Ask a Pagan (Again!)

[PRmerger]

Well, I couldn’t picture any goddess demanding that I keep a child conceived by rape (which is what it would be since I’m not interested in men)

Why is that? Is there something that’s been written or revealed by these goddesses that tells you that a goddess wouldn’t demand that you keep a child conceived by rape? Is there a consensus about this among the deities?

 

[DCNBILL]

Why is that? Is there something that’s been written or revealed by these goddesses that tells you that a goddess wouldn’t demand that you keep a child conceived by rape? Is there a consensus about this among the deities?

One begins to wonder who the god or goddess really is in this type of discussion.

 

[vsedriver]

What I mean by “universal truth” is the idea that there is “one true way”, “one size fits all”, one religion that best fits everyone. That’s not true for modern Pagans–or even polytheists in general–when it comes to belief. There’s no one Truth, there are many truths, in the plural.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, I couldn’t picture any goddess demanding that I keep a child conceived by rape

One begins to wonder who the god or goddess really is in this type of discussion.

Yes, I think so.

I’m really trying to have an open mind on Pagan worship. And I truly have a sincere curiosity about it…but I think my original assumption was correct: paganism is a made-up paradigm in which one projects one’s own self into some entity (deity/goddess/earth/cosmos) in order to affirm one’s self.

The comment above by Loka really illustrates this quite trenchantly.

She “couldn’t picture any goddess demanding” that which she can’t demand herself.

Reason dictates that an entity (deity/goddess etc) will have, to one degree or another, some demands that are disagreeable from our own.

And yet, in this paradigm, one “couldn’t picture” this entity making anything contrary to that which the believer already believes.

 

[Ceil-1]

Sometimes through dreams, more often through feelings. I’ll be reading a book and a phrase will jump out at me.

Trinitarians believe this as well. What is more, visions and apparitions that fit the Trinitarian world view are in abundance, as are phenomena.

What criteria does a “pagan” use to discern a good inspiration from a bad one? Aside from what “floats your boat”?

One must have a lot of confidence in oneself to trust his own judgement. I wonder what happens when defenses fail and the pagan clearly screws up or is mistaken. Does denial come into play, in that cirucumstance?

 

[Lokabrenna]

How do you know which deity is speaking to you?

You can always ask. Aside from that, deities have their own areas of expertise, and someone might find a message from a god/dess in poetry, in a particular song, even in animal form (someone starts honouring Odin, for instance, and all of a sudden ravens start appearing everywhere around her when her area isn’t known for attracting ravens).

And how does this build and foment a relationship?

Well, it’s one form of communication, and communication is essential for any relationship.

Why is that? Is there something that’s been written or revealed by these goddesses that tells you that a goddess wouldn’t demand that you keep a child conceived by rape? Is there a consensus about this among the deities?

The reason why I can’t come up with a very good answer is because the idea is very “out there” (I even asked for some (name removed by moderator)ut from co-religionists I respect, and they were quite baffled by the idea). As I said, the gods don’t tend to micro-manage every aspect of our lives, they have bigger things to worry about.

As for a consensus among the deities, certain deities would probably be more likely to recommend certain courses of action than others. Frigga for example is a very maternal deity, she’s best known for attempting (and failing) to protect her son. Freya, on the other hand, becomes very upset when the gods try to marry her off to a giant without her consent. She does have children, but her primary concern is the fecundity/fertility of the land itself, not just humans. One could (and people often do) argue based on the available lore that she would be more supportive of women who are seeking abortions, but it’s not strictly spelled out in the original texts (they were stories meant to entertain–not moralize).

 

[Lokabrenna]

Interesting… how can they even begin a debate when all one has to say is that this is MY truth? What’s so wrong with someone becoming a pagan because it is ‘cool’? Whether or not something is ‘cool’ is an individual truth is it not?

They are, of course, free to believe what they like (and often do regardless of what other people think of them) but in my experience, it tends to work out in two ways:

a) They grow spiritually and end up taking the religion seriously
b) The novelty wears off so they become bored and leave

I was once a fluffy, read one book in high school and thought it was the be all and end all of Wicca, thing is, I kept reading, and not just Wiccan books, but other Pagan traditions as well, and I kept reading until eventually I said: “You know, Wicca isn’t for me…”

 

[Lokabrenna]

What criteria does a “pagan” use to discern a good inspiration from a bad one? Aside from what “floats your boat”?

