Ask a pentecostal.

[Jon_S_1]

I believe that baptism is a God-ordained expression of faith in Christ, our dying and our rising to life in Christ. I also believe that it is part of the process of becoming a disciple; Jesus said in Matthew 28, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Baptism is part of becoming a disciple.

Now, I don’t believe that it is baptism itself that saves or makes someone a Christian. There must already be an inner work, an inner identification and appropriation of Christ’s death and resurrection on the part of the baptized for their to be any benefit to baptism. However, some have taken this to mean that baptism is not important or something that you don’t really have to do if you don’t want to. I’ve never understood this.

The biblical pattern is repent, be baptized, and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Pentecostals ensure that everyone in our churches is born again, baptized, and filled with the Spirit as soon as possible after being drawn to Christ all of these questions become moot points.

Thank you!

 

[ltwin]

Wait a minute? You have an altar in your church? I keep learning more and more!

We have a table on which communion is offered. In our old building, the communion table had the words, “Do this in remembrance of me” carved into it. When not having communion, we put a nice Bible and a flower display on it. This table stood at the center of the platform. On each side of the platform, there are altar rails which run along the platform. This is where people can come to pray during the service if they feel led. We have altar workers to pray with them.

In our new building, we have a nondescript table on the platform. No altar rails. However, like other evangelical/Pentecostal churches, we label the front of the church and the platform steps where people come up to pray as the altar area.

 

[KingJohn]

Well to be honest it disappoints me that you put faith in men of the 20th century and not the Apostles…even Polycarp who Ignatius wrote to is in the Bible. I suppose you reject all Christian teaching prior to the reformation. I won’t ever understand that. I suppose if you or your pastors are prophets like suppossedly Joseph Smith and you believe Christians were in error until your pastor rediscovered the truth, then I guess you can hold that position, but I hope you see how much faith you are putting in men.

Are we supposed to “follow” Jesus? Are we supposed to emulate his example as best we can, even to the point of “taking up our cross to follow him”?

If so, then shouldn’t we follow God incarnates example in baptism?

The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”

15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Note Jesus is the one who sends in this verse:

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said to me, On whom you shall see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizes with the Holy Ghost.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 is problematic. I would explain but it’d be more simple if I didn’t.

gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html

 

[Jon_S_1]

We have a table on which communion is offered. In our old building, the communion table had the words, “Do this in remembrance of me” carved into it. When not having communion, we put a nice Bible and a flower display on it. This table stood at the center of the platform. On each side of the platform, there are altar rails which run along the platform. This is where people can come to pray during the service if they feel led. We have altar workers to pray with them.

In our new building, we have nondescript table on the platform. No altar rails. However, like other evangelical/Pentecostal churches, we label the front of the church and the platform steps where people come up to pray as the altar area.

Interesting. It sounds like Assembly of God churches rightly retain some liturgy and sacramentality that is lost in so many evangelical churches.

 

[Jon_S_1]

John 3:5 is problematic. I would explain but it’d be more simple if I didn’t.

gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html

From that link: "

Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand."

WRONG. That is reading into the text. That is basically saying, “yeah it seems so clear, but we don’t believe it, so lets do linguistic gymnastics and ignore history, and perhaps we can make it too complicated for most people to dispute.”

Do you find the Great Commision Problematic too?

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matt 28 :19-20

It sounds like you find a tremendous amount of scripture “problematic” I hope this raises a red flag for you.

 

[ltwin]

Interesting. It sounds like Assembly of God churches rightly retain some liturgy and sacramentality that is lost in so many evangelical churches.

I’m not AG. I commonly cite AG doctrinal statements or publications because there is a lot of AG material that is online. It’s handy to have since the AG and groups like the Church of God represent “mainstream” Pentecostalism.

And, as far as I’m aware, Baptists and other evangelicals retain the same use of “altar” and the use of a communion table as Pentecostals do.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’m not AG. I commonly cite AG doctrinal statements or publications because there is a lot of AG material that is online. It’s handy to have since the AG and groups like the Church of God represent “mainstream” Pentecostalism.

And, as far as I’m aware, Baptists and other evangelicals retain the same use of “altar” and the use of a communion table as Pentecostals do.

The many I have been to dont, they usually just bring a table in for the quarterly communion.

Thanks for the info!

 

[ltwin]

The many I have been to dont, they usually just bring a table in for the quarterly communion.

Thanks for the info!

This probably has a lot to do with churches newly built or remodeled. The trend is to get rid of altar rails and not to have a communion table always present on the platform. However, they still call the front of the church between the platform and the pews the “altar.” There is a whole thread on altar calls.

