Ask a Pagan

[mek42]

If we are part of God, then why we are not called as Gods?. If we are part of God then how we can do sin?. How sin (impurity) exists in God?. If we are part of God, then our sins will be binding on God and God is a sinner?. If everything is part of God, is it mean evil spirit (satan) is also part of God?

Am I wrong in understanding that the Catholic position is that God is present everywhere in all things?

If I am correct, how is this different that what Skadi posted?

 

[joe371]

Am I wrong in understanding that the Catholic position is that God is present everywhere in all things?

If I am correct, how is this different that what Skadi posted?

So, when Skadi said, “God is made up of all life” he was referring to the fact that “God is present everywhere in all things”?

 

[mek42]

So, when Skadi said, “God is made up of all life” he was referring to the fact that “God is present everywhere in all things”?

I do not know. The two thoughts are certainly similar though, and if Skadi’s first language is German and English his second (no offense meant if Skadi is actually a she, and his English is better than many Americans, so no offense there either) the distinction is subtle enough that we should easily forgive him.

At any rate, would you be kind enough to answer your own questions (feel free to skip your first one about why we aren’t called gods)? I am especially interested in how Catholic teaching reconciles “God is omniscient with respect to both space and time,” “God created man,” (therefore God knew man would do evil before creating man) with “God is incapable of evil.”

Thank you.

 

[joe371]

I do not know. The two thoughts are certainly similar though, and if Skadi’s first language is German and English his second (no offense meant if Skadi is actually a she, and his English is better than many Americans, so no offense there either) the distinction is subtle enough that we should easily forgive him.

At any rate, would you be kind enough to answer your own questions (feel free to skip your first one about why we aren’t called gods)? I am especially interested in how Catholic teaching reconciles “God is omniscient with respect to both space and time,” “God created man,” (therefore God knew man would do evil before creating man) with “God is incapable of evil.”

Thank you.

The idea that God existed before time and space, and that God created time and space and everything in it - seems like a reasonable conclusion.

No doubt God knew the human race would use their free will to go against God’s divine Will. This is why we say, in the our Father, your will be done on earth as is done in heaven. God is not incapable of anything, that I am sure of; after all God created the infinite universe (infinite from our perspective) from absolutely nothing. God simply will not do anything evil. God is pure and perfect love, thank God!

 

[joe371]

I do not know. The two thoughts are certainly similar though, and if Skadi’s first language is German and English his second (no offense meant if Skadi is actually a she, and his English is better than many Americans, so no offense there either) the distinction is subtle enough that we should easily forgive him.

Thank you.

There is nothing to forgive. :thumbsup:I of course agree with you on the idea about the distinction. Perhaps that is what Skadi meant.

 

[Skadi]

If we are part of God, then why we are not called as Gods?. If we are part of God then how we can do sin?. How sin (impurity) exists in God?. If we are part of God, then our sins will be binding on God and God is a sinner?. If everything is part of God, is it mean evil spirit (satan) is also part of God?

Pagans do not have a concept of “sin”. The Is All is made up of everything, not just love, passion, and happiness, but also malice, hate and violence. The thing arn’t at all unnatural (as Christians think sin is), they are part of nature.

The difference between us and the gods is simply power. They are vast, powerful beings that compose large amounts (relative to the rest of the universe) of the Is All, so much so that they reflect universal truth by acting as archetypes, understood through the lens of a persons culture.

So to answer your question, by the christian definition, the gods are sinners and the Is All is composed of sinful things. The Greco-Roman gods do an outrageous amount of sinful things in their mythology. The Germanic deitys Are constantly fighting someone, and totally consent to sex outside of marriage. Not to mention the kind of stuff that the aztecs did.

But pagan religions generally do not have a concept of sin. While some things are certainly bad and wrong, they are part of life, like it or not. We like every other animal must fight to survive.

 

[joe371]

Pagans do not have a concept of “sin”. The Is All is made up of everything, not just love, passion, and happiness, but also malice, hate and violence. The thing arn’t at all unnatural (as Christians think sin is), they are part of nature.

The difference between us and the gods is simply power. They are vast, powerful beings that compose large amounts (relative to the rest of the universe) of the Is All, so much so that they reflect universal truth by acting as archetypes, understood through the lens of a persons culture.

So to answer your question, by the christian definition, the gods are sinners and the Is All is composed of sinful things. The Greco-Roman gods do an outrageous amount of sinful things in their mythology. The Germanic deitys Are constantly fighting someone, and totally consent to sex outside of marriage. Not to mention the kind of stuff that the aztecs did.

But pagan religions generally do not have a concept of sin. While some things are certainly bad and wrong, they are part of life, like it or not. We like every other animal must fight to survive.

