Ask a Pagan, Part 2

[followingtheway]

Hi, I have a couple of questions:

1. 
   *]Do some of you believe in Greek Gods like Zeus, Athena, Ares, Hades and so on?
   *]What happens after one dies? Is there is an underworld like the Greek Hades, or there realms of reward and punishment, such as Heaven and Hell?
   *]Do some of you include Jesus in one of your gods and goddesses?
   
   Paganism, as well Judaism is very interesting.
   
   God bless :byzsoc:
   
   David

 

[Holly3278]

What would it take to convince you of the truth of Christianity, in particular, Catholic Christianity?

 

[Lokabrenna]

What is your basis for believing in more then one god?

and

How do you know that your gods exist? Is there any evidence for their existence?

I think these two questions go together, so I’ll answer them together.
Actually, I rather like IanCorrigan’s post on the subject, as he explains it far more eloquently than I ever could:

HI all - thanks for finding a place for this material. I’ll post my answers to the anti-neo-pagan apologetics article in bits, so they’ll fit.
here’s the first:

---

The Nature of the Gods
Some comments from www.catholic.com’s neopaganism pages, answered.

Many neo-pagans advance the claim that there should not be a single world religion with a single deity or set of deities to be worshiped by all mankind, but rather each group should worship the gods of their ancestors or of their preference.

To be more specific, neopaganism asserts that there is plainly not a single deity or set of deities that is worshiped by all mankind. Simple observation of human interaction with the divine shows that the divine always manifests as multiple persons, forms and beings. In the same way, the core and universal principles of physical nature always produce multiple physical entities. As always, neopagans look to the facts of nature as a model for what the facts of spiritual existence will be.

The plain fact of the multiplicity of divine manifestations has led monotheism into some pretty wild assertions. The notion that all forms of the divine except those described in whoever’s revealed scripture are either simply fantasy or demons has been the traditional resort of the argument. Again, observation fails to support this idea. Descriptions of human relationships with the many-armed, skull-wearing deities of India, or the Gods of Voudoun and West African religion, or the still-simmering Neopagan relationships with the Deities all make it clear that such beings bless and aid their worshippers as surely as the deities of the Bible or Quran ever have.

When we look at material nature, we see a nearly infinite variety of forms and local expressions. In the same way the spiritual world has a riot of gods, local spirits, flows of energy and sacred potentials, which are expressed locally.

Here I shall express my opinion in simple terms. The fact is that I remain unconvinced that there’s only one deity out there who is worthy of worship.

As for how I know my gods exist, or whether I can provide proof of their existence, the fact is that any “proof” I provide is only valid for me. I could say that Freyja came to me in a dream or vision and said: “HEY YOU! Worship me!” (she hasn’t) but would it really be valid for anyone but myself? Nope.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Hi, I have a couple of questions:

Shoot!

1. 
   *]Do some of you believe in Greek Gods like Zeus, Athena, Ares, Hades and so on?

1. 
   Yep! The religion is called Hellenismos, Hellenic polythiesm, Hellenic reconstructist religion, or Hellenic Paganism. Here’s a link for more info and some suggested reading, if you’re interested: ecauldron.net/recongreek.php
   

   *]What happens after one dies? Is there is an underworld like the Greek Hades, or there realms of reward and punishment, such as Heaven and Hell?

   It depends on the belief system, in brief (and remember, beliefs do vary, these are just the beliefs one is most likely to see):
   
   In Wicca: The dead go to the Summerlands/reincarnate
   Kemetic traditions: I believe the heart is weighed against the feather of Ma’at, like in the Book of the Dead
   Hellenismos: Heroes go to the Elysian Fields, regular people exist as shades in the fields of the Asphodels, the wicked go to Tartaros, reincarnation is also a possibility (I believe it’s mentioned in Plato)
   Asatru/Norse Paganism in general: Depends on how you die, most go to Hel (NOT a horrible place, actually), people who die in battle go to Valhalla, some Heathens think that especially wicked people go to a place in Hel called Nastrond (which is not a nice place), people who die by drowning go to Ran’s palace
   Eclectic pagans: Varies
   
   In addition:
   
   Some Pagans (doesn’t matter what tradition) don’t believe in any sort of afterlife.
   
   Others believe that they will go and live with their patron deities (in Norse Paganism, this idea is actually supported by the lore).
   

   *]Do some of you include Jesus in one of your gods and goddesses?

   Some do, yes, but they don’t believe that he’s the only god out there, nor is he the only one worthy of worship, or that there was a historical Jesus but reports of his divinity are greatly exaggerated. (My own view is a bit of both of those). Some don’t believe he ever existed, though.
   

   Paganism, as well Judaism is very interesting.

   I’m a student of religious studies, so I think all religions are interesting in some way.

