Ask a Pagan, Part 2

[fred_conty]

Amber Lux, thank you for your answers.

You answered,“The way that works the best for me, may by the way that damages you the most.”

And I couldn’t agree more. There are two ways that may be taken;

1. run a scam and take your money.
2. believe in gods who are indifferent to my scams.

I’m not putting words in your mouth because the 2nd way does affect the outcome of
the 1st way. If I believe in a god or gods who disapprove(s) of certain actions, then
won’t that affect my behavior, especially considering justice to be administered? But
isn’t it a bit convient not to believe this way? no retribution. no worry. no conscience.
not fear. no nothing. feedom for license to do anything my little heart desires. Now I can
focus on me, me, me, and only me. Now I can experience the “good life” even at the
expense of that other fellow, because this works best for me. And the gods really could
care less because they have their own set of problems to solve. Yepee!

All of us are praying for you, I love you, and Someone else loves you too.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Hi Lokabrenna! Even though I’ve been Catholic my whole life, I’ve been curious about Paganism as a whole for quite a few years. If you don’t mind a few more questions on top of the pile you’ve already got, I have a few more of my own:

I could probably spend all day answering questions. I think educating people and trying to dispel some misconceptions regarding this movement is a worthy goal. If nothing else, it helps us better understand each other.

1.) A subject that kind of interests me is divination. I know many different Pagans practice it in many different forms (ie Tarot, scrying, dowsing and others). Can you explain it in greater detail? I’d like to have a better understanding of it.

Well, according to the dictionary:

div·i·na·tion
   [div-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1.
the practice of attempting to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means.
2.
augury; prophecy: The divination of the high priest was fulfilled.
3.
perception by intuition; instinctive foresight.

I think, most of the time when someone wants to know about divination, they’re referring mainly to the first definition. As usual, opinions regarding the effectiveness of such tools (tarot, etc.) for the purpose of telling the future varies. My personal belief is that it’s impossible to use these tools to predict the future because the future is always changing. At any moment, I could make a decision that changes the course of my personal history. I think that defining “divination” solely as “a means by which one can foretell the future” is an oversimplification. Unfortunately, that’s the sort of definition everyone likes. I actually think the second part of that definition “to discover hidden knowledge by occult or supernatural means,” is a little more accurate, but it’s not quite what I do. (I’ll explain more below.)

I could go on, but maybe I should give some examples as to how different Pagans might use these tools. I know Pagans who use them to determine a good time to do ritual, some might use them in meditation (particularly runes or tarot) or as part of their altar/shrine setup. (If they honour a deity associated with the dead, they might include the Death card from the tarot on their altar, for instance.)

I actually have the most experience with tarot (I collect decks), so I feel more “qualified” to discuss tarot than other tools (except runes, but more on them in a moment). I personally use the cards as “writing aids” because I do a lot of play-by-post roleplaying. (In fact, there’s a book out called “Tarot for Writers” which takes you through how to use the cards to come up with plots, characters, etc). I also do readings for characters (without cheating by looking up info on them first) 'cause sometimes a player wants to know: “What would happen if character X and character Y got together?” I make no promises that my interpretations of the cards that appear are going to be accurate, but oftentimes they are.

I suppose what I’m trying to say is that I don’t use these tools for “serious” purposes very often, but I know people (not just Pagans) who use the cards to make major decisions (such as whether to buy a house or not).

One more note, some of the tools that are marketed as being able to “tell the future” were never used for that purpose historically. There’s no evidence that the Germanic tribes actually used runes to tell the future (but there are references to them using runes in magic) but so many texts will make that assertion (and there is no “blank rune”, that was an invention of Ralph Blum). Tarot was originally a simple card game (it’s still played in Europe). etc.

2.) As you may know, in the Catholic Church we have the concept of redemptive suffering. While I’m pretty sure most Pagans don’t think of redemption in the same light as do Catholics/Christians, what would you say is the common concept of suffering among Pagans? How do they view it (the will of the Gods? no explanation at all? necessary for growth?)

