Ask a pagan

  • Thread starter Thread starter RiverStone
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
freeRadical said:
Statements like this is what makes me question your understanding of the Trinity. They are not 3 gods, they are one God.
Click to expand...
Statements like “your gods are demons” make me question people’s understanding of my Gods. I think we can all learn here is that when people apply their “doctrine” (loosely on Skadi’s end really) to other people’s religion it is frustrating.
 
freeRadical said:
Statements like this is what makes me question your understanding of the Trinity. They are not 3 gods, they are one God.
Click to expand...
Oh no I understand most Christians view them as one, but in the gospels Jesus (if those quotes are truly accurate) seems to clearly differentiate between himself and god.

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.”

If he and the father are one they why would they need to go through him to reach the father? he is the father isnt he? This isnt what this thread is about, but if people are intent on discussing why I am no longer Catholic I will explain the fault, gaps, and problems which lead me to leave Christendom.
 
Contarini said:
Does Skadi worship either Mesopotamian or Greco-Roman gods?

I thought he/she worshiped the Germanic gods, who are not mentioned in Scripture to my knowledge.

Granted, they’re recognizably similar to the Greco-Roman gods, so perhaps your remark is accurate. But I’m not sure.

Given the close connection in the Bible between empire-building and idolatry, it’s not clear to me that we should apply the Bible’s strong language to non-empire-building societies without some qualification. In fact, in the confrontation (say) between Charlemagne and the Saxons, I’m not sure that the demon-worship wasn’t more on Charlemagne’s side than on that of the pagans. It was Charlemagne, not the Saxons, who was living by the pagan (and Biblically, the demoinic) dictum “debellare superbos” (which actually means, as St. Augustine pointed out, exalting your own pride while beating down that of others).

Edwin
Click to expand...
I dont follow any of those particular dietys, however the others are right, the bible condemns all deities but YHWH.

Sort of a fun fact rant here but:
Most gods worshiped in the west and the near east grew out of the original Indo-Aryan deities. About 10,000 years ago the Aryan people left their homeland in central Turkey and migrated in several mass waves across Europe, southwest Asia, and north Africa. They intermixed with the peoples they encountered and their language and religion became the basis for most Indo-European culture. Nearly every language from Belfast to Bangalore can be traced back to their dialects. Additionally, their religion also had a profound effect on that of western and Indo-Persian civilization. In India, it formed the basis of what is now Hinduism, and most of the names of European dietys can be followed back to the Aryan pantheon. For instance the Greco-Roman Sky God Zeus/Jupiter, The Germanic War God Tyr/Tywaz, the Hindu title Deva/Deava, and the pan-Celtic Deuos can all be traced linguistically back to Dyeus, the Indo-Aryian Sky God.
 
Skadi said:
Oh no I understand most Christians view them as one, but in the gospels Jesus (if those quotes are truly accurate) seems to clearly differentiate between himself and god.

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.”

If he and the father are one they why would they need to go through him to reach the father? he is the father isnt he? This isnt what this thread is about, but if people are intent on discussing why I am no longer Catholic I will explain the fault, gaps, and problems which lead me to leave Christendom.
Click to expand...
Jesus does make the distinction that you point out, but he is not making the distinction between Himself and God; He is differentiating between Himself (Son) and the Father. To be fair, I can understand why your knowledge of the Bible may be incomplete since it is no longer your sacred text. So, let’s look at a fuller picture of what Jesus is saying.

As we read the gospels, we find Jesus saying something new about God–there are hints and foreshadowings of it in the Old Testament, but certainly no statement. Alongside his insistence that God is one, there is a continual reference to some sort of plurality. There is no watering-down of the strictest monotheism–Jesus quotes from the Old Testament: “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God.” But there is a new element of more-than-oneness, which still leaves the oneness perfect.

Matthew (11:27) and Luke (10:22) give us one phrase: “No one knows the Son but the Father; and no one knows the Father but the Son.” Here are two persons put on the same level. “I and the Father are one” (Jn 10:30). They are two persons, yet one.

