Ask a Pagan

[mlamg]

I respect your Pagan beliefs, but you should apply your own advice to yourself, as you seemed to judge the God of the Old Testament a bit too soon…

This topic has been done to death on the forums, the following two are answers given by apologists on this very issue you raised:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=352863

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19671

I’ve read these already and they are circular answers, they don’t make sense.

The first link says that the bible is true and inerrant, but also says that it’s manmade and is limited by man’s understanding of God at that time. These two different statements cannot me true at the same time. Either the bible is true and inerrant and God killed all of his creation, including innocent animals and humans, because he messed up and wanted to start all over again, or the bible is false because it’s based on manmade writings that have an imperfect understanding of God.

The second link basically says that God can do whatever the heck he wants, which is fine, but then you can’t say that God is pure and perfect love. Killing all of creation or groups of people because he wanted to and can do whatever the heck he wants is not loving. It’s asserting his power because he can and he feels like it.

So no, neither of these “answers” are an actual answer. They are not logical and they don’t make sense.

 

[Micosil]

…

Whoever said that your faith is false and mine is correct??? There’s no such thing. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Yours is right for you, mine is right for me.

If you mean absolutely blind faith, that is fine, but that is not what Catholicism is about.

There’s substantial proof and evidence surrounding much of the core tenets of Catholic Christianity. Can you reproduce proof/evidence at the same level for the Pagan gods you put your faith in?

 

[Brendan_64]

or the bible is false because it’s based on manmade writings that have an imperfect understanding of God.

The Bible is a collection of man-made writings, written by men who (by our very nature) had an imperfect understanding of God. These writings are however divinely inspired as the power of the Holy Spirit worked through these men to create the scriptures.

An imperfect understanding wouldn’t necessarily make what these men wrote false, it would simply mean that the men who wrote the Scriptures couldn’t have a perfect understanding of the full significance of what they wrote.

Something can be true and inerrant, yet at the same time be limited by the imperfect understanding of men at various times and places. God chooses how and when to reveal Himself and His Truths, it is an ongoing process with only God knowing the timescale of this plan. Revealed Truths do not contradict previously revealed Truths, they complement each other.

We don’t believe that the Scriptures were dictated to their authors by God (in the way Muslims believe the Qu’ran was) but the Holy Spirit worked within these men as they wrote the Scriptures.

 

[jerry_joseph]

I’m not blaming you, I’m just saying that it’s getting wearisome to keep explaining the same thing over and over. Here’s my answer: go read #614, I answered this already.

I was referring to your statement that all the pagan gods hold weapons and are violent. That is a statement that shows your ignorance of Indo European pagan gods, or even Hindu gods.

You are still incorrect in calling the Upanishads, Vedas, or the concept of God in Hinduism pantheistic. It is PAN EN THEISTIC. All are NOT God. God is in all. Pantheism and Panentheism are entirely TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. It’s either one or the other, it can’t be both at the same time. I’m getting tired of saying this, it’s aggravating to me.

Whoever said that your faith is false and mine is correct??? There’s no such thing. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Yours is right for you, mine is right for me.

Eastern christianity acknowledges Pan enthiesm but does not in your way, that everything is in God or Everything is Part of God. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity, creation is not “part of” God, and the Godhead is still distinct from creation; however, God is “within” all creation, thus the parsing of the word in Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christianity is “pan-entheism” (God indwells in all things) and not “panen-theism” (All things are part of God but God is more than the sum of all things).

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches have a doctrine called panentheism to describe the relationship between the Uncreated (God, who is omnipotent, eternal, and constant) and His creation that bears surface similarities with the panentheism described above but maintains a critical distinction.