Well, I wrote a post on sacrifice, which might be a nice addendum to this response: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8013926&postcount=15

I think it’s best summed up as “Sometimes life is sh*itty.”

To elaborate, none of the various “branches” of Paganism that I’ve encountered really have this concept of redemptive suffering. In fact, since Pagan traditions generally don’t have a concept of “sin” (except if you’re talking about archery) there isn’t anything to be “redeemed” from.

I think there is an element of “suffering is necessary for growth” but you can grow as a person without suffering. For instance, I was fired from my job two years ago. At the time, I thought it was the worst thing in the world, but because I was fired, I ended up applying to library school and spent the best year of my life out of town on my own. I probably would never have applied to library school if I hadn’t been fired.

Now, don’t get me wrong, sometimes people suffer and there’s no rhyme or reason to it. I wouldn’t expect a rape victim to “learn anything” from their experience, although they may find themselves in a position to help others who have been through the same experience, nor do I think that anyone needs to “wallow” in suffering if a way out presents itself. If I find myself in a physically abusive relationship, I’m not going to beat around the bush wondering if it’s the “Will of Freyja” that I stay, I’m getting the heck away from a partner who doesn’t respect me. In fact, who has such a low opinion of me that they hurt me. The gods might have their own agendas, and certain gods might decide to jerk people around “for the lulz”, but I am a firm believer that the gods expect us to use our heads!

 

[Lokabrenna]

Cont’d

3.) One thing I’ve learned is that most Pagans don’t believe in a supernatural source of Supreme Evil. Can you explain what a Pagan concept of evil would be and where it comes from and why there’s so much of it in our world?

Short answer: Humans are perfectly capable of being evil on their own, without supernatural entities mucking everything up.

Longer answer: I think we first need to define “evil”. I think most of us can agree that things like murder and rape are wrong. However, there are things that some people think are evil that don’t bother others: premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion. These are issues that divide Pagans as well, although we go about arguing about it differently than Catholics would. I personally don’t have anything against premarital sex, but I haven’t been looking for that sort of relationship. I also identify as bisexual with a preference for other women, so no problems with homosexuality, and I identify as pro-choice even though I don’t know if I would get an abortion (excepting if I were raped).

Now, historically many cultures believed in evil spirits that caused diseases and madness and such. We know now that such things are the result of viruses and bacteria, or chemical imbalances in the brain, but our ancestors simply didn’t have access to that sort of knowledge. It’s one thing that separates modern Pagans from ancient ones, there’s not as much focus on propagating evil spirits as there is on cultivating a relationship with the gods and more benevolent entities.

As for why there’s so much evil in the world. I again think that humans have become very adept at finding creative ways to harm ourselves, each other, and the environment, and we’ve been at it a long time. I also think that we tend to focus on all the horrible things that we do and forget that we’re also capable of doing many good things.

Thanks in advance!

No problem! I’m always happy to answer questions!

 

[The_Centurion]

Firstly the term “perfect being” is not well defined. What does “perfect” regarding a person mean?

I believe perfect means: entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings.

Secondly, if things like omnipotence are meant, those are logically impossible. This “impefect” pagan gods are not logically impossible, putting aside whether or how they might exist.

Omnipotence is not logically impossible but it is a mystery.

So they are not worshipping someone equal but something they behold as valuable, desirable - in short worthy.

While the levels of imperfection can very the point would still remain that both beings are imperfect and therefore equal in this respect. Take men and women: both are different but both are also equally human.

Which is a far better way than to worship someone because he is more powerful, if you ask me.

Then you will be happy to know that this is not the drivng force behind Catholic worship either.

 

[AnAtheist]

I believe perfect means: entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings.

Well, yes, but what is considered a flaw? Esp. when it comes to gods.
Lack of humour? Jealousy? Not capable of jeasousy? …

While the levels of imperfection can very the point would still remain that both beings are imperfect and therefore equal in this respect. Take men and women: both are different but both are also equally human.

