Ask a Pentecostal

[Steveabrous]

I’m not sure what point you are making with these scriptures? Were you trying to prove what? I’m not getting it. Paul is talking about proper order in worship. He doesn’t say anything about who can speak in tongues or not. If anything, it shows that a lot of people at Corinth had the gift of speaking in tongues and that is why Paul had to limit its use in public because everyone wanted to speak in tongues during the church service. So Paul says, “To many of yall is trying to give messages in tongues! You need to sit down and limit messages in tongues to 2 or 3 per service!”

i had thought you had posted that Paul was saying everyone could speak in tongues in a church service. i guess i was wrong.

I quoted the part about women keeping silent in church because it seems to me that women play a big role in the Pentecostal services. Again, I live in a heavy AOG area. And it seems that these groups are lead, a lot of times, by women. As well the Pentecostal movement has produced more women pastors then any other church.

I’m wondering how you reconcile the fact that in the same letter, in fact, the same chapter that Pentecostals quote so much Paul says women should be silent in church. Yet the Pentecostal movement seems to ignore that part?

 

[ltwin]

Oh, haha. I got ya. But how is the Gospel being preached correctly if men are interpreting it differently for their own benefit or because they trully believe what they read is correct? It shows that all these churches divided from the CC because they didnt think something was right or they (men) thought they new exactly what the Gospels were saying or they thought the Church should be teaching it a different way. IMO, these men that started their own churches were lead away be evil (satan) as to cause division among the CC.

And you are welcome to your opinion. I see the matter the differently.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Itwin:

What do you think of the Montanist movement of the 2nd century of which Tertullian became a member?

I’ve read of it being compared to Pentacostalism. Could you express the similarities/differences? Would you consider Montanism heresy?

Thanks!

 

[Steveabrous]

That’s one interpretation. Yet, Paul did not explicitly say, “Tongues are the least of the gifts.” I agree though, tongues should not be overemphasized. They serve a purpose, but they should not be made the end all and be all of Christian experience.

if he isn’t listing them in order of importance, then why does he say First are Apostles? And how do you determine which are the greater gifts?

 

[joe370]

I’m not saying that Christ failed. I’m saying that WE did. People failed. But what satan meant for evil, God has made for good. The gospel has continued to be preached despite our differences and divisions.

Has doctrinal truth been preserved within Christendom, in your opinion in spite of the differences and division within Christendom? I just don’t see it, even in my own family. Regarding the Eucharist, my sister believes one thing, my dad another, and myself another…Jesus talks about eternal life in relation to specific teachings, only a couple of times e.g. trust in Jesus and accept Him into your life, Baptism and the Eucharist. Knowing the truth about them seems rather important, but according to non-Catholics (that I have talked to) there is no clear-cut way to know the truth about the Eucharist. It seems that God failed to preserve the truth about the Eucharist, if they are right. Your thoughts friend?

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day…This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever…For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me."

 

[kimg901]

And you are welcome to your opinion. I see the matter the differently.

I know. We are all entlitled to our opinion. And I respect yours and your courage for getting on here with all us sinners and answering to the best of your ability. God Bless.

 

[ltwin]

i had thought you had posted that Paul was saying everyone could speak in tongues in a church service. i guess i was wrong.

See post number 64, page 5. There I distinguish between “prayer language” (i.e. prayer, singing, praise, and thanksgiving in tongues) from “messages in tongues” to the congregation.

I quoted the part about women keeping silent in church because it seems to me that women play a big role in the Pentecostal services. Again, I live in a heavy AOG area. And it seems that these groups are lead, a lot of times, by women. As well the Pentecostal movement has produced more women pastors then any other church.

You are right. Pentecostals generally tend towards allowing women to lead churches.

You correctly point out that the Assemblies of God permits women’s ordination. They have a position paper laying out their beliefs on the matter: The Role of Women in Ministry as Described in Holy Scripture. You might also find this article by AG General Superintendent George O. Wood informative as well: “Exploring Why We Think The Way We Do About Women In Ministry”.

