Ask a Pagan, Part 2

[Lokabrenna]

Thanks,

I understand that some white supremacist folks are into this culture in their religion. Have you met racists in your pursuit of your practice?

I can’t believe it took so long for someone to ask this! Usually it’s one of the first things people ask.

I personally haven’t met any racists because I tend to shy away from community events, but you can find a lot of people with some very…interesting…interpretations of the lore on the internet. I have seen some opinions expressed that the gods’ conflict with the giants is some sort of symbolic race war, but that makes absolutely no sense! Sure, the gods fight with the giants a lot, but they also MARRY them…quite frequently, I might add! In fact, most of the gods (including Odin) are descended from giants.

On the human front, the fact is that an Arab (Ibn Fadlan) was allowed to witness rituals that were performed by the Norsemen. I honestly don’t think they would have let him do so if they were so concerned about “racial purity.”

Also, a note, there is a type of Heathenry known as “folkish” Heathenry that is often labelled as racist. Basically, folkish types believe that only those of Northern European descent should worship the Norse/Germanic gods, and question why anyone who isn’t of Northern European descent would want to worship Northern European gods. Now, I (obviously) don’t agree with their position, but I think it’s unfair that “folkish” is often used as a synonym for “racist”.

 

[AnAtheist]

On the human front, the fact is that an Arab (Ibn Fadlan) was allowed to witness rituals that were performed by the Norsemen. I honestly don’t think they would have let him do so if they were so concerned about “racial purity.”

Racism as we know it today developed from the explorations in the 15th to the 20th century. And it reaaly went bad in the 19th century. So the tradition Asatruar want to connect to did not know any about it, and some white supremacist should learn to read as racism cannot be found in the myth. (Though I have seen an “argument” that the Rigsmal speaks of apartheid, but that’s utter nonsense.)

btw - have you read Ibn Fadlan?

 

[amber_lux]

I don’t know any Catholics who hang on Crosses.

One group is in the Philippines. Another group is in the High Desert country of the United States. Offhand, I don’t remember where the other groups reside.

The groups that practice it have become extremely reluctant to talk about it with outsiders. The basic reason is that religion is not a spectator sport.

Were they buried and did they leave their graves under their own power?

You’d have to ask the Quorum of Twelve that. In several instances, the individuals were left in their bed, with all monitors on, against the wishes of the hospital staff. All of the monitors were flat lines.

you mean they died and then came back to life? Or they were crucified and removed from the cross prior to death?

The Romans who removed them, thought that they were dead. Whether they were flat lining, or simply in a deep coma is unknown. The point is that these individuals did not die as a result of being crucified.

Amber

 

[amber_lux]

Christian-Wicca? never heard of that. Also not sure it can be called 'Christian".

The adherents call it Christian-Wicca. It isn’t the first quasi pagan religion to develop out of Christianity.

Depending upon how one counts, the first two, or first three quasi-pagan religions were developed by Catholic priests. Even today, adherents of Santaria and Voudon consider themselves to be Catholic.

Amber

 

[Noesis]

Even today, adherents of Santaria … consider themselves to be Catholic.

Some adherents do indeed consider themselves ‘Catholic’ in addition to their Santeria; others will claim Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam. But what relevance this has to ‘Christian-Wicca’ is beyond me. Santeria – for what it’s worth – was a natural development out of a legitimate family of ethnic religions; Wicca is a cheap imitation of Hermeticism and is infused with the assumption that 19th century European folklore somehow contains great ‘spiritual’ revelations. They will latch on to anything in a desperate attempt to provide structure for their watery beliefs, whether it be pop psychology, perverted occultism, distorted Hindusim… and yes, even liberal and insipid Christianity.

 

[amber_lux]

Typically, after being accepted by the leadership of a coven, a person studies for a year and a day before even being considered for initiation into the coven.