 

[TimothyH]

…I will try and answer as many questions as I can.

Who do you say that Jesus is?

-Tim-

 

[Lokabrenna]

What would it take to convince you of the truth of Christianity, in particular, Catholic Christianity?

No less than God coming down from on High and saying: “Hey you! I’m real! Also, I’m actually the only deity out here. You’ve been deceived by demons the whole time. Sorry it took Me so long to tell you!” and even then, I’d have some questions.

In all honesty, I don’t know if it’s possible to convince me (isn’t the Holy Spirit supposed to do that, anyways?). The argument that begins with: “Well, the Bible says…” isn’t going to cut it. I don’t accept the Bible as authoritative anymore than you would accept the Eddas to have any authority over you. In fact, even the Eddas don’t have the sort of authority that Christians ascribe to the Bible. (For starters, the Eddas were first written down by Christians).

 

[Lokabrenna]

Who do you say that Jesus is?
-Tim-

I actually answered this in my first “Ask a Pagan” thread, but I’ll repost it here. Pay particular attention to the last line:

Ah, the old “liar, lunatic, or lord” argument, which conveniently neglects a fourth option (ie. “was he simply non-existent?”). I think it’s quite possible that a historical person named Jesus of Nazareth existed, but I think it’s also quite possible that he never existed, or that, perhaps, the “Jesus” of the gospels is a composite figure of sorts of other teachers who were teaching around that same time. Even assuming that Jesus did exist, which “Jesus” would you have me believe in? The “Jesus” of the canonical gospels? The “Jesus” of the heretical so-called “gnostic” gospels? The two figures are quite different.

I suppose my thoughts on the matter are that perhaps Jesus did exist, but I don’t think what’s been written about him is entirely accurate.

(Link to the post in question: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8013832&postcount=11)

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

1. Do ALL Pagans believe in some sort of reincarnation? Most Pagans that I knew of in the “old days” were believers in it.
2. What happens after death for believers of Non-Pagan Religions? Of Pagan Religions?

Thanks in advance----and we’re happy to have you here at CAF.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I actually answered this in my first “Ask a Pagan” thread, but I’ll repost it here. Pay particular attention to the last line:

(Link to the post in question: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8013832&postcount=11)

You would deny the existence of Jesus (despite the enormous mark he left on history, the extra-biblical accounts, and the vast majority of scholars who would agree that he existed) and yet you would affirm the existence of Thor, Odin, and the other gods of the pagan north?

 

[followingtheway]

I’m a student of religious studies, so I think all religions are interesting in some way.

I agree! Thank you for your time.

God bless :byzsoc:

David

 

[Lokabrenna]

1. Do ALL Pagans believe in some sort of reincarnation? Most Pagans that I knew of in the “old days” were believers in it.

Nope! Although some do believe in a form of reincarnation. (Some adherents of Asatru believe that people reincarnate through their family line, but that begs the question: “What happens when the last of your line dies out?”) It’s also important to remember that beliefs in the afterlife changed over time. As an example, there is evidence to suggest that followers of the Norse gods once believed that the deceased would inhabit their graves after death. One family apparently believed they would go live with their ancestors inside a mountain! The belief in Hel and such was a later development.

However, since Pagan religions are (in general) very “this worldly”, I would say that many Pagans don’t worry so much about where they’re going to go after they die. If I had a choice, I’d personally like to go to the Wiccan Summerlands, where the weather is always nice and everyone eats, drinks, and makes merry until they decide to reincarnate again.

1. What happens after death for believers of Non-Pagan Religions? Of Pagan Religions?

Well, for a Pagan who follows a religion like the one the Sumerians practiced, absolutely everyone goes to the same place (and apparently living there sucks). I have heard that non-Heathens/non-Norse Pagans go to Hel (it’s really not a horrible place, more quiet and peaceful than anything). A popular explanation that I’ve heard is that everyone goes where they believe they will go: Christians go to Heaven (or Hell)…atheists…just cease to exist…I have no idea where agnostics go, and of course, some Pagans don’t believe in life after death, so it’s not an issue for them.

However, I will say that I’ve never heard of any Pagan saying that non-Pagans will go someplace awful when they die just for not being Pagan, though they probably do exist somewhere. I don’t believe that’s true, personally.

Thanks in advance----and we’re happy to have you here at CAF.

Aw, thank you! That is very kind of you to say.

 

[Lokabrenna]

You would deny the existence of Jesus (despite the enormous mark he left on history, the extra-biblical accounts, and the vast majority of scholars who would agree that he existed) and yet you would affirm the existence of Thor, Odin, and the other gods of the pagan north?

Actually, I think it would be quite hypocritical of me if I did believe in the gods of the North and turned around and said: “But YOUR GOD doesn’t exist! Muahahahaha!”