Is the “Is All” a sinner, (if in fact you believed in sin) just as the Gods are sinners? Can the “Is All” do both good and bad things like the gods?

 

[joe371]

Pagans do not have a concept of “sin”. The Is All is made up of everything, not just love, passion, and happiness, but also malice, hate and violence. The thing arn’t at all unnatural (as Christians think sin is), they are part of nature.

The difference between us and the gods is simply power. They are vast, powerful beings that compose large amounts (relative to the rest of the universe) of the Is All, so much so that they reflect universal truth by acting as archetypes, understood through the lens of a persons culture.

So to answer your question, by the christian definition, the gods are sinners and the Is All is composed of sinful things. The Greco-Roman gods do an outrageous amount of sinful things in their mythology. The Germanic deitys Are constantly fighting someone, and totally consent to sex outside of marriage. Not to mention the kind of stuff that the aztecs did.

But pagan religions generally do not have a concept of sin. While some things are certainly bad and wrong, they are part of life, like it or not. We like every other animal must fight to survive.

Are there any teachings established, in writing or otherwise, about the “Is All”?

 

[jerry_joseph]

So, when Skadi said, “God is made up of all life” he was referring to the fact that “God is present everywhere in all things”?

Both are different . Christian view is God is present everywhere. But it is different from creation. Creator and Creations are different. Creator is higher entity. As both are different , God is not affected by sins of humans. But as per your faith everything is part of God. So when a part does sin, it affects God or sin exsists in God. It is a contradiction to his nature, as God is fullness of Good. No impurity exists in him.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Pagans do not have a concept of “sin”. The Is All is made up of everything, not just love, passion, and happiness, but also malice, hate and violence. The thing arn’t at all unnatural (as Christians think sin is), they are part of nature. .

If there is no distinction between Good and Bad , Virtues and Sins, What is the purpose of teaching a person to lead a good and moral life?. If everybody does not care about good and bad, then what will be the condition of earth?. How weak will get justice?. How can you blame Christian god as violent God , as you dont consider there is no difference between violence and mercy as both are part of nature?.

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The difference between us and the gods is simply power. They are vast, powerful beings that compose large amounts (relative to the rest of the universe) of the Is All, so much so that they reflect universal truth by acting as archetypes, understood through the lens of a persons culture…

If power is the only difference between God and human, then a Boxing champion will be more divine than a weak slim person. Young man will be more divine than old man.

In christianity a person is more divine , when he have more goodness. A person who leads a spiritual life are more divine than a person who leads an immoral life. There are lot of things differentiates God and human beings. God is omnipotent, human beings are not. God is omnipresent, human beings can’t. God is eternal (does not have any beginning and end), human beings are not (but his soul is immortal). God is fullness of Goodness, Human beings are subject to doing sins. God have power of creation, but human beings does not have power of creation. etc from nothing. Like wise there are lot of differences between God and Humans

.

So to answer your question, by the christian definition, the gods are sinners and the Is All is composed of sinful things. The Greco-Roman gods do an outrageous amount of sinful things in their mythology. The Germanic deitys Are constantly fighting someone, and totally consent to sex outside of marriage. Not to mention the kind of stuff that the aztecs did…

In God there is no Sin. God is eternal Goodness.

But pagan religions generally do not have a concept of sin. While some things are certainly bad and wrong, they are part of life, like it or not. We like every other animal must fight to survive.

Just think, a person works hard whole day for his survival, he earns wages for that , then another person attacks and takes that wages for his survival. Is second persons activity is justifiable?. If there is not difference between good and bad , then how can you blame second person for his activity?. Intention of both persons are same, their survival.

 

[mlamg]

Can you tell me which pagan God you found as merciful.?. As per my knowledge and belief most of the pagan gods wear a weapon. Most of their mythologies are full of war and violence. What you mean by merciful god?. A forgiving machine?. Forgiving all faults of everyone without repentance?. Christ is a merciful God. He will forgive the sins of those persons who repent from their pure heart. He will punish a person or community if they are hopelessly continues in sinful life. It is for re establishing Goodness in this world.

I’m not going to bother answering this because you obviously don’t know very much about other gods and goddesses, or their mythologies. Apparently, from this statement, you read a couple here or there, probably on the internet. You also don’t have a real understanding of the Upanishads if you call it pantheistic. That’s so false, it’s laughable.

Please, if you’re going to talk about subjects in this discussion, at least have a real knowledge of them first even if it’s just a basic knowledge. When you speak in this way to people that DO have a knowledge of the subject at hand, you look simply silly which then makes me, at least, not even want to bother wasting my time in answering your ridiculous claims.

 

[mlamg]

We do not worship idols we worship the Gods.