That depends upon the specific coven. In general, what happens is:

• An appointment with the public face of the coven. This may, but need not be, the coven leaders;
• If they decide that the individual is acceptable, then the study begins;
• If they decide that the individual is unacceptable, that is the end;
• After a year and a day of study, the individual is initiated into the coven;
• The leadership accepts the individual, after their initiation into the coven;
• A person can study for a year and a day, and be refused initiation. Usually, the potential candidate will be warned of this, long before the time is up. If they don’t correct the issues, they won’t be initiated;

Some covens have “public” study sessions. One still has to go through the application process, but the rules are less stringent. If the coven has both “public” and “private” study sessions, the potential candidate might be told that they can attend the “public” study sessions, but not the “private” study sessions. Six to nine months later, the individual might be privately reconsidered for acceptance into the “private” study sessions.

Each coven has its own policies on who can attend a specific ritual. The safest assumption is that attendance at a ritual is allowed, only when specifically invited. Gate-crashing is never acceptable.

One other point: When one changes Trads, covens will still require the individual to go through the year and a day of study, prior to initiation, regardless of how long they were in their previous Trads.

Trads: Tradition. The lineage that one has. Alexandrian Wicca is a Trad within Traditional British Wicca. Gardnerian Wicca is a different Trad within Traditional British Wicca. Most other trads are either direct offshoots of one of those two, or else reconstructions based upon the material written by Gardner, or Alexander. During the sixties and seventies, several trads were created, claiming lineages back to the neolithic era. Invariably, the true history is that they were created no earlier than 1965.

I don’t know when the concept that one could be a solitary Wiccan arose. Probably in the mid-sixties, when everything was being invented, and claimed to date back aeons. There are lineages of solitary Wiccans.

Even after initiation, a coven member is still expected to grow spiritually independent of the coven,

The learning prior to initiation is a basic foundation. A very rough analogy for Catholics, would be spending a year studying The Baltimore Catechism, prior to a Catholic baptism.

as well as keep secret any oathbound material that they have learned in their course of study.

For most covens, that prohibition includes providing the name of the High God and High Goddess to those outside of the coven.

The precise parameters of the oath, depend upon the specific coven, and, to a lesser extent, the individual. The oversimplified version is: “No discussion under any circumstances.” In extreme cases, that means leaving the room when the topic comes up in casual conversation. The more nuanced version is “Discuss with others, once you have a complete and full understanding of the specific topic”.

and even then, you’re allowed to call in sick if you need to.

There are rites that can be done solitary. If you can’t attend the group ritual, you are expected to do the solitary form. Solitary Wiccans almost always do the ritual on their own, at the season of the Moon, and at the season of the Sun.

British Traditional Wicca pretty much insists of group participation for the seasons. The coven can be as small as two individuals. Ideally, a new coven has between five and eight members.

Amber

 

[ringil]

One group is in the Philippines. Another group is in the High Desert country of the United States. Offhand, I don’t remember where the other groups reside.

Amber

The Bishops of the Phillipines have asked these individuals to stop this activity, however.

 

[cheese_sdc]

No question for you. Just want to say the most pagans I’ve met tend to be the most non-judgmental, and all around cool people I’ve met.

I know that all pagans aren’t like that, guess I’ve just been lucky.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Racism as we know it today developed from the explorations in the 15th to the 20th century. And it reaaly went bad in the 19th century. So the tradition Asatruar want to connect to did not know any about it, and some white supremacist should learn to read as racism cannot be found in the myth. (Though I have seen an “argument” that the Rigsmal speaks of apartheid, but that’s utter nonsense.)

btw - have you read Ibn Fadlan?

As for Ibn Fadlan, I’ve only read bits and pieces of his work. Now I understand why some Heathens view research as a spiritual exercise, there’s so much to read!

As for racism, I imagine it’s much like the term “homosexuality”, it’s a modern term that doesn’t necessarily apply to ancient peoples in the way we think it does.

 

[Lokabrenna]

No question for you. Just want to say the most pagans I’ve met tend to be the most non-judgmental, and all around cool people I’ve met.

