Ask a Pagan

[Skadi]

I’d like to add to this. Gardner spoke of encountering a small group of witches in the New Forest area of England. It was not that they were the last witches, depending on the source, there were either 3 or 4 covens total in the area, not just the one he was initiated into. Rather the coven’s practices were in danger of dying out as the practitioners were older (Gardner too was in his senior years).

There is scholarly research on the topic, most notably has been Ronald Hutton’s “Triumph of the Moon”. Hutton does not dismiss the existence of the coven. Gardner stated the New Forest ways were fragmented and he endeavored to create a sustainable means of continuing it - resulting in what has since become known as “Wicca” (or more precisely in today’s terms, “Traditional Wicca”). The cause of the fragmentation is speculation, whether it was the loose remnants of some actual waning folk beliefs or one that was something begun during that esoteric renaissance that began in the 1800s. Researchers like Hutton and Philip Heselton tend to land on the side of the latter (as, I think, most people in general), postulating that the New Forest coven had formed in the early 1900s, which falls within that esotericism time frame. Doreen Valiente published research in the 1980s regarding Gardner’s initiation, finding vital records and locating the residence in which Gardner stated his initiation took place. Ronald Hutton does not discount the plausibility of the coven’s existence and Philip Heselton identified members of the NF coven.

No one educated today adheres to the notion of Wicca being thousands of years old, especially not Trad Wiccans. In the early 1900s there was a witch cult hypothesis that many thought to be true, including Gardner. It was popularized by anthropologist Margaret Murray but it did not originate with her. It arose in the 19th century, first put forth by scholars like Jules Michelet and Karl Jarcke. It subsequently gained popularity when Murray published her book, “Witch Cult in Western Europe”. The hypothesis is deemed the romanticizing of witchcraft, having come on the heals of centuries of anti-witch propaganda of the European witchcraft trials, and arose during a time when there was an esoteric renaissance in Europe. At the time it was considered to be sound and Gardner was certainly not the only person to have accepted it. Nor is it the only hypothesis to have been accepted at one point then later refuted by subsequent decades of scholarly research.

Iteresting, you are entirely correct about Murrays work, however I hadnt heard about this evidence regarding the original NF practitioners. That would surely help explain the elements of ceremonial magic in Wicca.

 

[mek42]

So why should I become a Pagan?

Skadi, do you even care if anyone else embraces your paganisim?

 

[Skadi]

Skadi, do you even care if anyone else embraces your paganisim?

No, not in the least. a persons faith is their own matter. There are no pagan missionary’s that I know of, and proselytizing is generally very looked down upon by pagans. Anyone who has seen people protesting at an event and screaming scripture verses and threats of hell knows you dont want to be that guy.

 

[PRmerger]

Anyone who has seen people protesting at an event and screaming scripture verses and threats of hell knows you dont want to be that guy.

True, dat. :sad_yes:

 

[Skadi]

Can you cite your source? Where is this written? And who witnessed Loki doing this? Was it a historian? Or was it a Believer?

In the Poetic Edda poem “Lokasenna” Loki arrives at a feast at the hall of Ægir and takes advantage of the gods hospitality to taunt them. The god Bragi responds that, were they outside of Ægir’s hall, he would be holding Loki’s head as a reward for his lies. This is both a reference to what Loki says directly (he implies that he has had sex with almost every different female character in the poem at some point or another) and in the past, as Loki has tricked the gods on many occasions.

Christians believe their god does not lie, but ours certainly can if they want to, just like any other being.

 

[Skadi]

True, dat. :sad_yes:

Actually an interesting side story, there was a fire and brimstone street preacher at my college one day, and while he wasn’t being flat out harassed by the people watching him I used my high school catholic apologetics on him just for the sake of arguing. My old theology teacher was very proud.

 

[PRmerger]

In the Poetic Edda poem “Lokasenna” Loki arrives at a feast at the hall of Ægir and takes advantage of the gods hospitality to taunt them. The god Bragi responds that, were they outside of Ægir’s hall, he would be holding Loki’s head as a reward for his lies. This is both a reference to what Loki says directly (he implies that he has had sex with almost every different female character in the poem at some point or another) and in the past, as Loki has tricked the gods on many occasions.