So, I will sum up my views again:

-I do think that YHVH exists, but I see him as one god (small ‘g’ god) among many, certainly not the ONLY god, and certainly not the only one worthy of worship

-I think it is quite possible that a historical Jesus existed (it was a pretty common name back then). However…

-I don’t take the Bible’s claims at face value. As a student of religious studies (which is distinct from theology), I don’t look at texts from a faith-based perspective. Rather, I see all sacred texts (including the eddas) as being products of a particular time, written by particular people, with a particular agenda.

A faith-based claim might be that: “Paul wrote all the letters that tradition ascribes to him.”

A religious studies scholar, on the other hand, might say: “These letters look as if they were written by Paul’s followers (the question of which letters were and which were not is a matter of debate).” The explanation for this stems from the practice of attributing your text to someone more famous than you in order to give the text more credibility (this has been done A LOT throughout history). Look at it this way, before there were laws preventing this sort of thing, would people be more apt to accept something a nobody follower of Paul wrote, or something that bore Paul’s name? Uh, yeah, I’ll go with the letter with the well-known name attached to it.

tl;dr version: I have a very different perspective regarding the Bible’s claims than Christians or Jews might, a perspective which is influenced by the secular, academic discipline of religious studies.

I should also mention that these views often upset and offend devout religious people who view their texts as describing actual historical events, but the reality is that the discipline doesn’t make the assumption that everyone shares the same religious views.

Anyways, there’s your long-winded explanation of religious studies 101. I should do some digging and come up with a more succinct explanation, but that’s the best I could do for now.

 

[samiam1611]

Hi Loka, gatewood, or anyone else,

To your knowledge, is it possible to be a pagan and an atheist at the same time? I like nature a lot and love the idea of Wicca and fairies, an altar, candles, incense, fire circles…but I do not believe in a god, goddess, gods, or higher power (but of all of those I like higher power the best - very nonspecific and NOT personal or knowable.)
Are there any nontheistic pagan religions out there? Would there be any point to doing it if I didn’t believe? Just for fun. Is that bad to do a religion just for fun?
I am not spiritual. I have no spiritual needs. I just think Wicca (or something along those lines) sounds fun. Is that bad?
If you know of any sects of Wicca or paganism that are nontheistic could you tell me about them?

Thanks!

oh yeah and do you guys practice magic? i know you mentioned you don’t cast spells and stuff, but do you do magic-type rituals? a la charmed and true blood, pricking your finger and putting it in a goblet, that type of thing. do you ever use crystals?

 

[Imryl]

-I do think that YHVH exists, but I see him as one god (small ‘g’ god) among many, certainly not the ONLY god, and certainly not the only one worthy of worship

Thank you for responding earlier Lokabrenna, however the first post directed to me, but also this statement, do not answer my question. Now, I’m not asking this out of some sort of malice or to back you into a corner, but I am truly curious how a pagan justifies a belief in many gods. What is it exactly that you see in the created universe that points to more than one god? In your opinion, what power does a god have? Can they create things from nothing? Do they have to sustain it’s existence, or just create some particular thing once and for all? If they can create something once and for all, and then leave it to it’s own devices, why?

I’m asking because I am a satanist. However, these days, many satanists say they are polytheistic, e.g. Satan is one of many gods. I have yet to get a good explanation as to why they believe the things they do. So, I’m going to take a wild stab and assume they probably co-opted their beliefs by assimilating different pagan perspectives.

They however… don’t know enough to defend their position.

But maybe a pagan does.

I invite you to take your time with this. Take a day or two to think this through if you need to. There’s no need to respond immediately… but I would eventually like to get a nice thorough, thoughtful answer.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

In Paganism are all of the gods perfect? Meaning, in each of them is there found all perfection or are some lacking in perfection?

 

[TrueLight]

I really don’t believe there should be a thread celebrating Paganism on CAF.

If Atheism is banned, how can a thread on “honoring” false gods and/or goddesses be allowed?

I understand the idea of “ask a pagan” but this seems more like a place for pagans to hang out and celebrate paganism.

 

[zab]

No less than God coming down from on High and saying: “Hey you! I’m real! Also, I’m actually the only deity out here. You’ve been deceived by demons the whole time. Sorry it took Me so long to tell you!” and even then, I’d have some questions.

In all honesty, I don’t know if it’s possible to convince me (isn’t the Holy Spirit supposed to do that, anyways?). The argument that begins with: “Well, the Bible says…” isn’t going to cut it. I don’t accept the Bible as authoritative anymore than you would accept the Eddas to have any authority over you. In fact, even the Eddas don’t have the sort of authority that Christians ascribe to the Bible. (For starters, the Eddas were first written down by Christians).