There are lots of ways that people go about verifying their UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis), here are just a few of them:

-Examination of the primary texts for something similar to one’s own inspiration
-collaborating with other people (most of the time, someone else has had the same experience with the same deity)
-asking for verification from the deity (“Is this really what you meant to say?”)

There was a recent blog post that I read on the subject where the author pointed out that it’s important to judge the “usefulness” of one’s inspiration. It’s all well and good if a deity tells you their shoe size (assuming they even wear shoes) but is the inspiration particularly useful? Not really.

One must have a lot of confidence in oneself to trust his own judgement. I wonder what happens when defenses fail and the pagan clearly screws up or is mistaken. Does denial come into play, in that cirucumstance?

I think it’s human nature to refuse to admit that we’re wrong about anything, regardless of religion. It’s tough to admit that you’re mistaken about something (I’ve done it many times on this forum and elsewhere). Sometimes people screw up, sometimes they screw up big time. You just have to pick yourself up, admit you made a mistake, and move on as best you can.

 

[Lokabrenna]

As a woman with a philosophy minor (actually I have enough credits for the major but didn’t file soon enough) I’d say it’s easy to be critical of something you know nothing about. But it does explain why I have difficulty following your reasoning.

True, after all, the only course I took on philosophy was one on philosophy and religion taught by an atheist, and it wasn’t one of my more enjoyable classes. I would also say that my incomprehensibility probably has something to do with the way monotheists and polytheists see the world. There are aspects of both that seem baffling to either side. It might just be me though.

 

[PRmerger]

The reason why I can’t come up with a very good answer is because the idea is very “out there” (I even asked for some (name removed by moderator)ut from co-religionists I respect, and they were quite baffled by the idea).

I am not understanding, Loka. What is so “out there” about continuing in a pregnancy?

And what constitutes something being “out there”? How does one define it?

And! Why does something have to be not “out there” in order for it to be commanded by the gods?

IOW: why should something that the gods command be something that you have no problem with?

As I said, the gods don’t tend to micro-manage every aspect of our lives, they have bigger things to worry about.

Fair enough.

Again, how does one determine that it’s a mini-issue or a maco-issue?

And if you did get a message from a deity that was a mini-issue, why wouldn’t you be compelled to follow it?

As for a consensus among the deities, certain deities would probably be more likely to recommend certain courses of action than others. Frigga for example is a very maternal deity, she’s best known for attempting (and failing) to protect her son. Freya, on the other hand, becomes very upset when the gods try to marry her off to a giant without her consent. She does have children, but her primary concern is the fecundity/fertility of the land itself, not just humans. One could (and people often do) argue based on the available lore that she would be more supportive of women who are seeking abortions, but it’s not strictly spelled out in the original texts (they were stories meant to entertain–not moralize).

Interesting. Thanks.

And as they were meant to entertain and not moralize, how is it that you know anything about these deities? That is, I don’t know anything really about Cinderella and what she would command to me, except for stories that are entertaining. Thus, I certainly wouldn’t assert that she would never command me to continue in my pregnancy based on entertaining stories about her.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Hello Lokabrenna,

Does mainstream Paganism have a theory of why evil exists in the world?

 

[Lokabrenna]

I am not understanding, Loka. What is so “out there” about continuing in a pregnancy?

And what constitutes something being “out there”? How does one define it?

And! Why does something have to be not “out there” in order for it to be commanded by the gods?

IOW: why should something that the gods command be something that you have no problem with?

What I mean is that it seems so “out of character” for a deity (especially a Norse deity) to impose their will on someone like that (without a very good reason). Ideally, I should think, a god/dess would know a person well enough to know that they would be extremely resistant to following such an order. That is not to say that there are not times when the gods ask us to do things that won’t make us uncomfortable in some way.

To put this in perspective, I asked a group of women about the situation you described, and their responses were twofold:

a) I wouldn’t unless the god/dess had a VERY good reason to request such a thing.
b) I would take it as a sign that the goddess in question (Frigga in this case) was saying that I was financially and emotionally ready to care for a child

For myself, as someone who doesn’t want children, I would see such a pregnancy as a burden (especially since I wouldn’t go seeking it in the first place) and such an order would probably destroy (or at least, severely strain) my relationship with a particular deity. Contrast that with a person who wants children, but perhaps the pregnancy hasn’t come at the best time in their life. I think that person would be far more likely to not see the same order in such a harsh light as I would. There are probably other requests that some would balk at and I would jump at the chance to do.