Most specifically, these Churches teach that God is not the “watchmaker God” or mechanical God of philosophy found in Western European Enlightenment. Likewise, they teach that God is not the “stage magician God” who only shows up when performing miracles. Instead, the teaching of both these Churches is that God is not merely necessary to have created the universe, but that His active presence is necessary in some way for every bit of creation, from smallest to greatest, to continue to exist at all. That is, God’s energies maintain all things and all beings, even if those beings have explicitly rejected Him. His love of creation is such that he will not withdraw His presence, which would be the ultimate form of slaughter, not merely imposing death but ending existence, altogether. By this token, the entirety of creation is sanctified, and thus no part of creation can be considered innately evil. This does not deny the existence of evil in a fallen universe, only that it is not an innate property of creation.

This Orthodox Christian panentheism is distinct from a fundamentalist panentheism in that it maintains an ontological gulf or distance between the created and the Uncreated

orthodoxwiki.org/Panentheism

In Catholicism nature of God is based on Omnipresence

Nature of God as per traditional christian faith (Catholicsm and Orthodoxy)

newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

 

[mlamg]

If you mean absolutely blind faith, that is fine, but that is not what Catholicism is about.

There’s substantial proof and evidence surrounding much of the core tenets of Catholic Christianity. Can you reproduce proof/evidence at the same level for the Pagan gods you put your faith in?

Why would you feel the need to say this? Who said anything about blind faith?

I’m not sure I understand your question. What exactly do you want evidence of? Many spiritual paths are experiential or mystical, eg. the practitioner has an actual experience of God that convinces them that the path is the right one for them. I’m not sure what you’re asking me.

What core tenants are you referring to, and how would you say that they are “proven”? Proven to be what?

You do realize that 85% of the world’s population is NOT Catholic, right? If there was proven evidence that it was the only one true faith, you’d think more people would be practicing it.

 

[mlamg]

The Bible is a collection of man-made writings, written by men who (by our very nature) had an imperfect understanding of God. These writings are however divinely inspired as the power of the Holy Spirit worked through these men to create the scriptures.

An imperfect understanding wouldn’t necessarily make what these men wrote false, it would simply mean that the men who wrote the Scriptures couldn’t have a perfect understanding of the full significance of what they wrote.

Something can be true and inerrant, yet at the same time be limited by the imperfect understanding of men at various times and places. God chooses how and when to reveal Himself and His Truths, it is an ongoing process with only God knowing the timescale of this plan. Revealed Truths do not contradict previously revealed Truths, they complement each other.

We don’t believe that the Scriptures were dictated to their authors by God (in the way Muslims believe the Qu’ran was) but the Holy Spirit worked within these men as they wrote the Scriptures.

OK, so did the god of the bible kill all of his creation, including innocent animals and humans, because he messed up and wanted to start all over again, or didn’t he?

 

[jerry_joseph]

Whoever said that your faith is false and mine is correct??? There’s no such thing. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. Yours is right for you, mine is right for me.

I believe in Christianity because I feel it is true. I believe that it is fullness of truth. It is revelation of God to humanity. It is about a God who reveals himself to humanity. If I believe all are correct, or I dont have confidence that my faith is correct, then there is no logic in talking about my faith.

I believe that other religions and philosophical thoughts are originated due to the human search for God, which is due to the presence of Soul ,as Soul expresses thirst for search for its creator. I believe that holy spirit worked in other communities and religions to show guidelines , to establish morality among those societies.I accept What ever is good and true in that religions , I also believe that others have right to not to believe in Christianity, if it is not logical to them. As a christian I believe that it is my duty to express my faith. But it is not my duty to compel them to believe. Choice belongs to them.

In commandments that God gave through moses, it contains two sections God centric and Human centric. God centric commandments are for his choosen people. You can see God is written Human centric commandments in the mind of all human beings, which are the basis of morality in all cultures. Human centric commandments includes - Honor your father and mother, You shall not kill., You shall not commit adultery.You shall not steal.,You shall not bear false witness ,against your neighbor.You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.Also about abstain from doing the seven deadly sins such as Lust,Gluttony,Greed, Sloth,wrath,Envy, Pride and encourages to do Chastity,temperance, Charity,diligence, forgiveness, kindness and humility. All religions are based on motivating human beings to do these humanitarian virtues and preventing them from doing the deadly sins.