I’m wondering how you reconcile the fact that in the same letter, in fact, the same chapter that Pentecostals quote so much Paul says women should be silent in church. Yet the Pentecostal movement seems to ignore that part?

There are some Pentecostals who place varying restrictions on the degree to which women can be involved in church leadership. The following is a report commissioned by the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) that studies the issue and offers different positions: A Study of the Issue of Women Serving as Ordained Bishops.

To clarify, the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) allows women to be pastors but does not allow them to sit on denominational governing bodies (for which they have to be ordained bishops).

 

[pismopal]

No conclusion. I don’t consider tongues as an expression of Christian commitment. I consider it a gift from God. If I were in the business of “judging” other people’s Christian commitment (which I’m not), I would look at whether they exhibit the Fruit of the Spirit rather than a spiritual gift.

I don’t consider tongues a litmus test for anything. It is a gift.

I find it odd that you would think I would not know that many Pentecostals do not speak in tongues. I know that. The problem is that most non-Pentecostals are not aware of that.

Can you tell me how your gift of speaking in tongues benefits you or your brothers and sisters in Christ and how would your gift compare to, lets say,working among prisoners or the poor in a big city. Do you attach any significance to the fact that Christians who speak in tongues are primarilly non Catholic and attached to a minority of the Pentecostal denominations? Is this gift being presented to this tiny minority for any reason you can think of? Do you enjoy a particular distinction among your fellow parishioners because of your gift? Is there anyone who is able to interpret your speech and make it somewhat meaningful for those present or are the uninterpreted words sufficient in this gift? Do you have any idea how this gift presented to you is intended to benefit you in your walk with Christ?
Do you…in your mind, as you speak in tongues,understand the words or are they in your mind, just as unintelligible as it is to your listeners? If the answer is that you, in your mind, understand what you are saying. Would it not be a gift to the listeners to explain to them what you mean by what you are saying? Do you have any idea why this gift would be given to you? I understand that there are a lot of questins here and I am only scratching the surface. You must understand that other readers will hve even more questions. My last question in this series is this…Are you aware that this gift that you say you have tends to make it sound as if you may think that you are a “special Christian” among your small gathering of believers who place a heavier significance on your “gift”?

 

[EIF5A]

Can you tell me how your gift of speaking in tongues benefits you or your brothers and sisters in Christ and how would your gift compare to, lets say,working among prisoners or the poor in a big city. Do you attach any significance to the fact that Christians who speak in tongues are primarilly non Catholic and attached to a minority of the Pentecostal denominations? Is this gift being presented to this tiny minority for any reason you can think of? Do you enjoy a particular distinction among your fellow parishioners because of your gift? Is there anyone who is able to interpret your speech and make it somewhat meaningful for those present or are the uninterpreted words sufficient in this gift? Do you have any idea how this gift presented to you is intended to benefit you in your walk with Christ?
Do you…in your mind, as you speak in tongues,understand the words or are they in your mind, just as unintelligible as it is to your listeners? If the answer is that you, in your mind, understand what you are saying. Would it not be a gift to the listeners to explain to them what you mean by what you are saying? Do you have any idea why this gift would be given to you? I understand that there are a lot of questins here and I am only scratching the surface. You must understand that other readers will hve even more questions. My last question in this series is this…Are you aware that this gift that you say you have tends to make it sound as if you may think that you are a “special Christian” among your small gathering of believers who place a heavier significance on your “gift”?

What a response dripping with condescension!

 

[ltwin]

Itwin:

What do you think of the Montanist movement of the 2nd century of which Tertullian became a member?

I’ve read of it being compared to Pentacostalism. Could you express the similarities/differences?

There are some similarities. First, the belief on prophecy. Second, both movements can claim their fair share of religious ecstasy. Third, both movements tended toward apocalyptic expectation. Fourth, women played an important role (some of the leading Montanist prophets were women and Montanists also ordained female presbyters). Fifth, both movements were a serious challenge to the traditional churches.