In the European creation myths the gods do not create the cosmos. The cosmos appears very much by itself, just like in modern scientific theories. The gods all come much later. In the Greek one the Chaos splits up into Earth, Ocean, and Underworld represented by Titans, which are later defeated by the gods. In the Norse one it’s Ginnungagap which splits up into Muspelheim and Niflheim whose opposing forces (fire and ice) build up the cosmos, represented by a Titan later defeated by the gods.
I guess the creation part is the biggest difference between a monothestic god and the pagan ones. Again, I behold the latter far more logical, esp. compared to what we know thanks to science.

Then you will be happy to know that this is not the drivng force behind Catholic worship either.

I heard it often enough from Christian apologets. But when I think of it, those I listened to might be Protestant.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Lokabrenna you mentioned, “Leaving aside the assumption that there’s only one deity out there–which is something that many Pagans, being polytheists, don’t believe.”

Why? that is, why leave it aside? It’s important.

Not to me.

Which of the so called gods came first?

Depends on the pantheon. In my tradition, the first gods were Odin and his brothers (Vili and Ve), that’s if you’re going by the story that was written down. There were quite possibly other stories that didn’t “make the cut”.

Were they born? Did they create themselves? Where did they come from? Why are
they there at all? Or are they there at all or a figment of the imagination?

Some gods are born, others arise from chaos/primeval waters/whatever the culture imagines came first, others come about in more unusual ways.

Also if they are fighting among one another, why? and who will win? and will some die?
and will some live? and for how long?

Are you saying your family always gets along perfectly, that you never disagree? The gods are individuals, and sometimes one deity’s agenda is at cross-purposes with another deity’s agenda. In some cultures (particularly the Greeks) the gods are immortal, in others, certain gods do die (and are sometimes brought back to life). Icelandic lore states that most of the gods (the male gods, at least) die during Ragnarok, but personally, I don’t believe in a literal Ragnarok.

Since they are not perfect as you say, then there
are always going to be jealousy, murder, stealing, anger, and in general every ungliness
under the dark moon and then some. Dosen’t it sound a little bit unhealthy and going
nowhere? Is that what it really is about?

Sure, there’s ugliness, and sometimes the gods may go against each other, but the gods also know when to cooperate as well. When Loki steals Freyja’s necklace, she goes to ask Heimdall to help her search for Loki. Heimdall even fights Loki for the necklace.

Vying for man’s attention? Playing with man in
an uncaring way? just for the sport of it to fill in their time. And if we do give them the
attention they seem so desperately to need, what does that say about them?

Some gods want little to nothing to do with humans, but the level of “meddling” in human affairs varies. The Greek deities are the best known for meddling, the Norse/Germanic gods occasionally meddle, but not to the extent that the Greek ones do.

Now if there were just one, that might be handled. But so many! One is eventually
is going to be the champ.

It’s not a popularity contest. Zeus may be acknowledged as king of the Greek pantheon, but other deities had their own cults and their own cult centres. In certain areas of Northern Europe, certain gods were more popular at certain times. Its generally accepted that each pantheon coexists peacefully with the others, although some gods will say to some followers “I don’t want you worshiping X.”

So why do you say there are a bunch of them, and can you give their exact number and
names? And will there be more tomorrow? the day after? And why will there be more?
or less? or any? and whose to say? by what authority?

There are more than you can count, and many that have been lost to time.

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by fred conty
Lokabrenna you mentioned, “Leaving aside the assumption that there’s only one deity out there–which is something that many Pagans, being polytheists, don’t believe.”

Why? that is, why leave it aside? It’s important.

Not to me.

And do you think that is a convincing argument when speaking to monotheists on a Catholic forum?

Originally Posted by fred conty
Which of the so called gods came first?

Depends on the pantheon. In my tradition, the first gods were Odin and his brothers (Vili and Ve), that’s if you’re going by the story that was written down. There were quite possibly other stories that didn’t “make the cut”.

Some gods are born, others arise from chaos/primeval waters/whatever the culture imagines came first, others come about in more unusual ways.