Main difference I found in christianity is that it is about a God coming to human beings for their salvation. Became one among us (Emmanuel). While all other religions teaches about human beings searching for God.

 

[mlamg]

Eastern christianity acknowledges Pan enthiesm but does not in your way, that everything is in God or Everything is Part of God.

Panentheism is NOT everything is in God or Everything is Part of God, why are you writing this? That is NOT my way. That is not what panentheism is. Panentheism is that the Divine, or God, is in all things. The Creator interpenetrate and sustains all his creation. The rest of your post describes panentheism perfectly. Why is my panentheism different than what you just described???

I’m not following you at all.

 

[mlamg]

God centric commandments are for his choosen people.

I never heard of this, what are god centric commandments?

I agree with what you said about why we search for God, and that morality is written into the being of all humans. That’s why we don’t need a religion to tell us right from wrong. We instinctively know what is right and what is wrong. I agree!

 

[jerry_joseph]

OK, so did the god of the bible kill all of his creation, including innocent animals and humans, because he messed up and wanted to start all over again, or didn’t he?

You cannot accept biblical God as a merciful God as he punishes creatures for their sins. From your words, I think you believe that merciful God means a forgiving machine. Forgiving without any repentance or a God who closes his eyes towards sins of humanity. A god who does not bothered about the morality of humanity.

We believe Biblical God as merciful God not because he is not a forgiving machine , but he forgives sins of those who repents with their full heart and who have real sense of guilty.

You considers natural forces as Gods. Merciful Gods or Part of that merciful God. Then why, merciful sun god punishes people with famine and drought. Why merciful wind good punishes and destroys shelters of human beings , kills all innocent animals and human beings every year. Why you cannot find cruelty among them , if they are living Gods.?, Why they are angry about their creations?

 

[Kallisto]

Will you please support the following statement with citations. I can’t find anything:

“Fr. Stanley Jaki of Seton Hall University wrote about it in God & the Sun at Fatima that many did not see anything at all, while others who believed they saw something differed on what it was they saw.”

I am reading reviews, because I don’t have the book, and I am not seeing either a denial or that many at the cova saw nothing…

“People failed to see the miracle of the sun” p. 356.

I no longer have the book, it came out several years ago, and I’m pulling from notes I’ve kept of past discussions elsewhere. As others suggested, it’s possible to purchase the book. Addedly I would be quite surprised that an internet search would not bring up results in which it’s noted Jaki mentioned that his research found that not all individuals saw the same thing or that there were those who saw nothing. As I recall, Jaki examined the event from believer and non-believer assertions alike and noted when something didn’t support belief in the event.

Would you agree with the following excerpt found here (see link) regarding Meessen’s statement? I am not asking you to believe what I believe about Fatima; just the logic of the statement:

No, I don’t agree that Meesen’s argument falls apart.

However I’m not interested in having an in-depth discussion on Fatima or the research on either stance. Nor is such the purpose of this thread. The point was that whether one believes in miracles is just that, something of belief. You surveying people of other religions you’ve encountered as to whether they’ve experienced “miracles” is not evidence to determine whether they do or don’t exist in any religion, including your own. First, most people, of any belief, have not personally experienced what Catholics define as “miracle”, including Catholics. So there’s a stronger likelihood to encounter individuals who haven’t experienced something miraculous than those who have. Second, the role of miracles in religions differs so the importance (or lack thereof) in Judaism or Islam or Buddhism vs. Catholicism will differ.

 

[jerry_joseph]

I never heard of this, what are god centric commandments?

I agree with what you said about why we search for God, and that morality is written into the being of all humans. That’s why we don’t need a religion to tell us right from wrong. We instinctively know what is right and what is wrong. I agree!

