Ask a Pagan

[PRmerger]

I’m not aware that the resurrected Christ was claimed to have appeared to thousands of people; are there any gospel citations to that effect? It does appear that he was known by thousands, during his public ministry – making followers of many, enemies of others (many of the Pharisees, scribes, and chief priests, if we are to believe the gospels), but probably leaving few indifferent.

Ah, yes. My bad. I misconstrued thousands who were baptized with the number who Jesus appeared to.

It’s as if his public ministry ends, with the crucifixion – even in the gospels themselves, there is no further preaching to multitudes on hilltops, nor on boats, nor in the synagogue.

Right. Because Jesus did not come to be a preacher. He came to be the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. This was accomplished with his crucifixion.

The irony is that even if I am convinced by the gospel accounts of Christ’s resurrection, I am just as well justified in noting that he appeared, in the flesh, only to those who had already mourned his death (to Peter, to Mary Magdalene, to his other disciples).

I am confused by this statement. What are you suggesting here?

 

[Portofino]

Ah, yes. My bad. I misconstrued thousands who were baptized with the number who Jesus appeared to.

No problem, thank you for clarifying

am confused by this statement. What are you suggesting here?

I was saying there that I do find the resurrection to have been a very intimate event, similar to the Last Supper in this respect. It seems as if Jesus appeared to those who loved him most. Part of this would have been because these were the folks who were visiting the tomb, in the first place, everyone else having abandoned it (the multitudes were drawn by the miracles but presumably would have dispersed at the arrest and execution of Jesus).

The commission that the apostles were given was very public – “make disciples of all nations” – whereas it seems as if, between resurrection and the ascension, his apostles and closest disciples (Mary Magdalene, for example) had him largely to themselves. It was as if he was prepping them, as it were, for their more public mission. It seems as if a lot of time was spent alone with them.

Taking the gospel accounts seriously, I grant that this may have been by choice. It wasn’t up to Jesus to spread the good news of his resurrection, but up to his disciples (he did say, on the cross, “it is finished”). No longer did he preach from hilltops, or from a boat offshore, nor even heal multitudes of those who were sick. Thenceforth, this was to be their job, their commission.

wiki.answers.com/Q/What_did_Jesus_do_after_his_resurrection

 

[joe371]

Skadi;10827764]1. Yes, the gods are capable of lying just like any other entity.

Lying gods or whatever you call them. OK…

1. This entity, whatever it was, did on this occasion.

I can’t think of one single reason why the god’s would want to steer people to Christianity by pretending to be Mary, the Mother of God. Can you? What good can come from that, other than drawing people to God’s church, or a man-made church and a false God, (something you believe) if you are correct.

1. this entity did. But any sort of prayer or meditation can be helpful to personal growth.

Why pose as someone who is dead? Your words. You said she was dead and therefore could not appear to the children. Why put any focus on what you believe is a man-made region with no real God aka the Holy Trinity?

1. If you want to scare someone, not much scarier than that.

But why reveal something that does not exist, as you have clearly stated?

1. miracles appear in most all religions.

Again, please name those miracles, and yes I am sure they do, but I cannot locate any. Why would the gods (or entities) work miracles through the Christian figure. Just a simple, logical explanation, something I cannot come up with. Why shine so much light on a religion with no God, something you believe?

1. again i doubt it was a god and not some other entity, but who am I to say what they can and cannot do

The reason you refuse to accept the obvious conclusion seems to be due to the fact that you chose to reject the holy Trinity and God’s church (something I believe). Is that a fair assessment?

What if one of your gods did what happened in Fatima via one of their representatives, and that rep claimed that Odin, for example, worked the miracle. Would you assume that it was the work of Odin? I would.

 

[Andromedus]

It feels like this thread isn’t so much about Paganism anymore, but still I would like to ask what your beliefs are regarding fate? In the Pre-Christian Nordic religion fate was one of the most important parts of the worldview, not even the gods could defy it… although you could argue that Odin tried. So what are your beliefs regarding fate?

 

[Kallisto]

I’m curious about idol worship, if you know about that. Is there a preferred term for it that’s less pejorative? And what do such people want to tell us in order to explain what it is that they do?

Also- assuming you’re a pagan who doesn’t do this- what do you think of pagans who do, and how might you approach it differently from a monotheistic person?

Excuse me for jumping in suddenly, but I happened upon this site and saw this topic so decided to join the discussion.

I’m a polytheist (“pagan”) practicing Hellenic Reconstructionism, I’m also an initiated Trad Wiccan which is a bit different from the Eclectic/Solitary variety most people encounter. However I consider myself primarily a Hellenist.

To answer your question regarding “idol worship”, the Greeks did not see images of the gods as being a thing of worship. The various statues and temples were gifts to the gods, and while they were symbolic of the gods they were not viewed as being the gods. It is the gods who are worshiped, not icons of them. Images are not essential or required for worship.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Excuse me for jumping in suddenly, but I happened upon this site and saw this topic so decided to join the discussion.