There are also important differences. First, classical Pentecostalism has never emphasized prophecy to the degree that Montanism did. Pentecostalism emerged in the early 20th century around faith healing and baptism in the Holy Spirit (with speaking in tongues as its most distinctive feature). There have been movements that grew out of classical Pentecostalism that have emphasized prophecy, such as the Latter Rain Movement of the 1940s and the contemporary New Apostolic Reformation. Second, Montanism existed at a time when the canon was in the process of being formalized. Pentecostalism, on the other hand, emerged as a Protestant sect committed to the Primacy of Scripture.

Would you consider Montanism heresy?

It’s hard to say. First, we need to remember that our knowledge of Montanism is limited. The only information we have from an actual Montanist is from Tertullian. The rest comes to us from the anti-Montanists. It would be as if a thousand years from now the only information we had about Catholicism was a couple articles from Catholic Answers and everything else was written by raving anti-Catholic Fundamentalist Protestant Christians. For example, when the anti-Montanist writers attempt to discredit Montantist prophetesses by claiming that they dressed like prostitutes, we need to recognize this for what it is—character assassination.

On the other hand, if we can trust what the anti-Montanist writers tell us about Montanists believing that their prophecies superseded the teaching of the Apostles, then there is definitely cause for concern. At this point, however, it is difficult to determine what exactly Montanism comprised theologically.

 

[MartinJordan]

And you are welcome to your opinion. I see the matter the differently.

The trouble Itwin with this type of opinion (and I want to say you are are a good guy and sincere and please don’t take it personally) is earlier you said

*However, if theological integrity is to be maintained, it is sometimes necessary to leave bodies that have failed to protect the gospel.
*

Then you say :

• I see the matter the differently.*

The first one seems to be Theological doctrinal authoritative statement by you and the 2nd you see matters differently.

One is against a church system and the 2nd you depend on your own view and say it isn’t an issue and that Gospel must be spread. But the Gospels are not in “one
spirit” Theologically speaking, right?

You did mention fruit of the Holy Spirit. So how can it be **that **One Spirit?

I mean you don’t see things as a problem as long as the Gospel is spread. It doesn’t make sense to me.

MJ

 

[ltwin]

if he isn’t listing them in order of importance, then why does he say First are Apostles? And how do you determine which are the greater gifts?

I don’t try to determine which are first.

 

[ltwin]

Can you tell me how your gift of speaking in tongues benefits you or your brothers and sisters in Christ and how would your gift compare to, lets say,working among prisoners or the poor in a big city.

Since you have had some experience within Pentecostal congregations, I am sure you are aware of the distinction between a “prayer language” and a “message in tongues.” I have never given a message in tongues, so my prayer language has never benefited anyone but myself. It is a form of prayer like any other form of prayer. It is between me and God.

Do you attach any significance to the fact that Christians who speak in tongues are primarilly non Catholic and attached to a minority of the Pentecostal denominations?

It’s not a minority of Pentecostal denominations. Pentecostalism, Charismatic Christianity, and other related movements that emphasize the charismata are the fastest growing form of Christianity. Pentecostals and Charismatics together make up 500 million Christians, or a quarter of all Christians throughout the world. That’s not a “tiny minority” by any stretch of the imagination.

Is this gift being presented to this tiny minority for any reason you can think of? Do you enjoy a particular distinction among your fellow parishioners because of your gift?

No. Think about what you are asking here, OK? You are asking me if I would feel any “particular distinction” for speaking in tongues in a Pentecostal church . . . . .

Is there anyone who is able to interpret your speech and make it somewhat meaningful for those present or are the uninterpreted words sufficient in this gift?

I don’t speak in tongues to anyone in tongues but God. I’ve never given a message in tongues.

Do you have any idea how this gift presented to you is intended to benefit you in your walk with Christ?

