritual, then whatever way you do the ritual is fine, because it involves you, and not them.

Amber
 
In the second century, to proclaim that God exists as a Trinity, would be to proclaim that which was heretical.
Really? Perhaps you can point to the person who was condemned as a heretic in the second century for believing in the Trinity in the sense defined as dogma in the 4th century?

This is, of course, an anachronistic question. Just as anachronistic as your absurd claim.

Edwin
 
In the second century, to proclaim that God exists as a Trinity, would be to proclaim that which was heretical.
To begin with, that’s not the case. But even assuming that it was just for the sake of argument…So what? Popular opinion does not alter reality. The Arians were simply in error. The reality of the nature of Christ did not change at Nicea. Defining truth does not create truth.
As a general rule, Pagans do not believe that there is one true way.
I’m sorry to be rude, but that’s just childish. Either God was manifested Haile Selassie I or the Rastas are wrong. Either Joseph Smith was led by an Angel to some golden plates or he was a fraud. Either God dictated the Koran through Mohammed or he did not. I could go on, but you get the picture.
Pagans do have fairly strong opinions that there is one correct way to do a specific ritual, when they are participants in the specific ritual.
Based on what? If all truth is relative and one person’s belief is just as valid as any other person’s belief then how dare anyone have any strong opinions about anything?
 
I’m sorry to be rude, but that’s just childish. Either God was manifested Haile Selassie I or the Rastas are wrong. Either Joseph Smith was led by an Angel to some golden plates or he was a fraud. Either God dictated the Koran through Mohammed or he did not.
These things are true for specific groups of people (Rastafarians, Mormons, and Muslims respectively) but they’re not my truth. If you want to believe the moon is made of green cheese, go ahead and believe it, but don’t tell me that I should believe the moon is made of green cheese, or I will laugh in your face. There are people who believe that we never landed on the moon; there are still people who believe the Earth is flat. I head of a (Catholic) group that wants to bring back a geocentric view of the universe. They are all welcome to believe what they like, their beliefs don’t affect me one bit.
Based on what? If all truth is relative and one person’s belief is just as valid as any other person’s belief then how dare anyone have any strong opinions about anything?
Easy, because belief doesn’t matter as much as practice does. In a group of Vanic Pagans, for instance, it doesn’t matter if A believes that the deities are archetypes and B believes that the deities are actual beings, what matters is that everyone has gathered together and agreed on a ritual that will be performed that day. As long as everyone can act in a respectful manner. I’ve never heard of a ritual where anyone stands at the door and says: “Do you believe X about [deity]?” and denies entry to people based on their response.

Now, groups often have a particular set of beliefs that members must subscribe to to be a member of the group (ie. that gods are actual beings, not archetypes) and restrict membership based on that criteria, but the same is true for any secular club or society.
 
LOL! This is a great idea!!!
I think I will start my own called something like: “Ask a Woman Who Does Not Want To Be Oppressed”!!! (or, as they might call it here, a “feminist”)
Well, I noticed a few “Ask a ____” so I thought: “Why not?”
Ooh, I’m a feminist! However I think your thread title’s a little wordy. 😃
 
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