Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[victory12]

Jude 1.23

The rejection and denial of Christ is paganism’s central problem. That action attracts Evil (whether or not a person who practices paganism wishes to believe it).

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virtual assistant

 

[Lokabrenna]

Don’t know if I should start a separate thread, but, as the title is “Ask a Pagan” it would seem that this is the place to ask:

Is there any belief that you have that you have had to conform yourself to? That is, you wouldn’t believe it except that <fill in the blank with Higher Power/Mother Earth/The Goddess/Deity/Universe/Cosmos> has somehow revealed this to you?

If so, what are they?

If not, why not? How is it that the Universe (or fill in the blank with your chosen nomenclature) agrees with YOU on every principle/truth/doctrine?

In the interest of fair play I will give a few of mine:

-Divorce and re-marriage: I would LOVE it if I could celebrate with my friends their marriage to their new honeys. However, sadly, I cannot edit the message of The Creator to suit my liking, so I must change my views to be in conformity to that which has been revealed.

-Artificial birth control: I would love to be able to take a pill and not have to ever think about getting pregnant. But, sadly, see above rationale.

The gods generally don’t try and micromanage someone’s life by dictating to them things that they can and cannot do. There’s no concept of “sin” in the Christian sense. However, I would say that some of them are more demanding spiritually to certain people. For instance, someone might be told “I don’t want you to worship [other deity].” or “Don’t eat this food that’s associated with me,” but relationships between deities and humans are different for everyone, so the same deity who might be strict with one person might require few things from another. Some traditions might also have ritual taboos: Kemetics generally agree that you shouldn’t conduct a ritual if you’re menstruating, my own tradition has a rule that you are not to bring weapons into the ritual space (including, in some cases, toy weapons). Wicca has a rule where you are not to reveal oathbound material to non-initiates

I wish I could elaborate, but I’m one of the odd ducks that doesn’t have a “god phone” as it’s often termed. If the gods want something more of me, they’re perfectly capable of asking. Actually, it’s interesting that you mentioned divorce, because in my tradition, even the gods get divorced/separated! (Skadi and Njord couldn’t come to a compromise as to where they would live as a married couple, so they parted amicably.) Most couples do stay together, however, even if one or the other is unfaithful, one other exception is Freya, whose husband disappears and basically leaves her a single mother (that doesn’t stop her from taking many, many lovers). So there are examples of all sorts of relationships in the textual sources. However, even if there weren’t, there’s no divine command that goes “every single one of my followers must be married, with two kids” (despite what some may say).

 

[PRmerger]

The gods generally don’t try and micromanage someone’s life by dictating to them things that they can and cannot do. There’s no concept of “sin” in the Christian sense. However, I would say that some of them are more demanding spiritually to certain people. For instance, someone might be told “I don’t want you to worship [other deity].” or “Don’t eat this food that’s associated with me,” but relationships between deities and humans are different for everyone, so the same deity who might be strict with one person might require few things from another. Some traditions might also have ritual taboos: Kemetics generally agree that you shouldn’t conduct a ritual if you’re menstruating, my own tradition has a rule that you are not to bring weapons into the ritual space (including, in some cases, toy weapons). Wicca has a rule where you are not to reveal oathbound material to non-initiates

I wish I could elaborate, but I’m one of the odd ducks that doesn’t have a “god phone” as it’s often termed. If the gods want something more of me, they’re perfectly capable of asking. Actually, it’s interesting that you mentioned divorce, because in my tradition, even the gods get divorced/separated! (Skadi and Njord couldn’t come to a compromise as to where they would live as a married couple, so they parted amicably.) Most couples do stay together, however, even if one or the other is unfaithful, one other exception is Freya, whose husband disappears and basically leaves her a single mother (that doesn’t stop her from taking many, many lovers). So there are examples of all sorts of relationships in the textual sources. However, even if there weren’t, there’s no divine command that goes “every single one of my followers must be married, with two kids” (despite what some may say).

Ah, very good. Thanks for answering.

So would this be a correct summary of your paradigm: you have never been told that there is something that you wish to do/believe/practice but ought not to because the gods have told you not to?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Ah, very good. Thanks for answering.

So would this be a correct summary of your paradigm: you have never been told that there is something that you wish to do/believe/practice but ought not to because the gods have told you not to?

Well, there are things I wish were true about the gods, sometimes I wish that the elder Heathens had a view of Mother Earth that was more nurturing, but I’m stuck with Nerthus, who isn’t very cuddly. At times, I wish there wasn’t such a focus on the warrior tradition, but that’s what’s survived, so I have to deal with it.

But for the most part, the gods haven’t told me explicitly to not do something. Some things are common sense, IMO: Don’t steal, it hurts people and raises shop prices, which is bad for everyone.

 

[vsedriver]

As for non-Wiccan Pagans (like myself), it varies, but in general it’s left to the individual to make a decision for themselves regarding controversial subjects like abortion.

Is that the same as saying the individual can decide what is sinful and what isn’t? AKA what is wrong and what is right?

 

[PRmerger]

But for the most part, the gods haven’t told me explicitly to not do something. Some things are common sense, IMO: Don’t steal, it hurts people and raises shop prices, which is bad for everyone.