It is a form of communication with God. It is prayer, thanksgiving, singing, and praise (1 Cor. 14:13-17). I suppose it will aid me in that part of my walk with Christ.

Do you…in your mind, as you speak in tongues,understand the words or are they in your mind, just as unintelligible as it is to your listeners?

I don’t understand what I am saying. Once again, no one listens to me because I’ve never spoken in tongues to someone before.

If the answer is that you, in your mind, understand what you are saying. Would it not be a gift to the listeners to explain to them what you mean by what you are saying?

This is why God gave us the gift of interpretation, so that we might “interpret” our messages in tongues. Once again, I’ve never given a message in tongues.

Do you have any idea why this gift would be given to you?

All gifts are for our benefit and the edification of the church. Prayer in the spirit aids me in my prayer life, so it is a good and needed gift indeed.

Are you aware that this gift that you say you have tends to make it sound as if you may think that you are a “special Christian” among your small gathering of believers who place a heavier significance on your “gift”?

I can’t help how people feel. As far as I’m aware, on this forum I have said nothing that would lead anyone to believe that I believe I am special because I have this gift. Pentecostals believe that all Christians have the potential to speak in tongues with the filling of the Spirit, so there is no reason for anyone to feel special for speaking in tongues.

 

[ltwin]

The trouble Itwin with this type of opinion (and I want to say you are are a good guy and sincere and please don’t take it personally) is earlier you said

*However, if theological integrity is to be maintained, it is sometimes necessary to leave bodies that have failed to protect the gospel.
*

Then you say :

• I see the matter the differently.*

The first one seems to be Theological doctrinal authoritative statement by you and the 2nd you see matters differently.

One is against a church system and the 2nd you depend on your own view and say it isn’t an issue and that Gospel must be spread. But the Gospels are not in “one
spirit” Theologically speaking, right?

You did mention fruit of the Holy Spirit. So how can it be **that **One Spirit?

I mean you don’t see things as a problem as long as the Gospel is spread. It doesn’t make sense to me.

MJ

I think anytime there is division in the body of Christ it is a sad thing. However, I don’t think that we need institutional unity to have doctrinal unity. At the same time, some Christians are in institutional unity when there is no doctrinal unity, which makes no sense to me.

The matter that I disagreed with was this statement:

“IMO, these men that started their own churches were lead away be evil (satan) as to cause division among the CC.”

I don’t believe Martin Luther or Calvin or John Wesley were lead away from their former churches by satan .

 

[MartinJordan]

I think anytime there is division in the body of Christ it is a sad thing.

Yes. It is sad. But it goes much deeper than that doesn’t it? How does one know a division has started? Who decides? Maybe to those who the Spirit is sent perhaps? So historically, scripturally in particular and New Testament wise who where they?

However, I don’t think that we need institutional unity to have doctrinal unity. At the same time, some Christians are in institutional unity when there is no doctrinal unity, which makes no sense to me.

Can you give me examples of names of those Institutions? Im sure they are unlikely Apostolic hierarchy. Infact you’ll find more of these institutions from 1600 onwards only.

The matter that I disagreed with was this statement:

“IMO, these men that started their own churches were lead away be evil (satan) as to cause division among the CC.”

I don’t believe Martin Luther or Calvin or John Wesley were lead away from their former churches by satan .

No of course not. I would put it as disobedience.

I don’t see why you need to go to ML or C or JW to (pardon my poor attempt at diplomacy) to reduce the importance of Christian Unity; “be of one mind, one spirit”.

MJ

 

[ltwin]

Yes. It is sad. But it goes much deeper than that doesn’t it? How does one know a division has started? Who decides? Maybe to those who the Spirit is sent perhaps? So historically, scripturally in particular and New Testament wise who where they?

A division has started when people are divided!

 

[MartinJordan]

A division has started when people are divided!

But Itwin, wasn’t it Authority that decided people are divided and then made a statement to correct the disunity? Some Christian Jews were asking that Gentiles must be circumcised?