You make it sound like we are some devious cult that tries to seduce good little christian children away from your god then slowly turn them evil. Pagans don’t proselytize, thats your religions MO. Pagans are very up front about the gods aswell.

You don’t seem to understand what paganism is, nor the idea of soft-polytheism (a pantheist god with many personal divine faces) which some pagans adhere to. Dont tell us what our religion is or isnt when you yourself obviously know little to nothing about it.

I don’t think anything we say is going to make a bit of difference. This is like talking to a brick wall.

 

[mlamg]

If we are part of God, then why we are not called as Gods?. If we are part of God then how we can do sin?. How sin (impurity) exists in God?. If we are part of God, then our sins will be binding on God and God is a sinner?. If everything is part of God, is it mean evil spirit (satan) is also part of God?

I’ll answer this from my own pagan worldview.

I personally believe that we are not part of God, but God is a part of us. God’s spark of divinity is in all creation. I am panentheistic, not pantheistic.

We’re not called gods because we’re humans.

I don’t believe in ‘sin’ as being impurity or something horrible, akin to a black mark on the soul. I believe in ‘sin’ as being a big mistake that we as humans do, because no one is perfect. Some mistakes are bigger than others, and all mistakes can be fixed in some way if we are really sorry and we work really hard to make it right to the human(s) we wronged. I think if we do that, then God is merciful. I don’t believe in a Satan figure. I think we all have the ability to be angels or demons, it’s our choice.

The creator God made this world the way it is. Everything in it is meant to be here, whether because it’s supposed to be that way or because it turned out that way, I have no way of knowing. But the world is what it is. We can make it better, or we can make it worse. Hopefully, most people would want to make it better.

 

[mlamg]

God simply will not do anything evil. God is pure and perfect love, thank God!

I’m curious as to why this is believed. God of the bible killed all of his creation, including innocent animals, because he was angry. I don’t see that as perfect love, it seems more like an imperfect human emotion and reaction, to me.

Here is a whole list of not very loving things that the god the bible did. How do you reconcile this and still call that god pure and perfect love?

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

 

[Skadi]

I don’t think anything we say is going to make a bit of difference. This is like talking to a brick wall.

Agreed. But its to be expected here in the lions den lol

 

[Skadi]

Are there any teachings established, in writing or otherwise, about the “Is All”?

The “Is All” is a concept that did not exist in European paganism, but is very similar to Brahman in Hinduism. It grew out of the new age movement in 20th century an has been accepted by various different groups under different names. Wiccans believe in a single “All”, and most other pagan groups have some followers who are “soft” polytheists like myself.

 

[Skadi]

If there is no distinction between Good and Bad , Virtues and Sins, What is the purpose of teaching a person to lead a good and moral life?. If everybody does not care about good and bad, then what will be the condition of earth?. How weak will get justice?. How can you blame Christian god as violent God , as you dont consider there is no difference between violence and mercy as both are part of nature?.

I dont blame the christian god, I just find it ridiculous that Christians call hi a god of mercy when he is obviously not.

If power is the only difference between God and human, then a Boxing champion will be more divine than a weak slim person. Young man will be more divine than old man.

In christianity a person is more divine , when he have more goodness. A person who leads a spiritual life are more divine than a person who leads an immoral life. There are lot of things differentiates God and human beings. God is omnipotent, human beings are not. God is omnipresent, human beings can’t. God is eternal (does not have any beginning and end), human beings are not (but his soul is immortal). God is fullness of Goodness, Human beings are subject to doing sins. God have power of creation, but human beings does not have power of creation. etc from nothing. Like wise there are lot of differences between God and Humans

.
No, body size or vitality has nothing to do with it, i dont know where you got the idea for that or why you insist on putting words in my mouth. We, our spirits, are parts of the is all, and the gods represent vastly larger parts.

Think of it like this. A human is like one pixel on your computer screen. It can be any one color, red, white, green, blue, black, but it is incredibly small. The gods are like a large patch of pixels, with which one can distinguish part of the image as a whole.

In God there is no Sin. God is eternal Goodness.

Your right, there is no sin because sin does not exist.

Just think, a person works hard whole day for his survival, he earns wages for that , then another person attacks and takes that wages for his survival. Is second persons activity is justifiable?. If there is not difference between good and bad , then how can you blame second person for his activity?. Intention of both persons are same, their survival.

Well firstly, if it is for survival, then you cant blame the second man. There is good and evil, but evil is devoid of reason. If I slay a deer to eat, or because it is eating my crops, it is fine, circle of life. But if i kill a deer simply to kill it, to torture it and mame its body, well that is wrong.