Christians may think their god does not lie, but ours certainly can if they want to, just like any other being.

Interesting. But was the person who wrote this actually at the feast in the hall of Aegir?

 

[Skadi]

So why should I become a Pagan?

Learn about it, read it. if it makes sense to you, if you feal it and it calls to you, then go ahead. If not, well do as you will, we dont try and convert people, nor say those who arnt pagan will suffer.

 

[davidneff]

Learn about it, read it. if it makes sense to you, if you feal it and it calls to you, then go ahead. If not, well do as you will, we dont try and convert people, nor say those who arnt pagan will suffer.

What is your view of the afterlife? Is there life after death?

 

[PRmerger]

Actually an interesting side story, there was a fire and brimstone street preacher at my college one day, and while he wasn’t being flat out harassed by the people watching him I used my high school catholic apologetics on him just for the sake of arguing. My old theology teacher was very proud.

Really? You learned Catholic apologetics in high school?

You do know that apologetics is different from catechesis, and even more different than theology.

So did your theology teacher teach you apologetics, catechesis and theology?

 

[Skadi]

Interesting. But was the person who wrote this actually at the feast in the hall of Aegir?

No, I take the stories as allegorical myths, as do alot of pagans. They illustrate the natures of the gods and present us with example of honorable and dishonorable actions and universal truth.

I dont think the poem is a historical account, although it well could have happened like that. Although the Poetic Edda dates as a book too the Thirteenth century the oldest copy in existence belonged to an Icelandic Bishop in the 17th century. So the stories origins are unknown, and the oldest copy is about 250 years after the original transcribing into a contemporary language from Runic. The Story could have been told directly by a attending God or Elf to the originator, or maybe, however unlikely, they were there. it may likewise have been inspired in a way similar to how Christians believe the bible was, by working through and influencing the writer or developing it from folklore and myth rather than telling them directly.

The origin is unknown but because it is the symbolism that matters to us we dont see that as a huge deal. Assuming you dont have a fundimantalist view of the bible, id say they are similar to Genesis and other early books of Jewish scripture, they arn’t a history book.

 

[Skadi]

Really? You learned Catholic apologetics in high school?

You do know that apologetics is different from catechesis, and even more different than theology.

So did your theology teacher teach you apologetics, catechesis and theology?

haha yes. I attended a top-50 catholic High school in a county thats 80-some % catholic.

We took theology class, and senior year focused on apologetics and a brief overview of non-catholic religion. In previous years we did stuff like church history, scripture, and moral theology. Theology really just meant religion class, but we learned theology among other things.

 

[Skadi]

What is your view of the afterlife? Is there life after death?

Yes, my personal belief is in Valhalla, traditional Germanic afterlife.

Valhalla is the hall of Odin, and those who die honorably in battle and/or have lived a honorable life as a mighty warrior are carried up to Valhalla. There, they drink, Feast, and train for Ragnarok, the battle at the end of the world.

Those who do not go to Valhalla go to Hel/Helheim which is a cold, dark, misty place in Niflheim (the world of ice).

Also, because im a soft polytheist and pretty open to interpretation i would say I probably cant even fathom the truth about the afterlife and what awaits. One popular twist on this in Neo paganism is to somehow incorporate reincarnation, but thats an ecclectic addition not based on original paganism.

Other pagan traditions will have their own afterlifes such as Hades or the Summerland.

 

[PRmerger]

haha yes. I attended a top-50 catholic High school in a county thats 80-some % catholic.

We took theology class, and senior year focused on apologetics and a brief overview of non-catholic religion. In previous years we did stuff like church history, scripture, and moral theology. Theology really just meant religion class, but we learned theology among other things.

Interesting.

Mind if I quiz you? Can you tell me (without searching Fr. Google or anything else) why priests cannot be female? That is, could you provide the Catholic apologia for this?

 

[joe371]

Learn about it, read it. if it makes sense to you, if you feal it and it calls to you, then go ahead. If not, well do as you will…

Seems reasonable.

The reason you refuse to accept the obvious conclusion of what happened at Fatima, seems to be due to the fact that you chose to reject the holy Trinity and God’s church, (something I believe) in terms of their beliefs. Is that a fair assessment?