 

[KingJohn]

From that link: "

Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand."

WRONG. That is reading into the text. That is basically saying, “yeah it seems so clear, but we don’t believe it, so lets do linguistic gymnastics and ignore history, and perhaps we can make it too complicated for most people to dispute.”

Do you find the Great Commision Problematic too?

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matt 28 :19-20

It sounds like you find a tremendous amount of scripture “problematic” I hope this raises a red flag for you.

I find scriptures that SEEM to contradict what Jesus said problematic, so I discern them since nothing Jesus has said or says can be contradicted.

 

[KingJohn]

I believe that baptism is a God-ordained expression of faith in Christ, our dying and our rising to life in Christ. I also believe that it is part of the process of becoming a disciple; Jesus said in Matthew 28, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Baptism is part of becoming a disciple.

Now, I don’t believe that it is baptism itself that saves or makes someone a Christian. There must already be an inner work, an inner identification and appropriation of Christ’s death and resurrection on the part of the baptized for their to be any benefit to baptism. However, some have taken this to mean that baptism is not important or something that you don’t really have to do if you don’t want to. I’ve never understood this.

The biblical pattern is repent, be baptized, and then receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If Pentecostals ensure that everyone in our churches is born again, baptized, and filled with the Spirit as soon as possible after being drawn to Christ all of these questions become moot points.

I don’t understand. If someone is not baptized, yet they have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is lord and have accepted them, are they damned?

 

[Jon_S_1]

This probably has a lot to do with churches newly built or remodeled. The trend is to get rid of altar rails and not to have a communion table always present on the platform.

I was thinking the same thing. I haven’t been to an old whitewashed with steeple baptist church. The ones I have been to were either built in the last 30-50 years as churches or are converted warehouse/industrial buildings. Now a lot of the new churches are even built in this tilt up style…:crying:

 

[Jon_S_1]

I find scriptures that SEEM to contradict what Jesus said problematic, so I discern them since nothing Jesus has said or says can be contradicted.

Yet Matt 28 is Jesus’ words

 

[Jon_S_1]

I find scriptures that SEEM to contradict what Jesus said problematic, so I discern them since nothing Jesus has said or says can be contradicted.

Yet Jesus first thing at the start of his ministry went and got baptized.

 

[pablope]

I’m sorry, but I do not agree when the Apostles of your Church say Baptism is required for salvation.

It’s important, yes. But I simply do not agree. I’ve laid the Pentecostal poistion on Salvation out, you’ve laid your poistion in the word of man out. Unless you have Jesus himself saying in the Bible that Baptism is a 100% necessity to getting into his kingdom, then I do not believe it’s a 100% necessity.

Well…this begs the question…are you the authority to decide on what is required and what is not required for salvation?

Unless you have Jesus himself saying in the Bible that Baptism is a 100% necessity to getting into his kingdom, then I do not believe it’s a 100% necessity.

Can you provide the chapter and verse where this is stated in the Bible? Unless there is…then this seems to be another doctrine of man you follow…this is a man’s declaration.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I don’t understand. If someone is not baptized, yet they have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is lord and have accepted them, are they damned?

The Bible says you must put faith and believe in Jesus to be saved. It says you must give up everything to follow him. You must do whatever it takes! A simple lip service is not enough. Even the demons believe in Jesus,

Matt 7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[ltwin]

I don’t understand. If someone is not baptized, yet they have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is lord and have accepted them, are they damned?

No. But let me ask you one question. What reason is there for any Christian to disobey Jesus? He said to baptize and teach all people. Acts says to repent (conversion), be baptize, and then be filled with the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals claim to go by the book; however, many of us are not intentional about following this command of Jesus. This makes us look stupid when we tell other people to follow the Bible. All they have to do is ask, “Are you baptized, are new converts at your church baptized, and if not, then how are you following the Bible?”

My point is that we (I mean Pentecostals and evangelicals generally) need to stop focusing on what baptism is not and why we don’t need to do it and start focusing on what baptism is and why we as Pentecostals need to urgently call all Christians to the waters of baptism.

This has been done by Pentecostals, such as M. Wayne Benson in his short article “The Urgency of Water Baptism.” Among other things, he writes that:

We have discovered the newly baptized believer is open and hungry for the power of the Holy Spirit. For this reason, we encourage each candidate desirous of the Spirit-energized life to join the elders in the prayer chapel, immediately after water baptism. Approximately 90 percent of these freshly baptized seekers are almost immediately baptized in the Holy Spirit. This parallels the pattern given in Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:38,39.