At the very end of Matthew’s Gospel, a third is brought in, still within the oneness–“Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit”–three persons, but with the one name, and therefore one nature, since God names things for what they are.

What is especially to be noticed is a kind of “interchangeableness.” When Phillip the Apostle says, “Let us see the Father,” Jesus answers, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” Similarly, Jesus says that he will answer our prayer (Jn 14:14) and that his Father will (Jn 16:23), that he will send the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:7) and that his Father will (Jn 14:16).

In the doctrine of the Trinity, all these phrases fall into place.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Jesus does make the distinction that you point out, but he is not making the distinction between Himself and God; He is differentiating between Himself (Son) and the Father. To be fair, I can understand why your knowledge of the Bible may be incomplete since it is no longer your sacred text. So, let’s look at a fuller picture of what Jesus is saying.

As we read the gospels, we find Jesus saying something new about God–there are hints and foreshadowings of it in the Old Testament, but certainly no statement. Alongside his insistence that God is one, there is a continual reference to some sort of plurality. There is no watering-down of the strictest monotheism–Jesus quotes from the Old Testament: “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God.” But there is a new element of more-than-oneness, which still leaves the oneness perfect.

Matthew (11:27) and Luke (10:22) give us one phrase: “No one knows the Son but the Father; and no one knows the Father but the Son.” Here are two persons put on the same level. “I and the Father are one” (Jn 10:30). They are two persons, yet one.

At the very end of Matthew’s Gospel, a third is brought in, still within the oneness–“Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit”–three persons, but with the one name, and therefore one nature, since God names things for what they are.

What is especially to be noticed is a kind of “interchangeableness.” When Phillip the Apostle says, “Let us see the Father,” Jesus answers, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” Similarly, Jesus says that he will answer our prayer (Jn 14:14) and that his Father will (Jn 16:23), that he will send the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:7) and that his Father will (Jn 14:16).

In the doctrine of the Trinity, all these phrases fall into place.
Click to expand...
Impressive quotes 👍. I cede this theoretical
 
Randy_Carson said:
“With” you? Not even a little. But I understand your point.

Since you folks have already acknowledged elsewhere that you do not worship the Creator of all things, then your gods either mythical beings who simply do not exist outside your own imaginations or storybooks or more problematically, they are real demons who manifest themselves as the beings you know in order to divert your attention away from the true God who made all things. IOW, they may be very real, but they are not what they appear to be.

As for me being misled by “satan”, let me just say this: the Catholic Church has been preaching against Satan, casting out demons, delivering people held in bondage, and preaching the Cross of Christ for over 2,000 years. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
Click to expand...
Ok Jesus burned the Pharisee with that one too. 😃
However I do not believe in your view of world order. It’s like a proponent of string theory arguing quantum physics with someone who finds the theory to be inadequate. The difference is here we can’t wait for scientific proof. The only proof will come with death.
 
Skadi said:
I dont follow any of those particular dietys, however the others are right, the bible condemns all deities but YHWH.

Sort of a fun fact rant here but:
Most gods worshiped in the west and the near east grew out of the original Indo-Aryan deities. About 10,000 years ago the Aryan people left their homeland in central Turkey and migrated in several mass waves across Europe, southwest Asia, and north Africa. They intermixed with the peoples they encountered and their language and religion became the basis for most Indo-European culture. Nearly every language from Belfast to Bangalore can be traced back to their dialects. Additionally, their religion also had a profound effect on that of western and Indo-Persian civilization. In India, it formed the basis of what is now Hinduism, and most of the names of European dietys can be followed back to the Aryan pantheon. For instance the Greco-Roman Sky God Zeus/Jupiter, The Germanic War God Tyr/Tywaz, the Hindu title Deva/Deava, and the pan-Celtic Deuos can all be traced linguistically back to Dyeus, the Indo-Aryian Sky God.
Click to expand...
I don’t mean to be rude but you don’t know that… :o

In fact no one does, only God knows ok?
 