I know that all pagans aren’t like that, guess I’ve just been lucky.

I was going to say “You haven’t been hanging out with any hardcore Germanic reconstructionists, then, have you?” Some of them can get REALLY grumpy!

But that’s a whole other topic entirely, and not all hardcore recons are grumpy, of course. We come from all walks of life, but I think having the “no trying to convert people” rule (which is true for most modern Pagan religions, if not all) helps a lot.

 

[JHow]

Okay Lokabrenna, We are getting close to October, which means that, in America, at least, the subject of Halloween will make an appearance on the boards. As you know, this is a contentious subject for Catholics (at least at CAF). My question for you is, how do pagans feel about it? Do you feel anger that ancient traditions have been trivialised? Or maybe, do you feel that in some sense, ancient traditions have been “Christianized”?Do you celebrate Halloween (Samhain?) in a religious sense? Do you celebrate Halloween in a cultural sense? Do you let your kids trick-or-treat? Would you be offended if your daughter wanted to dress up as a “witch”? Do you think it is all a plot contrived by candy manufacturers (or maybe the sugar-beet, cane-sugar, or corn-syrup lobbies) to boost sales?

 

[ringil]

As for racism, I imagine it’s much like the term “homosexuality”, it’s a modern term that doesn’t necessarily apply to ancient peoples in the way we think it does.

No I’m talking about the real life present day white supremacists who claim to follow the Odinist religion. I’m not saying they do practice an authentic religion. I’m just pointing it out.

Thousands of terrorists have bastardized true islam and multitudes of Christians over the ages have done terrible things in the name of Christ.

It’s sad but true. Evil people use religion.

 

[samiam1611]

Oh yeah, Loka, what are you gonna be for Halloween? You should be Freya or some other [sort of] recognizable goddess! or would that be disrespectful to the gods or something?
If you dress as Freya, what would you wear? Tell me all the details lol. I looooove Halloween! Except for it being cold I wish Halloween was like a month or 2 earlier

edit: amber, you too, what are you going to be? Do you ever dress as a witch and if so, what, like, style?

 

[Ahimsa]

All I need to know about Pagans, I get from watching True Blood on HBO.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Okay Lokabrenna, We are getting close to October, which means that, in America, at least, the subject of Halloween will make an appearance on the boards. As you know, this is a contentious subject for Catholics (at least at CAF). My question for you is, how do pagans feel about it? Do you feel anger that ancient traditions have been trivialised? Or maybe, do you feel that in some sense, ancient traditions have been “Christianized”?Do you celebrate Halloween (Samhain?) in a religious sense? Do you celebrate Halloween in a cultural sense? Do you let your kids trick-or-treat? Would you be offended if your daughter wanted to dress up as a “witch”? Do you think it is all a plot contrived by candy manufacturers (or maybe the sugar-beet, cane-sugar, or corn-syrup lobbies) to boost sales?

I personally love Hallowe’en and am planning to dress my dog up in costume and taking her around to the neighbours! The equivalent festival to Samhain in my tradition is called “Winternights” which is an occasion that marked the beginning of winter in the North, info can be found here: wyrdwords.vispa.com/heathenry/winternights.html

I’d like to plug a blog by one of my co-religionists because she wrote up a post about the Wheel of the Year that’s more in line with Heathenry/Norse Paganism: wanewyrds.blogspot.com/2011/07/heathens-and-wheel-of-year.html There’s a comparison with the “standard” Wiccan version, as you can see, they’re both quite different.

Note that Winternights actually took place in mid-October, but since it feels kind of awkward celebrating when no one else around you is doing anything, some opt to celebrate it during Hallowe’en. It’s also not strictly a festival of the dead (although it is a part of it) but once again, cultural traditions prevail.