Again, how does one determine that it’s a mini-issue or a maco-issue?

Things I would call “mini-issues” would be simple things like praying for a parking space (which seems to be a Protestant thing), things that impact an individual or an individual family. Macro-issues are things like the depletion of edible fish around the world, keeping cosmic order, “big” issues. However, that doesn’t mean that Frigga won’t respond to prayers from a couple hoping to conceive a child, she just has other things that are slightly higher on her list of priorities.

And if you did get a message from a deity that was a mini-issue, why wouldn’t you be compelled to follow it?

Oh, people get mini-issues from the gods all the time! A goddess like Frigga or Holda might nudge a person to do some house-cleaning (or one might find as they start working with these goddesses that they get the urge to clean house). However, mini-issues aren’t just given out by the gods though, sometimes one’s ancestors do the nudging (especially when the issue concerns an individual person). Keep in mind that I come from a tradition that has more of a focus on ancestors than most, and there are traditions that don’t put such an emphasis on ancestors. (The Romans, for instance, have gods devoted to such mundane things as door hinges, so the gods in that pantheon wouldn’t necessarily be as concerned with Big Things as my own gods might be.)

And as they were meant to entertain and not moralize, how is it that you know anything about these deities? That is, I don’t know anything really about Cinderella and what she would command to me, except for stories that are entertaining. Thus, I certainly wouldn’t assert that she would never command me to continue in my pregnancy based on entertaining stories about her.

Stories can entertain AND teach someone something at the same time. Even Jesus told stories to teach lessons. As for Cinderella, I don’t think she was ever worshiped as a goddess, that doesn’t mean that you can’t still take something away from her story (of which there are thousands of variations) but myths weren’t strictly meant as entertainment, they were used to teach listeners about the world they lived in (as they understood it). We also have some examples of prayers that were said (although not many) and names of places that were named for a deity. I don’t think Cinderella has very many places that were named after her (stuff at Disney World doesn’t count).

 

[Warrenton]

What I mean is that it seems so “out of character” for a deity (especially a Norse deity) to impose their will on someone like that (without a very good reason). Ideally, I should think, a god/dess would know a person well enough to know that they would be extremely resistant to following such an order.

What about Leto and Europa?

 

[PRmerger]

What I mean is that it seems so “out of character” for a deity (especially a Norse deity) to impose their will on someone like that (without a very good reason). Ideally, I should think, a god/dess would know a person well enough to know that they would be extremely resistant to following such an order. That is not to say that there are not times when the gods ask us to do things that won’t make us uncomfortable in some way.

That’s what I’m saying, Loka!

What do you do when the gods ask you to do things that make you uncomfortable and are a challenge to you to fulfill?

Surely it stands to reason that in the pantheon of deities and in your multiple relationships with them that one of them is going to challenge you to do something that will make you uncomfortable.

And I suppose, in your time as a pagan, this has happened once or twice. What did you do when a god asked you to do something you felt uncomfortable doing?

 

[PRmerger]

Stories can entertain AND teach someone something at the same time. Even Jesus told stories to teach lessons. As for Cinderella, I don’t think she was ever worshiped as a goddess, that doesn’t mean that you can’t still take something away from her story (of which there are thousands of variations) but myths weren’t strictly meant as entertainment, they were used to teach listeners about the world they lived in (as they understood it). We also have some examples of prayers that were said (although not many) and names of places that were named for a deity. I don’t think Cinderella has very many places that were named after her (stuff at Disney World doesn’t count).

Oh, please don’t misunderstand. I wasn’t saying Cinderella is a goddess. I am just saying that all we know of her is through entertaining stories, and thus if someone asked me, “What would the real Cinderella profess about this important issue?” I would have to respond, “Well, I have no idea as all I know of her is entertaining folk tales.”

Similarly, when someone asks you what a particular deity professes about a particular issue, if all you have are entertaining stories, how do you know what this deity actually believes and proclaims?

 

[Ceil-1]

This is all very intresting, but I find it hard to believe you actually believe there’s some entity by the name of ________ (insert the name of god), you have never actually seen, indulging you.