What if one of your gods actually did, what happened in Fatima via one of their representatives, and that rep claimed that Odin, for example, worked the miracle. Would you assume that it was the work of Odin? I would.I would have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I take the stories as allegorical myths, as do alot of pagans. They illustrate the natures of the gods and present us with example of honorable and dishonorable actions and universal truth.

Ah, I see, then.

So when you say that Loki did something you mean it in the same way that we mean that Johnny Appleseed did something?

 

[josh987654321]

Yes, my personal belief is in Valhalla, traditional Germanic afterlife.

Valhalla is the hall of Odin, and those who die honorably in battle and/or have lived a honorable life as a mighty warrior are carried up to Valhalla. There, they drink, Feast, and train for Ragnarok, the battle at the end of the world.

What side of that battle do you think you will be on? good or evil?

So the ones you worship advocate violence in life and more violence in the afterlife? do you think violence is good?

Like I said before, honor is very subjective, God may find “good” acts as honorable while Satan may find “evil” acts honorable.

So what acts constitute honor?

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Skadi]

Seems reasonable.

The reason you refuse to accept the obvious conclusion of what happened at Fatima, seems to be due to the fact that you chose to reject the holy Trinity and God’s church, (something I believe) in terms of their beliefs. Is that a fair assessment?

What if one of your gods actually did, what happened in Fatima via one of their representatives, and that rep claimed that Odin, for example, worked the miracle. Would you assume that it was the work of Odin? I would.I would have no reason to believe otherwise.

Thats reasonable. Thats is why I am suspicous of it, but most people tend to be suspicious of other religions miracles.

all people seek first to understand something by their own worldview, and only if it is incompatible will they look for other explanations.

If Jesus appeared to me today and told me he wants me to believe in him, I would first try to rationalize it with my own world view, and if I could not I would seriously consider looking for one that fit my new understanding.

Likewise if today you encountered Odin in his form as a wanderer, Gandalf style clothing and all, and he said he wanted you in Valhalla, and you need only honor the gods, I think you to would try to rationalize it into your christian world view first.

Alot of times pagan people talk about personal faith experiences a christian suggests they are demons in league with Satan, and that is one option for explaining this you could take.

Likewise for Jesus I could probably say that maybe it was a mirage or maybe some spirit playing games with me.

The truth is none of us know how we would react in such a situation until it is presented to us. We tend to approach anything that dosnt ft with our world view with skepticism.

 

[josh987654321]

Alot of times pagan people talk about personal faith experiences a christian suggests they are demons in league with Satan, and that is one option for explaining this you could take.

You can tell who they are by their fruits.

Likewise for Jesus I could probably say that maybe it was a mirage or maybe some spirit playing games with me.

You could. But would you not consider his message? the fruits he produces.

If hell contained love, mercy, forgiveness, peace and humility, (Jesus Christ) than that is where I would want to go regardless of what others called it.

Thats why Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life.” We recognise him because of his fruits.

The truth is none of us know how we would react in such a situation until it is presented to us. We tend to approach anything that dosnt ft with our world view with skepticism.

True. However it’s important to consider the fruits of your religion, think about what it advocates and whether that is good or bad, if you think hatred and violence are good things, than you are right where you belong and those are the things you will reap.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Skadi]

What side of that battle do you think you will be on? good or evil?

So the ones you worship advocate violence in life and more violence in the afterlife? do you think violence is good?

Like I said before, honor is very subjective, God may find “good” acts as honorable while Satan may find “evil” acts honorable.

So what acts constitute honor?

Thank you for reading
Josh

On the side of the Gods against the Jotun, Loki, the fire demon Surt, and various other malicious entity’s. The Idea of a final clash of good and evil is a pretty common theme in religion.

Violence is a natural part of life, whether it is good or bad depends on the context of the action. Defending ones family or property from an attacker is a very honorable deed. Honor would be in keeping with the traditions of ones culture and religion. As such, a Hindu will have a different Idea of honor from an Arab or a Samurai or a Viking. Honor is subjective to ones culture but because I am a Germanic pagan i seek to emulate the Germanic ideas of honor. Courage is honorable, self-sufficiency, bravery, fortitude and determination are all honorable. To die on the battlefield is honorable. Every day i wish at least once for an opportunity for that to happen some day.