I’m a polytheist (“pagan”) practicing Hellenic Reconstructionism, I’m also an initiated Trad Wiccan which is a bit different from the Eclectic/Solitary variety most people encounter. However I consider myself primarily a Hellenist.

To answer your question regarding “idol worship”, the Greeks did not see images of the gods as being a thing of worship. The various statues and temples were gifts to the gods, and while they were symbolic of the gods they were not viewed as being the gods. It is the gods who are worshiped, not icons of them. Images are not essential or required for worship.

That’s interesting. I have Hindu family, and I know that in Hinduism, they view the icon as being infused with the presence of the deities in question through a ritual. I assumed that sort of understanding would be similar in other non-Christian faiths that employ images in worship, but I guess not!

Question for you, if you don’t mind: are you a “hard” or “soft” polytheist? How do you view the gods?

 

[Kallisto]

Gardner claimed he learned Wicca from the last of a group of ancient witches but there is no evidence to substantiate this claim. So, despite some Wiccans claim that Wicca is some ancient religion which was persecuted in the witch hunts of the middle ages, this is wishful thinking and no evidence suggests Wicca existed before Gardner founded the New Forest Coven in the 30’s.

I’d like to add to this. Gardner spoke of encountering a small group of witches in the New Forest area of England. It was not that they were the last witches, depending on the source, there were either 3 or 4 covens total in the area, not just the one he was initiated into. Rather the coven’s practices were in danger of dying out as the practitioners were older (Gardner too was in his senior years).

There is scholarly research on the topic, most notably has been Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon”. Hutton does not dismiss the existence of the coven. Gardner stated the New Forest ways were fragmented and he endeavored to create a sustainable means of continuing it - resulting in what has since become known as “Wicca” (or more precisely in today’s terms, “Traditional Wicca”). The cause of the fragmentation is speculation, whether it was the loose remnants of some actual waning folk beliefs or one that was something begun during that esoteric renaissance that began in the 1800s. Researchers like Hutton and Philip Heselton tend to land on the side of the latter (as, I think, most people in general), postulating that the New Forest coven had formed in the early 1900s, which falls within that esotericism time frame. Doreen Valiente published research in the 1980s regarding Gardner’s initiation, finding vital records and locating the residence in which Gardner stated his initiation took place. Ronald Hutton does not discount the plausibility of the coven’s existence and Philip Heselton identified members of the NF coven.

No one educated today adheres to the notion of Wicca being thousands of years old, especially not Trad Wiccans. In the early 1900s there was a witch cult hypothesis that many thought to be true, including Gardner. It was popularized by anthropologist Margaret Murray but it did not originate with her. It arose in the 19th century, first put forth by scholars like Jules Michelet and Karl Jarcke. It subsequently gained popularity when Murray published her book, “Witch Cult in Western Europe”. The hypothesis is deemed the romanticizing of witchcraft, having come on the heals of centuries of anti-witch propaganda of the European witchcraft trials, and arose during a time when there was an esoteric renaissance in Europe. At the time it was considered to be sound and Gardner was certainly not the only person to have accepted it. Nor is it the only hypothesis to have been accepted at one point then later refuted by subsequent decades of scholarly research.

 

[Kallisto]

That’s interesting. I have Hindu family, and I know that in Hinduism, they view the icon as being infused with the presence of the deities in question through a ritual. I assumed that sort of understanding would be similar in other non-Christian faiths that employ images in worship, but I guess not!

Question for you, if you don’t mind: are you a “hard” or “soft” polytheist? How do you view the gods?

If the gods so choose they may, as you say, infuse it with their presence. But the icon is not the god himself, more akin to a dwelling place. Not dissimilar to referring to a church as a house of deity, the church itself is not the deity but is holy because it’s a place kept sacrosanct and filled with the deity’s presence.

I consider myself a hard polytheist.

 

[Kallisto]

You’re never heard of the religion called “wicca”? Seriously?? Interesting…

Yeah, I have heard of a religion called Wicca. Didn’t know anything about it. Just checked it out: “Wicca is a modern pagan, witchcraft religion.”

Btw, “witchcraft” is an umbrella term, there are many forms of witchcraft practices many of which are unrelated as each culture has had its folk practices that are, when translated into English, “witchcraft”. Much of witchcraft is secular, then there are some religions that employ it to whatever extent. Traditionally, Wicca is a pagan religion which employs witchcraft (the extent depends on the tradition or individual). There are ethnic/culture based witchcraft practices such as Celtic Witchcraft or Brujeria or Stregheria. There are individuals who identify as being of non-Craft related faiths who employ witchcraft including Christians (“Christo-witches”) and Jews (“Jewitches”). You’d have to ask either how they manage to reconcile their beliefs.

 

[ffg]

Excuse me for jumping in suddenly, but I happened upon this site and saw this topic so decided to join the discussion.