Fair enough.

And if, by some route, you did get a message that you had to do something you really didn’t want to do, would you be compelled to do this?

 

[vsedriver]

shrugs I don’t claim my religion is true for anyone else.

Do you believe your religion is true? and what does truth mean to you?

 

[vsedriver]

In the second century, to proclaim that God exists as a Trinity, would be to proclaim that which was heretical.

 

[vsedriver]

But the simplest explanation is that the gods have made it known (through dreams, during prayer, from an analysis of their particular cults) that they want to be worshiped a certain way.

why do gods want to be worshiped? what’s in it for them? What makes them worthy of worship?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Fair enough.

And if, by some route, you did get a message that you had to do something you really didn’t want to do, would you be compelled to do this?

It depends on what is being asked of me. Is it something illegal? Then no, that is non-negotiable with me. Is it something that I am capable of accomplishing within a reasonable time frame? Then I don’t see it as problematic. It’s also considered perfectly acceptable to argue (or at least, respectfully negotiate) with deities.

For instance, let’s say Freyja communicates to me that she would really like an expensive gold necklace for her altar. I’m well within my rights to say: “I’m sorry, I don’t have the money for it right now, but if you GIVE me enough money, I will buy you the necklace,” and then I’d better follow through with that promise. I don’t know anyone (human or otherwise) who would put up with someone who constantly breaks their promises to them!

 

[PRmerger]

It depends on what is being asked of me. Is it something illegal? Then no, that is non-negotiable with me. Is it something that I am capable of accomplishing within a reasonable time frame? Then I don’t see it as problematic. It’s also considered perfectly acceptable to argue (or at least, respectfully negotiate) with deities.

For instance, let’s say Freyja communicates to me that she would really like an expensive gold necklace for her altar. I’m well within my rights to say: “I’m sorry, I don’t have the money for it right now, but if you GIVE me enough money, I will buy you the necklace,” and then I’d better follow through with that promise. I don’t know anyone (human or otherwise) who would put up with someone who constantly breaks their promises to them!

Then what is the canon or measuring stick you use to discern whether you must do what the gods demand of you?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Is that the same as saying the individual can decide what is sinful and what isn’t? AKA what is wrong and what is right?

Most Pagan traditions aren’t dualistic in that there is good and there is evil and never shall they meet. (Heathenry comes close, but between order/chaos rather than good/evil.) I think it’s more of a recognition that life is way more complicated than simple black and white.

 

[vsedriver]

I will say that there is a near universal dislike of “fluff bunnies”, but no one can seem to agree to an exact definition of a fluffy bunny. (In general, the term is used for someone who chooses to be Pagan ‘because its cool’, or the type of person who reads one book and then thinks they can be High Priestess of their own coven.)

I’ll use an example that’s a bit closer to “home” for me. There is currently a heated debate among Heathens (and other people who worship Heathen gods) over whether jotun (giant) worship is acceptable.

However, since each kindred (group of Heathens) is independent, there’s no one who goes around and says “this practice is not Heathen, stop it now”, but the jotun-honouring groups might not be welcome in certain Heathen organizations. So there are definitely internal schisms, but there’s not as much conflict between different Pagan religions.

Interesting… how can they even begin a debate when all one has to say is that this is MY truth? What’s so wrong with someone becoming a pagan because it is ‘cool’? Whether or not something is ‘cool’ is an individual truth is it not?

 

[Lokabrenna]

Then what is the canon or measuring stick you use to discern whether you must do what the gods demand of you?

It depends on a bunch of factors: My relationship with the deity in question, the circumstances surrounding the demand, the nature of that demand. I think of the gods as family (in a sense) so to my mind, why wouldn’t I do what they asked of me, provided I was able to do it?

Of course, I think there’s a difference between “stop playing that video game and pay attention to me” and “stop playing video games, period”, the former is a reasonable request, the latter would definitely take some getting used to on my part (although, I think that limiting the amount of time that one plays is a good habit to get into).

 

[PRmerger]

It depends on a bunch of factors: My relationship with the deity in question,

I see. I’m curious about this–how do you have a relationship with a deity? Did you say that you’re not one of the lucky ones who has a “god phone”? So how does this deity communicate with you?

the circumstances surrounding the demand, the nature of that demand. I think of the gods as family (in a sense) so to my mind, why wouldn’t I do what they asked of me, provided I was able to do it?

So let’s say this deity that you’re quite close to asks you to do something sacrificial in nature–let’s say she asks you to continue with a pregnancy that you really don’t want to continue in? How do you decide that you must do what this deity asks of you?

 

[vsedriver]

Interesting. The pagan women I spoke with also had a major focus on the Medieval Church.

When you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. In fact, I bet there are more people familiar with the Medieval Church than the Modern Church. The Medieval Church fits in well with fairy tales and folk lore.

 

[Lokabrenna]

I see. I’m curious about this–how do you have a relationship with a deity? Did you say that you’re not one of the lucky ones who has a “god phone”? So how does this deity communicate with you?