By term God centric commandments I mean those commandments which is focused on relationship with God such as I am the LORD your God:you shall not have strange Gods before me, You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day. It is for his chosen people.

For a non christian who cannot find the uniqueness and importance of Christ the Savior (from his pure heart), As a christian I feel no distinction for them whether they deny the requirement for a religion for them to live in morality or a religion is required for them to lead a moral life. Already God had written humanitarian values in the mind of all human beings , his conscience which helps him to distinguish between good and evil.

 

[jerry_joseph]

Panentheism is NOT everything is in God or Everything is Part of God, why are you writing this? That is NOT my way. That is not what panentheism is. Panentheism is that the Divine, or God, is in all things. The Creator interpenetrate and sustains all his creation. The rest of your post describes panentheism perfectly. Why is my panentheism different than what you just described???

I’m not following you at all.

Then your ideology is similar to eastern christian theologies

 

[Brendan_64]

OK, so did the god of the bible kill all of his creation, including innocent animals and humans, because he messed up and wanted to start all over again, or didn’t he?

The Catholic Church holds that the book of Genesis can be read as an allegorical text. The entire Bible is not an historical account, the different books of the Bible are of many different genres. These different genres express Truth in their own unique way, not all of the books of the Bible are literal.

CCC110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.

CCC115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

 

[Kallisto]

Then what you talking about, is not paganism

What I’m talking about is paganism, It seems you don’t know what exists in paganism. “Paganism” isn’t simply polytheism, one will find a variety of theistic expressions, including pantheism.

Most often pagans uses these types of philosophies to attract others to their faith , instead of directly inviting others to worship their idols.

Entirely false. Paganism do not proselytize nor otherwise attempt to convert individuals. Furthermore the fact that paganism ≠ idolatry has already been explained more than once by more than one person here. Statues are not the gods nor worshiped as such. If Pagans are idolators then so are Catholics. Don’t denigrate other religions when they don’t view statues any differently than your own.

I am expressing my faith. I am telling why I disagrees with you. If you have anything to tell me why I am wrong, you can point out that.

See above.

By the term Paganism, I mean worship of Idols, which is a result of human imagination… etc.

See above.

You have no understanding of the various theistic views that exist in the multitude of Pagan religions. What you choose to believe and what is actually the case are evidently entirely different things.

 

[mlamg]

Then your ideology is similar to eastern christian theologies

Exactly. We agree again.

 

[Kallisto]

Most of their mythologies are full of war and violence

Including the Bible.

 

[Kallisto]

Do hard polytheists tend to think that the Christian Trinity theology is a form of soft polytheism?

They don’t tend to think about it at all as its nature is only significant to Christians. Most would likely tell you it’s whatever the specific Christian religion being referenced views it to be.

 

[Kallisto]

The Greco-Roman gods do an outrageous amount of sinful things in their mythology. The Germanic deitys Are constantly fighting someone, and totally consent to sex outside of marriage. Not to mention the kind of stuff that the aztecs did

It should be noted Hellenic mythology is allegorical with the purpose of representing the nature of Man and his propensity for love, conflict, other foibles, etc. I.e., the myths are not literal and are meant to teach man lessons, in short to a life of virtue and piety over weakness and flaws. The gods’ roles in them is not dissimilar to that of a parent telling a child a story seemingly unrelated to a lesson they want their child to learn, as a way to convey understanding which the child doesn’t yet grasp the magnitude or meaning.

But pagan religions generally do not have a concept of sin.

Agreed.

 

[mlamg]

The Catholic Church holds that the book of Genesis can be read as an allegorical text. The entire Bible is not an historical account, the different books of the Bible are of many different genres. These different genres express Truth in their own unique way, not all of the books of the Bible are literal.

CCC110 In order to discover the sacred authors’ intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression.

CCC115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

Now I feel like I’m getting somewhere! That’s encouraging, thank you!