I’m a polytheist (“pagan”) practicing Hellenic Reconstructionism, I’m also an initiated Trad Wiccan which is a bit different from the Eclectic/Solitary variety most people encounter. However I consider myself primarily a Hellenist.

To answer your question regarding “idol worship”, the Greeks did not see images of the gods as being a thing of worship. The various statues and temples were gifts to the gods, and while they were symbolic of the gods they were not viewed as being the gods. It is the gods who are worshiped, not icons of them. Images are not essential or required for worship.

Welcome to CAF! Thanks for contributing.

I hope you are able to poke around a bit. I don’t think you’ll find a better site geared toward discussion of what many feel very sensitive about.

You will get some straight forward Catholic responses. But that is to be expected, and we can only hope desired when asking.

 

[Kallisto]

A pagan is a religionist who is neither Christian, Jew, nor Muslim.

They can be Hindu, Buddhist, etc, or they can make up their own pagan religion.

Depends on who’s using the word “pagan”. Not all non-Abrahamic religions self-identify as “pagan” and would be insulted to be referred to as such. “Pagan” in modern times refers to those religions that fall under the general heading of Neo-paganism, which religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Native American do not (though among Neopagans are individuals who have borrowed from these religions to incorporate into their own practices).

 

[PRmerger]

I was saying there that I do find the resurrection to have been a very intimate event, similar to the Last Supper in this respect. It seems as if Jesus appeared to those who loved him most.

Well, if you want to call 500 people “intimate”, okay.

After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.–1 Corinthians 5:6

 

[davidneff]

So, seeing as there are a couple other threads thrown up by people of various faiths for questions on their religion i figured id do it too.

“Ask a Pagan” is a very broad term though and Paganism is not itself a religion but a blanket term for many who form a sort of community. In addition, various Pagan faiths are very eclectic and there is no Bible or Catechism to outline beliefs, but I have a good general knowledge of paganism (and the occult sense I know the questions are coming) and I’ll do my best to answer any questions.

I was raised catholic and went k-12 in the catholic school system, learned catholic doctrine and apologetics, and understand Catholicisms teachings pretty well. So I look forward to any questions you may have or discussions that may come.

Stay classy Catholics

What evidence do you have that the god(s) of Paganism that you worship actually exist?

 

[Portofino]

Well, if you want to call 500 people “intimate”, okay.

500 people – no

This account in Corinthians certainly provides balance to the accounts given in the Gospels, which are comparatively more private, indeed “intimate.”

 

[PRmerger]

500 people – no

This account in Corinthians certainly provides balance to the accounts given in the Gospels, which are comparatively more private, indeed “intimate.”

To be sure.

It ought to be noted that even if the gospels make Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances more “intimate” in nature (something rather arguable), this does not make the Corinthians narrative contradictory.

 

[Skadi]

What evidence do you have that the god(s) of Paganism that you worship actually exist?

Well recently I finally had a personal experience after a long time training with astral travel. But that is personal revelation and dosn’t factor into an argument. Im a soft polytheist so I believe all pagan deity’s and pantheons are faces of the “Is All”. The “Is All” is everywhere, and includes all life; You, me, every tree, squirrel, blade of grass, single celled amoeba, spirit, elemental, and diety. Everywhere there is life I guess you could consider that proof. But if you are asking for a scientifically verifiable event or item, no we don’t have one.

 

[Skadi]

What is your source for this?

Loki, god of mischief (although technically a Giant by birth), lies and devices constantly in the Eddas.

 

[Skadi]

It feels like this thread isn’t so much about Paganism anymore, but still I would like to ask what your beliefs are regarding fate? In the Pre-Christian Nordic religion fate was one of the most important parts of the worldview, not even the gods could defy it… although you could argue that Odin tried. So what are your beliefs regarding fate?

I believe in the Nords, weavers of mens fates. It was hard for me to accept at first, I had alwase believed that if one worked hard they could make a better destiny for themselves, but eventually I cam to the conclusion that if one works hard to better their fate, then obliviously it all was fated haha, if that makes sense. No man can escape his destiny, not even the gods.

Outside a strictly Germanic point of view this makes sense. Even the gods are not all powerful, but just mighty incarnations of the “Is All”.

 

[PRmerger]

Loki, god of mischief (although technically a Giant by birth), lies and devices constantly in the Eddas.

Can you cite your source? Where is this written? And who witnessed Loki doing this? Was it a historian? Or was it a Believer?

 

[davidneff]

Well recently I finally had a personal experience after a long time training with astral travel. But that is personal revelation and dosn’t factor into an argument. Im a soft polytheist so I believe all pagan deity’s and pantheons are faces of the “Is All”. The “Is All” is everywhere, and includes all life; You, me, every tree, squirrel, blade of grass, single celled amoeba, spirit, elemental, and diety. Everywhere there is life I guess you could consider that proof. But if you are asking for a scientifically verifiable event or item, no we don’t have one.

So why should I become a Pagan?