Do you believe these gods acutally exist? It seems to me that you are just verifying that they are nothing more than creatures of the human imagination. The rest of your post is just more of the same; fables and myths. I am just curious as to the importance you ascribe to actually pursuing truth; the origin of your own existence and the state of your eternal destiny.

I will have to admit that I have never read or been interested in what Pagans believe, primarily because I just think it is silly, so I am approaching this with an inherent bias. At this point, however, I am curious just from the standpoint that I am amazed that anyone in this day and age could take this seriously. Obviously you do and so I would expect that, since you have become convinced of the truths of your beliefs, that you would be able to give a plausible explanation as to how you have arrived at these beliefs.

Would you mind informing the readers here as to how you arrived at your position?

Thanks.

 

[JHow]

Would you mind informing the readers here as to how you arrived at your position?

Lokabrenna: If you take this question on, could you also comment on how you discern between related, but potentially competing pantheons, as well as traditions? Like, for instance, how do discern a preference for Thor (Norse) vs., say Perun (Slavic)?

 

[AnAtheist]

I will have to admit that I have never read or been interested in what Pagans believe, primarily because I just think it is silly, so I am approaching this with an inherent bias. At this point, however, I am curious just from the standpoint that I am amazed that anyone in this day and age could take this seriously.

Hm, there those who think exactly the same way about your beliefs.

 

[vsedriver]

Most neo-pagans are polytheistic. The rest tend to be athiests. Athiests as is “there are no dieties, period.”

So being neo-pagan is no different from being an atheist. Or to quote a famous philosopher, “A point in every direction is the same as no point at all.” Harry Nilsson

 

[SteveVH]

Hm, there those who think exactly the same way about your beliefs.

One difference. If you would like to know how I arrived at my beliefs I will be more than happy to give you an answer. If someone asks me “why don’t you consider that there may be more than one God? It is important.” my answer will not be “Not to me”.

Christianity can be explained both from the standpoint of faith as well as reason, so those who think “exactly the same way about [my] beliefs” do not understand those beliefs. All I am asking is for an explanation as to how one arrives at the pagan beliefs expressed. Is that not fair?

 

[Lokabrenna]

And do you think that is a convincing argument when speaking to monotheists on a Catholic forum?

I’m not interested in trying to “convince” anyone to believe in multiple gods, or to do things my way, or anything like that. That’s proselytizing, and not only is it against forum rules, it’s rude.

Do you believe these gods acutally exist? It seems to me that you are just verifying that they are nothing more than creatures of the human imagination. The rest of your post is just more of the same; fables and myths. I am just curious as to the importance you ascribe to actually pursuing truth; the origin of your own existence and the state of your eternal destiny.

I think they do, but I also think that even if they don’t, the stories and myths still have value to us. Maybe the atheists are right, and everyone who hears the voice of a god in their heads is crazy. As an aside, do you know why many atheists don’t seem to have a problem with Pagans? We might believe some crazy things, but at least we don’t go around trying to push our particular brand of crazy on others.

I will have to admit that I have never read or been interested in what Pagans believe, primarily because I just think it is silly, so I am approaching this with an inherent bias. At this point, however, I am curious just from the standpoint that I am amazed that anyone in this day and age could take this seriously. Obviously you do and so I would expect that, since you have become convinced of the truths of your beliefs, that you would be able to give a plausible explanation as to how you have arrived at these beliefs.

Some would say the same about your faith, but at least you acknowledge that you have an inherent bias.

Would you mind informing the readers here as to how you arrived at your position?

There’s not much to tell, really. Unlike many others, I haven’t had a direct experience with any deity. In fact, I wasn’t aware that anyone even worshiped these gods until high school when I discovered Dianic Wicca. At the time, I was dissatisfied with Catholicism, and Dianic Wicca was something new and exciting and so unlike what I was used to. I found, to paraphrase The Secret Life of Bees “a god[dess] who looked like me.”

There’s more to it, of course, but for me, polytheism actually makes more sense. I find it easier to believe in gods who fight, work, and occasionally screw each other than a God whose omnipotence is a “mystery”.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Lokabrenna: If you take this question on, could you also comment on how you discern between related, but potentially competing pantheons, as well as traditions? Like, for instance, how do discern a preference for Thor (Norse) vs., say Perun (Slavic)?