Sometimes through dreams, more often through feelings. I’ll be reading a book and a phrase will jump out at me. Oftentimes, others will report that their offerings are well-received because they feel as if they are at peace, whereas an offering that a deity doesn’t like leaves them feeling the exact opposite. Some actually report hearing the voice of a deity in their head (hence the term “god phone”), I personally view it as a point in my favour that I’m not hearing voices, but that’s just me.

I should note here that direct communication with deities isn’t absolutely necessary (or even the main focus) in some traditions. You can “gift” the deities in Heathenry, and if you notice that you have attracted good fortune as a result, the ritual is considered to be a success, regardless if any deities show up and talk to you. This is what I meant back when I said that sometimes a ritual just works.

So let’s say this deity that you’re quite close to asks you to do something sacrificial in nature–let’s say she asks you to continue with a pregnancy that you really don’t want to continue in? How do you decide that you must do what this deity asks of you?

Well, I couldn’t picture any goddess demanding that I keep a child conceived by rape (which is what it would be since I’m not interested in men) but I honestly couldn’t fathom a situation where having this child would directly benefit the goddess involved. What use is a follower who is miserable because she is forced to care for a baby that she doesn’t want? I’d have to be 100% certain that that is what she actually wants before I’d agree to do anything, if all signs were go, I love and trust the gods, so I suppose I would keep the child, but not without having a long and involved discussion with the deity first. Sometimes deities are so wrapped up in “the big picture” that they forget that things like unwanted children can be a burden on the parents.

 

[Contarini]

When you think about it, it makes a lot of sense. In fact, I bet there are more people familiar with the Medieval Church than the Modern Church. The Medieval Church fits in well with fairy tales and folk lore.

A less dismissive and patronizing way of putting it is that Western Christianity, Catholics well as Protestants though in a lesser degree, lost something at the Reformation (maybe prepared for by earlier developments like scholasticism). Magic and mystery were replaced by hard-and-fast doctrinal pronouncements intended to bolster one’s own position against those evil others who claimed to be true Christians but really weren’t. (Of course one can’t just blame the Reformation, but it’s what I study so it’s my personal bete noire).

Neo-pagans are trying to get back what was lost.

Edwin

 

[MorningSong51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokabrenna View Post
It depends on a bunch of factors: My relationship with the deity in question

,

PRmerger:
I see. I’m curious about this–how do you have a relationship with a deity? Did you say that you’re not one of the lucky ones who has a “god phone”? So how does this deity communicate with you?

Quote: Lokabrenna
the circumstances surrounding the demand, the nature of that demand.** I think of the gods as family (in a sense) so to my mind, why wouldn’t I do what they asked of me,**

provided I was able to do it?

PRmerger
So let’s say this deity that you’re quite close to asks you to do something sacrificial in nature-**-let’s say she asks **you to continue with a pregnancy that you really don’t want to continue in? How do you decide that you must do what this deity asks of you?

Lokabrenna - is there a mixture of all members or are they separated at these gatherings? and if these different groups mix together, is there a specific group who have a tendency to dominate one over the other? or have clashes? When invoking the gods or goddesses is there a specific one or many for each particular group?

Interesting, that PRmerger refers the deity as “she” when lokabrenna refer to the deity as “they” - So “they” could mean either female or male deities as there is a distinction, differences between gods and goddesses.

Among many Pagans, there is a strong desire to incorporate the female aspects of the divine in their worship and within their lives, which can partially explain the attitude which sometimes manifests as the veneration of women.[20] Other Neopagans reject the concept of binary gender roles.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_%28contemporary_religions%29

English religious studies scholar Michael York (2003) argued that many ancient Eurasian religions, indigenous religions and contemporary Pagan faiths contained “an identifiable position of common characteristics and understandings” and that they could therefore all be labelled as forms of the same religious movement, which he termed “paganism”. In this way, York maintained that paganism should be treated as a world religion.[24] He went on to identify the characteristics of such a religion, arguing that paganism involved:

(1) a number of both male and female gods, (2) magical practice, (3) emphasis on ritual efficacy, (4) corpospirituality, and (5) an understanding of gods and humans as codependent and related. Paganism has no belief in historic revelation. Instead, this world and the otherworld are intimately interrelated, and while the myths and stories about the gods are chiefly to be understood as metaphors, the divine itself is to be experienced directly.[25]

Such ideas have been supported by contemporary Pagans Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick in their scholarly study of pre-Christian European religion (1995), when they used “paganism” to cover “Nature-venerating indigenous spiritual traditions generally”. They argued that a set of characteristics could be seen in all such religions, which they defined thus:

They are polytheistic, recognizing a plurality of divine beings, which may or may not be avatars or other aspects of an underlying unity/duality/trinity etc.
They view Nature as a theophany, a manifestation of divinity, not as a 'fallen' creation of the latter.
They recognize the female divine principle, called the Goddess (with a capital 'G' to distinguish her from many particular goddesses), as well as, or instead of, the male divine principle, the God.[26] [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism)

 

[PRmerger]

Sometimes through dreams, more often through feelings. I’ll be reading a book and a phrase will jump out at me.

How do you know which deity is speaking to you?

And how does this build and foment a relationship?