Skadi said:
Impressive quotes 👍. I cede this theoretical
Click to expand...
Thank you, Skadi.

Since Jesus has claimed to be God, we have to ask, “Is His claim true?”

It is possible that Jesus was a madman, a lunatic on par with those who claim to be Abraham Lincoln or a poached egg. If that is the case, then no matter how sincere He was in His belief that He is God, we should reject his claim because it is false.

It is also possible that Jesus knew full well that He was not God but made the claim anyway and misled His followers into believing that He was God. If this is the case, he was a charlatan and a liar, and we should pay no further attention to Him for not matter how fine-sounding His words may be, He is not God.

If, on the other hand, Jesus is neither a lunatic or a liar, then we are left with the very real possibility, in fact the reality, that Jesus is who He claimed to be: Lord of all creation.

This, then is the question to be answered: Is Jesus Christ God?
 
Randy_Carson said:
Thank you, Skadi.

Since Jesus has claimed to be God, we have to ask, “Is His claim true?”

It is possible that Jesus was a madman, a lunatic on par with those who claim to be Abraham Lincoln or a poached egg. If that is the case, then no matter how sincere He was in His belief that He is God, we should reject his claim because it is false.

It is also possible that Jesus knew full well that He was not God but made the claim anyway and misled His followers into believing that He was God. If this is the case, he was a charlatan and a liar, and we should pay no further attention to Him for not matter how fine-sounding His words may be, He is not God.

If, on the other hand, Jesus is neither a lunatic or a liar, then we are left with the very real possibility, in fact the reality, that Jesus is who He claimed to be: Lord of all creation.

This, then is the question to be answered: Is Jesus Christ God?
Click to expand...
Someone admitted the lack of definite knowledge!!! Now we can have productive discussion!!! :extrahappy:
 
Randy_Carson said:
Thank you, Skadi.

Since Jesus has claimed to be God, we have to ask, “Is His claim true?”

It is possible that Jesus was a madman, a lunatic on par with those who claim to be Abraham Lincoln or a poached egg. If that is the case, then no matter how sincere He was in His belief that He is God, we should reject his claim because it is false.

It is also possible that Jesus knew full well that He was not God but made the claim anyway and misled His followers into believing that He was God. If this is the case, he was a charlatan and a liar, and we should pay no further attention to Him for not matter how fine-sounding His words may be, He is not God.

If, on the other hand, Jesus is neither a lunatic or a liar, then we are left with the very real possibility, in fact the reality, that Jesus is who He claimed to be: Lord of all creation.

This, then is the question to be answered: Is Jesus Christ God?
Click to expand...
Personally, and i mean this with absolutely no insult intended, I would go with the first option. The knowledge of mental health in 1st century Judea was almost non existent. And again I dont mean that as a insult.
 
Ecclesiaticus_S said:
YOU LIE! :mad:

We know and love Jesus! we only wish to know and love and serve God!
Click to expand...
So when I make a broad statement about slow evolution of culture and linguistics over thousands of years that is supported by factual evidence its “you cant know that for sure of that” but when its “you cant be sure about a very specific story about a 1st century Judean carpenter that has to be infallible” its a hissy fit? I honestly cant read you? are you just here to try and troll or do you come here with real purpose?
 
Skadi said:
So when I make a broad statement about slow evolution of culture and linguistics over thousands of years that is supported by factual evidence its “you cant know that for sure of that” but when its “you cant be sure about a very specific story about a 1st century Judean carpenter that has to be infallible” its a hissy fit? I honestly cant read you? are you just here to try and troll or do you come here with real purpose?
Click to expand...
This is a Catholic forum.
 
Ecclesiaticus_S said:
This is a Catholic forum.
Click to expand...
You still shouldn’t be a nihilist concerning things like anthropology and etymology when you are asserting your religion as indisputable fact. The contradictions might not be a favor to your fellow Catholics.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top