 

[jerry_joseph]

I’m not going to bother answering this because you obviously don’t know very much about other gods and goddesses, or their mythologies. Apparently, from this statement, you read a couple here or there, probably on the internet. You also don’t have a real understanding of the Upanishads if you call it pantheistic. That’s so false, it’s laughable

Yes I am not an expert in your religion. That’s why I asked you the question. If you cannot answer that, please admit that, instead of blaming me.

Dont tell I dont know anything about your mythologies. I read Ramayana and Mahabharatha. I know the entire stories. I read Dasawathara (Ten incarnations of God) stories from Internet. My hindu friends told me that their religious philosophy Advaita Vedanta (Non Dual - Me and Atman (God) are one , is explanation of Vedas and Upanishads. That’s why I told that it God’s nature presented in Upanishads are pantheism (All are god) or pan in theism (every thing is in God)

Please, if you’re going to talk about subjects in this discussion, at least have a real knowledge of them first even if it’s just a basic knowledge. When you speak in this way to people that DO have a knowledge of the subject at hand, you look simply silly which then makes me, at least, not even want to bother wasting my time in answering your ridiculous claims.

Knowledge comes through reading, discussing etc. And deciding whether to believe that knowledge , is true or false is based on asking doubts through questions, raising objections etc. If you cannot reply to the questions (my doubts) or objections, that means your faith is imperfect or you are not fit enough (don’t have enough knowledge) to discuss about your faith.

I dont think those who look to this discussion in a neutral mind will consider my questions and objections are silly.

What you mean by discussion?. Accepting everything you tells without any objections?. My beliefs are deeply rooted in Christianity. That is true. Same like your belief are deeply rooted in your faith. Can you accept my christian faith with out objection?. No . Why?. Because your beliefs are based on your faith. Most of teachings of Christianity seems to be wrong in your faith. Then how can you tell me to accept your ideologies without raising objections which seems to be false as per my faith. Only thing is that you can prove, why my faith is false and why your faith is correct. I can only explain why I believe my faith is true and why I am not believing in your ideologies. That is what I am trying to do…

 

[Micosil]

I’m not going to bother answering this because you obviously don’t know very much about other gods and goddesses, or their mythologies…

Please, if you’re going to talk about subjects in this discussion, at least have a real knowledge of them first even if it’s just a basic knowledge…

…

Here is a whole list of not very loving things that the god the bible did. How do you reconcile this and still call that god pure and perfect love?

rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

I respect your Pagan beliefs, but you should apply your own advice to yourself, as you seemed to judge the God of the Old Testament a bit too soon…

This topic has been done to death on the forums, the following two are answers given by apologists on this very issue you raised:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=352863

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19671

 

[mlamg]

Yes I am not an expert in your religion. That’s why I asked you the question. If you cannot answer that, please admit that, instead of blaming me.

Dont tell I dont know anything about your mythologies. I read Ramayana and Mahabharatha. I know the entire stories. I read Dasawathara (Ten incarnations of God) stories from Internet. My hindu friends told me that their religious philosophy Advaita Vedanta (Non Dual - Me and Atman (God) are one , is explanation of Vedas and Upanishads. That’s why I told that it God’s nature presented in Upanishads are pantheism (All are god) or pan in theism (every thing is in God)

Knowledge comes through reading, discussing etc. And deciding whether to believe that knowledge , is true or false is based on asking doubts through questions, raising objections etc. If you cannot reply to the questions (my doubts) or objections, that means your faith is imperfect or you are not fit enough (don’t have enough knowledge) to discuss about your faith.

I dont think those who look to this discussion in a neutral mind will consider my questions and objections are silly.

What you mean by discussion?. Accepting everything you tells without any objections?. My beliefs are deeply rooted in Christianity. That is true. Same like your belief are deeply rooted in your faith. Can you accept my christian faith with out objection?. No . Why?. Because your beliefs are based on your faith. Most of teachings of Christianity seems to be wrong in your faith. Then how can you tell me to accept your ideologies without raising objections which seems to be false as per my faith. Only thing is that you can prove, why my faith is false and why your faith is correct. I can only explain why I believe my faith is true and why I am not believing in your ideologies. That is what I am trying to do…

I’m not blaming you, I’m just saying that it’s getting wearisome to keep explaining the same thing over and over. Here’s my answer: go read #614, I answered this already.

I was referring to your statement that all the pagan gods hold weapons and are violent. That is a statement that shows your ignorance of Indo European pagan gods, or even Hindu gods.

You are still incorrect in calling the Upanishads, Vedas, or the concept of God in Hinduism pantheistic. It is PAN EN THEISTIC. All are NOT God. God is in all. Pantheism and Panentheism are entirely TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. It’s either one or the other, it can’t be both at the same time. I’m getting tired of saying this, it’s aggravating to me.

Whoever said that your faith is false and mine is correct??? There’s no such thing. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Yours is right for you, mine is right for me.