As with every other issue, opinions vary:

1. Some Pagan religions don’t have an equivalent to Samhain or honour their dead at a different time of the year, so they might acknowledge Hallowe’en in a secular sense, or not bother with it at all
2. Some (Wiccans, for instance) do recognize it as a religious holiday but still celebrate it in a secular sense
3. Some recognize it as a religious holiday and don’t like how it’s been secularized, so they only participate in the religious aspects of the holiday

The majority that I’ve seen fall into the second category, but I’ve seen a bit of the third and I’m sure many fall into the first category.

As for the lore surrounding Hallowe’en, I think there’s a lot of misinformation going around (on both Pagan and Christian sides) about the origin of this holiday. No, the Druids didn’t cut up turnips and place a lit one in the window of the house that they had chosen to provide the latest human sacrifice (in fact, scholars like Peter Berresford Ellis doubt that the druids ever practiced human sacrifice). That story’s actually from a Chick tract, and we all know Chick doesn’t bother with little things like fact-checking. I don’t really feel qualified to remark on the origins of anything else, because I’m not an expert on the Celtic festival of Samhain. I think that the timing of festivals has a lot to do with how “Christianized” they are. Easter, for instance, has much in common with Passover (well, duh) but it picked up a lot of spring imagery because the Anglo-Saxons celebrated spring around that time as well (even though scholars will argue whether or not a goddess named Eostre or Ostara ever existed).

 

[Publisher]

As for Ibn Fadlan, I’ve only read bits and pieces of his work. Now I understand why some Heathens view research as a spiritual exercise, there’s so much to read!

As for racism, I imagine it’s much like the term “homosexuality”, it’s a modern term that doesn’t necessarily apply to ancient peoples in the way we think it does.

I have a friend who is a counselor in a prison. He and I discuss the religious issues many inmates face…including those inmates who are neo-pagan. One of the most difficult neo-pagan traditions to discuss with prison officials is Asatru as many Neo-Nazis, “Skinheads” and “White Supremacists” indeed adopt Asatru “iconography” and terminology.

He asked for some assistence in compiling information on the subject. From the reading and discussions I’ve had with my Neo-pagan friends, Asatru isn’t “racist” as much as it is very “clan” oriented. One’s loyalties is within the Clan AND one’s racial ancestory…they are not against other races or ethnicities…if a person of African ancestory wish to practice his pagan religion and ancestors the Asatru are all for it…but the Gods and Goddesses of Asatru are not of African descent…and since ancestor identification is very strong among Asatru…so is their “racism”…not in the same sense “White Supremacists” embrace racism/hate mongering…but the Asatru are very race conscious as their Gods are in a way…“Ancestors”.

 

[Lokabrenna]

Oh yeah, Loka, what are you gonna be for Halloween? You should be Freya or some other [sort of] recognizable goddess! or would that be disrespectful to the gods or something?
If you dress as Freya, what would you wear? Tell me all the details lol. I looooove Halloween! Except for it being cold I wish Halloween was like a month or 2 earlier

Sadly, I’m probably not going to dress up this year since I’m too old to go trick-or-treating, I never get invited to Hallowe’en parties and when I stay home to hand out candy, we get like, two kids. I am planning on putting my dog in a costume, though. I think a princess costume will do. She can be a bratty princess sometimes!

As for dressing up as one of the gods. I’ve seen some phenomenal costumes of deities, but I’m not sure if I’d dress up as a deity myself, I think that perhaps a historically accurate viking costume would be more appropriate, but that would take time to make and would probably exceed my costume budget. I don’t mind if people want to dress as deities, though. I think the gods are more amused than offended by costumes, perhaps a bit of both depending on the deity. I also dare anyone to go as Aphrodite (protip: Almost every depiction of Aphrodite is nude), enjoy the freezing weather!

 

[Ahimsa]

I have a friend who is a counselor in a prison. He and I discuss the religious issues many inmates face…including those inmates who are neo-pagan. One of the most difficult neo-pagan traditions to discuss with prison officials is Asatru as many Neo-Nazis, “Skinheads” and “White Supremacists” indeed adopt Asatru “iconography” and terminology.