Every unbaptized Christian should notice the attitude of Jesus when He subjected himself to baptism by John, not because He needed repentance, but as He said to John, “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Jesus became an example when He surrendered himself to be baptized by John.

Every new person who is saved has the right to be baptized in water and needs to be baptized as soon as possible. Why jeopardize a new Christian’s spiritual security and development? He needs the strengthening benefits of baptism so he may “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18). Let us communicate with passion the urgency of being baptized. Let us teach believers and lead them into all the means of grace provided for them by our wonderful Christ and Lord.​

 

[Jon_S_1]

No. But let me ask you one question. What reason is there for any Christian to disobey Jesus? He said to baptize and teach all people. Acts says to repent (conversion), be baptize, and then be filled with the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals claim to go by the book; however, many of us are not intentional about following this command of Jesus. This makes us look stupid when we tell other people to follow the Bible. All they have to do is ask, “Are you baptized, are new converts at your church baptized, and if not, then how are you following the Bible?”

My point is that we (I mean Pentecostals and evangelicals generally) need to stop focusing on what baptism is not and why we don’t need to do it and start focusing on what baptism is and why we as Pentecostals need to urgently call all Christians to the waters of baptism.

This has been done by Pentecostals, such as M. Wayne Benson in his short article “The Urgency of Water Baptism.” Among other things, he writes that:

We have discovered the newly baptized believer is open and hungry for the power of the Holy Spirit. For this reason, we encourage each candidate desirous of the Spirit-energized life to join the elders in the prayer chapel, immediately after water baptism. Approximately 90 percent of these freshly baptized seekers are almost immediately baptized in the Holy Spirit. This parallels the pattern given in Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:38,39.

Every unbaptized Christian should notice the attitude of Jesus when He subjected himself to baptism by John, not because He needed repentance, but as He said to John, “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Jesus became an example when He surrendered himself to be baptized by John.

Every new person who is saved has the right to be baptized in water and needs to be baptized as soon as possible. Why jeopardize a new Christian’s spiritual security and development? He needs the strengthening benefits of baptism so he may “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18). Let us communicate with passion the urgency of being baptized. Let us teach believers and lead them into all the means of grace provided for them by our wonderful Christ and Lord.​

Although falling a bit short of catholic teaching… As it pertains to this thread can I just say…:extrahappy::extrahappy::extrahappy::extrahappy::dancing::dancing::dancing:

 

[KingJohn]

No. But let me ask you one question. What reason is there for any Christian to disobey Jesus? He said to baptize and teach all people. Acts says to repent (conversion), be baptize, and then be filled with the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals claim to go by the book; however, many of us are not intentional about following this command of Jesus. This makes us look stupid when we tell other people to follow the Bible. All they have to do is ask, “Are you baptized, are new converts at your church baptized, and if not, then how are you following the Bible?”

My point is that we (I mean Pentecostals and evangelicals generally) need to stop focusing on what baptism is not and why we don’t need to do it and start focusing on what baptism is and why we as Pentecostals need to urgently call all Christians to the waters of baptism.

This has been done by Pentecostals, such as M. Wayne Benson in his short article “The Urgency of Water Baptism.” Among other things, he writes that:

We have discovered the newly baptized believer is open and hungry for the power of the Holy Spirit. For this reason, we encourage each candidate desirous of the Spirit-energized life to join the elders in the prayer chapel, immediately after water baptism. Approximately 90 percent of these freshly baptized seekers are almost immediately baptized in the Holy Spirit. This parallels the pattern given in Peter’s sermon in Acts 2:38,39.

Every unbaptized Christian should notice the attitude of Jesus when He subjected himself to baptism by John, not because He needed repentance, but as He said to John, “It is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Jesus became an example when He surrendered himself to be baptized by John.

Every new person who is saved has the right to be baptized in water and needs to be baptized as soon as possible. Why jeopardize a new Christian’s spiritual security and development? He needs the strengthening benefits of baptism so he may “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 3:18). Let us communicate with passion the urgency of being baptized. Let us teach believers and lead them into all the means of grace provided for them by our wonderful Christ and Lord.​

Finally I get an answer from a credible source. Thank you.

 

[KingJohn]

Finally I get an answer from a credible source. Thank you.

Hopefully this argument will stop so people can finally ask questions.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Finally I get an answer from a credible source. Thank you.

Lol. I’ve been trying to share those verses with you over and over. I guess it helps coming from a Protestant huh?