Great question! Let’s assume, for instance, that the Pagan in question is in a relationship with Apollo. They feel connected to him and feel that he accepts their offerings. Now let’s say another deity, say…the Morrigan (from Irish mythology) starts dropping hints (either through dreams, visions, or some other method) that she wants attention from this person. In that case, Apollo might jump in and say “Um, NO!” or he might say “You may honour her, but don’t bring anything that’s hers into my space.” Some deities will take the initiative in this. I’ve heard that several people who honour Apollo have been told that under NO circumstances are they to honour Brigid. Some of it’s common sense as well, a war god and a love goddess might not get along (unless they’re from the same pantheon). Some even caution against mixing pantheons altogether, but for others, it just sort of…happens…

As for your second question, many Pagans start out by saying: “Which pantheon do I feel most drawn to?” or “Maybe I’ll look into the deities that my ancestors worshiped,” but sometimes when they do that they find their niche, but other times they get a “cold reception” of sorts, a feeling that’s sort of like someone saying: “Nice ritual kid, but what are you doing here?” I personally had a fascination with Ancient Near Eastern deities, but I didn’t find them as compelling as the Germanic pantheon.

Now, let’s say someone’s meditating, a deity shows up, and (for whatever reason), they don’t give a name. (Sometimes they do give names, and other times the person recognizes them on sight.) You’d be surprised how often this comes up, actually. This is where many Pagans will sit down and research deities like Thor and Perun. Sometimes they’ll be looking at names in a book and one will jump out at them, but usually the advice I hear on this topic is: “Why don’t you try asking?” I think that research is very important for this sort of thing, as gods might have similar functions (maybe they’re both associated with the sky, or war, or whatever) but the Greek Ares is very different from the Roman Mars. Ares didn’t have many cult centers in Greece, Zeus referred to him as “the most hated of my children”, but the Romans LOVED Mars. I don’t know of any Pagans who have worshiped both at once, but I suspect they “feel” different during ritual.

 

[Publisher]

My Wiccan friend relates a similar story…Herne appeared to him many years ago…he didn’t know who Herne was…a large man with antlers…he said he used a stag horn on his alter for years…then in the 80’s he was watching the “Robin of Sherwood” series from the BBC and that is when he knew who had appeard to him…it was Herne the Hunter…I am leaving a lot of the story out…he is a private person and I respect his faith choice…my friend is not given to sensationalism…he has been Wiccan for more than 40 years…he was solitary until he saw the “Robin of Sherwood” program…shortly after that he was iniatiated into a Gardnerian coven. He and his wife have raised their two children in their faith.

 

[AnAtheist]

All I am asking is for an explanation as to how one arrives at the pagan beliefs expressed. Is that not fair?

This is a discussion board. It’s more than fair.

One difference. If you would like to know how I arrived at my beliefs I will be more than happy to give you an answer. If someone asks me “why don’t you consider that there may be more than one God? It is important.” my answer will not be “Not to me”.

Christianity can be explained both from the standpoint of faith as well as reason, so those who think “exactly the same way about [my] beliefs” do not understand those beliefs.

I don’t think that’s the difference in question. The difference is that the very terms religion, belief, pious, god… mean something slightly different in pagan religions than in monotheistic religions. That leads to all kinds of misunderstandings. The Romans regarded the early Christians as atheists, and Christians regarded pagans as devil worshippers.
What we think today of religion is a definition Lactantius wrote down in the 3rd/4th century. Cicero in his de re publica defined religio quite differently.
A neo-pagan once told that it is not important what you believe but what you honour, what you revere. From my experience pagans behold all kinds of different god-images from psychological archetypes to personalised forces of nature to ideals to transcendent or even immanet beings. But there is no quarrel among them which of those views is true. Simply because the idea of what they honour is the same, no matter how it implements itself in reality. There are no sects fighting each other over the question whether Thor has a red or a blond beard. Among monotheists such questions lead to century long wars.