Don’t forget (which Im sure you haven’t;just saying)

1 Corinthians 1:10: I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

MJ

 

[grannymh]

Can you tell me how your gift of speaking in tongues benefits you or your brothers and sisters in Christ and how would your gift compare to, lets say,working among prisoners or the poor in a big city. Do you attach any significance to the fact that Christians who speak in tongues are primarilly non Catholic and attached to a minority of the Pentecostal denominations? Is this gift being presented to this tiny minority for any reason you can think of? Do you enjoy a particular distinction among your fellow parishioners because of your gift? Is there anyone who is able to interpret your speech and make it somewhat meaningful for those present or are the uninterpreted words sufficient in this gift? Do you have any idea how this gift presented to you is intended to benefit you in your walk with Christ?
Do you…in your mind, as you speak in tongues,understand the words or are they in your mind, just as unintelligible as it is to your listeners? If the answer is that you, in your mind, understand what you are saying. Would it not be a gift to the listeners to explain to them what you mean by what you are saying? Do you have any idea why this gift would be given to you? I understand that there are a lot of questins here and I am only scratching the surface. You must understand that other readers will hve even more questions. My last question in this series is this…Are you aware that this gift that you say you have tends to make it sound as if you may think that you are a “special Christian” among your small gathering of believers who place a heavier significance on your “gift”?

As a Catholic charismatic, I have consistently pointed out in this thread that according to St. Paul, 1 Corinthians, chapters 12 and 14, there are two, totally distinct Holy Spirit gifts which use tongues.

Once we can recognize and understand the difference between these two gifts, many of your questions will automatically be answered. St. Paul is St. Paul no matter who reads his teachings.

 

[pismopal]

Since you have had some experience within Pentecostal congregations, I am sure you are aware of the distinction between a “prayer language” and a “message in tongues.” I have never given a message in tongues, so my prayer language has never benefited anyone but myself. It is a form of prayer like any other form of prayer. It is between me and God.

It’s not a minority of Pentecostal denominations. Pentecostalism, Charismatic Christianity, and other related movements that emphasize the charismata are the fastest growing form of Christianity. Pentecostals and Charismatics together make up 500 million Christians, or a quarter of all Christians throughout the world. That’s not a “tiny minority” by any stretch of the imagination.

No. Think about what you are asking here, OK? You are asking me if I would feel any “particular distinction” for speaking in tongues in a Pentecostal church . . . . .

I don’t speak in tongues to anyone in tongues but God. I’ve never given a message in tongues.

It is a form of communication with God. It is prayer, thanksgiving, singing, and praise (1 Cor. 14:13-17). I suppose it will aid me in that part of my walk with Christ.

I don’t understand what I am saying. Once again, no one listens to me because I’ve never spoken in tongues to someone before.

This is why God gave us the gift of interpretation, so that we might “interpret” our messages in tongues. Once again, I’ve never given a message in tongues.

All gifts are for our benefit and the edification of the church. Prayer in the spirit aids me in my prayer life, so it is a good and needed gift indeed.

I can’t help how people feel. As far as I’m aware, on this forum I have said nothing that would lead anyone to believe that I believe I am special because I have this gift. Pentecostals believe that all Christians have the potential to speak in tongues with the filling of the Spirit, so there is no reason for anyone to feel special for speaking in tongues.

My questions were sincere and posed as an investigative reporter might ask them. Sometimes questions…good, bad,etc. seem rude. They were not intended to be but whatever, you answered them and it seems to me,honestly. I have not changed my mind about the particular subject but in my opinion you are sincere…for whatever my opinion is worth. Thanks

 

[pismopal]

What a response dripping with condescension!

I thought we were adults on this forum and could ask hard questions without sending someone to the ladies room sobbing. If you want to hold up a number card rating the sincerity or value of the questions posed by posters that is fine with me but I assure you that it will not send me to the ladies room and I fail to see the value.