I just watched a very interesting video about a former atheist. You will probably identify with much of what she says.
vimeo.com/26016608

 

[Lokabrenna]

Hi Loka, gatewood, or anyone else,

To your knowledge, is it possible to be a pagan and an atheist at the same time?
If you know of any sects of Wicca or paganism that are nontheistic could you tell me about them?

To be honest, I wasn’t sure how to answer this question. Some Pagans see deities as archetypes, but is that the same as atheism? Not quite, I don’t think. Many Pagan traditions expect that their members will be polytheist in some way.

You might be interested in these threads on The Cauldron forum:
“Atheism and Witchcraft”
ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=13936.0

“Nature Reverence and Atheism”
ecauldron.net/forum/index.php?topic=10315.0

This may sound a little blunt, but in my humble opinion, practicing magic and such “because it’s fun” will probably land you in a lot of hot water. Many Pagans already have to deal with “fluffy bunnies” and “roleplayers” who think that the religion is some sort of LARP. Have you considered that perhaps what you need is not religion, but a philosophy?

oh yeah and do you guys practice magic? i know you mentioned you don’t cast spells and stuff, but do you do magic-type rituals? a la charmed and true blood, pricking your finger and putting it in a goblet, that type of thing. do you ever use crystals?

The magic that you see on “True Blood” and “Charmed” is Hollywood magic. It’s meant to be flashy and interesting. Magic(k) as witches practice is, is quite different. However, witchcraft (small w) itself is a practice, not a belief, you don’t have to be of a particular belief system to practice it.

As for magic, in my tradition, there is a type of magic known as seidr which basically involves going into trance and prophesying/working magic/wandering the nine worlds. I don’t practice it though.

I’m sorry I couldn’t give you more information. I just had a thought, though. You might want to look into “Chaos Magic(k)” I don’t know much about it because it’s…strange and at times nonsensical…maybe you can make sense of it.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Thank you for responding earlier Lokabrenna, however the first post directed to me, but also this statement, do not answer my question. Now, I’m not asking this out of some sort of malice or to back you into a corner, but I am truly curious how a pagan justifies a belief in many gods. What is it exactly that you see in the created universe that points to more than one god? In your opinion, what power does a god have? Can they create things from nothing? Do they have to sustain it’s existence, or just create some particular thing once and for all? If they can create something once and for all, and then leave it to it’s own devices, why?

I’m asking because I am a satanist. However, these days, many satanists say they are polytheistic, e.g. Satan is one of many gods. I have yet to get a good explanation as to why they believe the things they do. So, I’m going to take a wild stab and assume they probably co-opted their beliefs by assimilating different pagan perspectives.

Ah, I see, I’m apparently so used to explaining things to Christians that I make certain assumptions. Sorry about that.

In all honesty, I’m not certain that I have an answer for you. Can the gods create something from nothing? Well, according to most of the stories I’ve read (and I’ve read a lot about world mythologies) the gods usually use something to create something. Odin and his brothers use Ymir’s body, Marduk uses the body of Tiamat, the Egyptians had many different creation myths, but in one, the creator uses his own…seed…to make the universe. The degree to which Pagans take these stories literally varies, although my experience is that most (including myself) don’t imagine that their myths refer to actual historical events. I do know that among some Norse Pagans, there is a literal belief in Ragnarok (A.K.A The end of the world as we know it) but others say that Ragnarok has already happened (with the coming of Christianity) or that Ragnarok is simply the end of a cycle (which begins again).

As for “Why polytheism?” some Pagans look to nature, and they say: “If nature is so varied and diverse, why not the gods?” Others come to polytheism because they’ve had a religious experience (ie. some sort of encounter with one or more deities) that leads to a belief in multiple gods. A common statement I see is that: “The Divine is too big to only manifest in one form.” If you’re looking for objective proof, my opinion is that there is as much objective proof for One God as there are for two, three, or a thousand gods, that is to say: none.

I don’t know very much about theistic Satanism. Perhaps they believe that the “demons” from the Christian tradition are actually gods who were…well…demonized, and their experiences with these beings–not just as symbols, but as actual beings–is why they are polytheistic. There are actually debates among Pagans as to whether Satanists should be included under the Pagan umbrella. Opinions, as always, vary.

 

[Lokabrenna]

In Paganism are all of the gods perfect? Meaning, in each of them is there found all perfection or are some lacking in perfection?

The concept that deity is “perfect” is something that is foreign to Pagan gods. If God is all good, it follows that Satan is pure evil, but the gods that Pagans worship are neither good nor evil, as in this chart from the (late) Isaac Bonewits:

neopagan.net/graphics/Theology_Sm.jpg

However, I think there is an element of “perfection” particularly when discussing images of deities. Many cultures (the Greeks, for instance) saw their gods as physically ideal, but as far as perfection is concerned, the gods are not perfect, nor do they expect their followers to be perfect.