You systematically reject the notion that these entities could be demons of Christian teaching. Demons would indulge your senses any way you pleased, if for no other purpose than to break any relationship with God you may heretofore had, and likely do worse harm, if able.

Since these entities of inspiration are unseen by you, why do you think they are intrested in your well-being? Are you going on faith that these “deities” think you are worthy of attention? It makes more sense to me that someone or something is having “fun” with you, stroking your ego, perhaps? It seems very risky to me.

 

[Lokabrenna]

That’s what I’m saying, Loka!

What do you do when the gods ask you to do things that make you uncomfortable and are a challenge to you to fulfill?

Surely it stands to reason that in the pantheon of deities and in your multiple relationships with them that one of them is going to challenge you to do something that will make you uncomfortable.

And I suppose, in your time as a pagan, this has happened once or twice. What did you do when a god asked you to do something you felt uncomfortable doing?

That actually isn’t the case (thus far) due to time, privacy, and financial restraints, I’ve restricted my efforts at cultivating deep relationships with most of the gods until I’m not as concerned about those things. In fact, I’m more or less “in the closet” regarding my beliefs offline. The experiences I’ve so far related in my threads are those of others who do experience the gods in a more direct way, and based on what I’ve read.

I think I should also say that sometimes the gods require more from certain people than others. The same god might require a simple offering once a week from one person while another person might make an offering each day. One person might be challenged regularly, but another might only suffer through one or two major challenges (or even none at all).

But to answer your question, I’d trust that the deities would never give me a challenge that they knew I couldn’t handle, to do otherwise would destroy my trust in them, and if I don’t trust them, why continue to honour them?

 

[Warrenton]

I’d trust that the deities would never give me a challenge that they knew I couldn’t handle, to do otherwise would destroy my trust in them, and if I don’t trust them, why continue to honour them?

What about Hector and Akilles?

 

[Lokabrenna]

What about Leto and Europa?

What about Hector and Akilles?

You would have to ask a Hellenic Pagan for answers to those questions. The Greek gods have a different sort of character to my own Norse gods. My gods do a lot less meddling in human affairs, for one.

I know I’ve been going on about myths and how important they are, but it’s also important to understand that gods aren’t static entities that are stuck in the mythic past; they’ve grown and changed and adapted. The gods of today are not exactly the ones that were worshiped by our ancestors. I’m not the same person that I was ten years ago, I’m still me, of course, but I suspect if me and my past self met on the street tomorrow, fur would fly! I think most of us can agree that the modern Church isn’t exactly like the Medieval Church, because we moderns aren’t Medieval people.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Oh, please don’t misunderstand. I wasn’t saying Cinderella is a goddess. I am just saying that all we know of her is through entertaining stories, and thus if someone asked me, “What would the real Cinderella profess about this important issue?” I would have to respond, “Well, I have no idea as all I know of her is entertaining folk tales.”

Similarly, when someone asks you what a particular deity professes about a particular issue, if all you have are entertaining stories, how do you know what this deity actually believes and proclaims?

The short answer is that we don’t (in most cases), we can speculate that “this deity believes x because of this textual evidence, that archaeological evidence, or this account of what occurred during cultic activity dedicated to that deity” but most of the time it’s impossible to definitively say “deity x hates y” (and keep in mind that another deity in the same pantheon might be okay with y).

For instance, racism is a particular bugbear in Heathenry because Heathen gods and symbols have been adopted by racist groups who claim that their racism is justified because the gods are constantly fighting against the jotnar (who are non-whites). This argument falls flat on its face when you consider that the gods are not only descended from the jotnar, they INTERMARRY with them, from this, it might be concluded that the gods aren’t racist, but no particular deity actually comes out and says it explicitly.

Now, you might say “So, since the gods don’t say whether they are for or against racism, doesn’t that make racism okay?” so you might have a better argument if you look at what the people who honoured these gods actually did. The fact that the tribes allowed an Arab man (Ibn Fadlan) to view their most sacred rites is to me a pretty strong argument against racism. Someone might also point out that “racism” is a modern phenomenon, and the ancient people didn’t necessarily discriminate against someone solely due to their skin color, same with homosexuality.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there, but what I am trying to say is that gods do not necessarily have “position statements” that their followers need to adopt (assuming they have any position on a particular issue) just like some humans don’t have a particular opinion on certain issues.