A religious belief says little to nothing about reality but a lot about the believer. When I look at religions from that viewpoint paganism is much more reasonable and appealing than Christianity.

 

[Ahimsa]

My Wiccan friend relates a similar story…Herne appeared to him many years ago…he didn’t know who Herne was…a large man with antlers…he said he used a stag horn on his alter for years…then in the 80’s he was watching the “Robin of Sherwood” series from the BBC and that is when he knew who had appeard to him…it was Herne the Hunter…I am leaving a lot of the story out…he is a private person and I respect his faith choice…my friend is not given to sensationalism…he has been Wiccan for more than 40 years…he was solitary until he saw the “Robin of Sherwood” program…shortly after that he was iniatiated into a Gardnerian coven. He and his wife have raised their two children in their faith.

Your friend’s experience is an example of how the pre-Christian European deities can still be venerated, even after the records of those pre-Christian cultures have been lost to history. From this perspective, one doesn’t necessarily need written accounts of paleo-Pagan rituals, or a continuing pre-Christian priesthood. As long as some people are open to communicating with the Deities, the Deities can inspire a new cycle of modern, contemporary veneration and tradition.

 

[vsedriver]

However, there are things that some people think are evil that don’t bother others: premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion. These are issues that divide Pagans as well, although we go about arguing about it differently than Catholics would. I personally don’t have anything against premarital sex, but I haven’t been looking for that sort of relationship. I also identify as bisexual with a preference for other women, so no problems with homosexuality, and I identify as pro-choice even though I don’t know if I would get an abortion (excepting if I were raped).

so you don’t see anything wrong with out of wedlock births, sexually transmitting diseases, and kids raised with multiple parents coming and going in their lives.

And you don’t believe abortion is the taking of a human life. So from a pagan point of view, it only matters what “I” do and everyone can do as they please as long as it doesn’t hurt me or I don’t hurt someone else depending on your definition of ‘someone’ and ‘hurting’.

 

[vsedriver]

I found, to paraphrase The Secret Life of Bees “a god[dess] who looked like me.”

not to offend, but this smacks an awful lot like self worship.

There’s more to it, of course, but for me, polytheism actually makes more sense. I find it easier to believe in gods who fight, work, and occasionally screw each other than a God whose omnipotence is a “mystery”.

of course it is easier to believe in gods who fight, work etc. The evidence is all around you. They are a reflection of humanity. Again, a case of self worship. However it is one step up from worshiping animals.

I can’t conceive of worshiping a god who looks like me. What’s the point? It’s just too narcissistic.

 

[AnAtheist]

I can’t conceive of worshiping a god who looks like me.

But worshipping a god becoming like you (i.e. human) is no problem?

 

[Lokabrenna]

so you don’t see anything wrong with out of wedlock births, sexually transmitting diseases, and kids raised with multiple parents coming and going in their lives.

Most Pagans I know place great importance on personal responsibility. I’m smart enough to know that if I go out and have sex with multiple partners (assuming I had any interest in such) that there are potential consequences to those actions, and I also know my options in case of pregnancy or in the event that I do get an STI. I think it’s unfortunate that people aren’t more responsible, but I don’t think premarital sex in and of itself is a bad thing, that doesn’t mean I’m going to go out and do it. I have more important things to worry about.

And you don’t believe abortion is the taking of a human life. So from a pagan point of view, it only matters what “I” do and everyone can do as they please as long as it doesn’t hurt me or I don’t hurt someone else depending on your definition of ‘someone’ and ‘hurting’.

I personally know Pagans who are pro-life and who have their reasons for taking that stance. We do disagree on where exactly “life” begins, and because Paganism is actually an umbrella term for many different religions, it’s impossible to give a “position statement” on the issue. I think many would agree with me that the issue is complex.

Now, once the child is outside the womb, I don’t know of a single Pagan who wouldn’t consider it murder if someone killed the child nowadays. (Many ancient cultures did expose children they didn’t want, particularly girl children.)