He asked for some assistence in compiling information on the subject. From the reading and discussions I’ve had with my Neo-pagan friends, Asatru isn’t “racist” as much as it is very “clan” oriented. One’s loyalties is within the Clan AND one’s racial ancestory…they are not against other races or ethnicities…if a person of African ancestory wish to practice his pagan religion and ancestors the Asatru are all for it…but the Gods and Goddesses of Asatru are not of African descent…and since ancestor identification is very strong among Asatru…so is their “racism”…not in the same sense “White Supremacists” embrace racism/hate mongering…but the Asatru are very race conscious as their Gods are in a way…“Ancestors”.

Could an African be accepted into an Asatru group?

I know in Santeria, which venerates African ancestor/deities, there is no requirement that one have recent African ancestry in order to be initiated. The ancestors, though African, seem to be welcoming to anyone who is willing to undergo the sacrifices necessary.

 

[amber_lux]

I’m talking about the real life present day white supremacists who claim to follow the Odinist religion.

Religions that do not have a publicly distributed set of writings that all can say “these are the sacred teachings”, suffer from one major problem. Anybody can claim that any specific teaching is part of the traditional lore of that religion. This doesn’t mean that having a publicly distributed set of “these are the sacred teachings” reduces the debate about what it means to believe, practice, and live according to the teachings of the religion.

My sense is that those adherents chose "white supremacy"first, and then looked for a theological justification. They could have as easily become members of the Christian Identity Movement, The World Church of the Creator, or the Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindi equivalent.

Long term, a religious system that rejects people based on ethnicity, skin color, gender, etc is not going to survive. However, how long it will take to die, is anybody’s guess. The two tensions in religious belief and practices are:

• We are unique — the chosen;
• We are all one — everybody is a part of us;

The desire for uniqueness, and the desire for being part of a group consisting of everybody.

Amber

 

[Publisher]

Could an African be accepted into an Asatru group?

I know in Santeria, which venerates African ancestor/deities, there is no requirement that one have recent African ancestry in order to be initiated. The ancestors, though African, seem to be welcoming to anyone who is willing to undergo the sacrifices necessary.

While I am no authority on the subject…I don’t believe he/she would feel…“comfortable” among an Asatru worship group…not because they are of African descent…but becasue they do not share the same ancestors and clans…since they would not share the same Gods and ancestors as the Clan…how would they participate in the life of the People…in many ways how could someone not linked by blood hear the “call of the Gods”?

Those of African descent would hear the “call of the Gods” from their own bloodlines…the “call” is not “racist”…it’s just that the Gods whom the Asatru would worship…the Aeisir and Vanir calls to those who share their blood…

NOW all that being said…there are Asatru that are “universalist” in belief and do believe that anyone can hear the “call”…but how can one hear the call of the Ancestors if they don’t share the Ancestors doing the calling?

There are some who are quite racist and actually believe that those of other races are inferior…but that’s not an Asatru belief necessarily…it’s the belief of racists…I’ve know “Christians” who believe those of African descent are somehow “inferior” to them as “white people”.

As I understand Asatru…each of us must listen to the “Call of the Gods” from our own bloodlines…stated in those terms as the Gods are “Clannish”…“Folkish”, Asatru who adhere to the “Call” would not “hear” the “Call” of African Gods…only those of African descent would…

Yoruba/Santeria/Vodoon “Gods” operate on a more universal mythology…that “mythology” is not shared between the Asatru and the Yoruba/Santeria/Vodoon.

It’s very difficult to get Asatru “chaplins” in to minister to Asatru inmates because of the “Christian” influence in our prison systems…“It’s satanic”…“It’s racist” is usually the answer provided to those who seek to minister to the Asatru/Neo-pagans in many prison systems…only “Christian/Jewish/Muslim” “monotheists” usually are allowed to “minister.”