Ask a Unitarian Universalist

[PRmerger]

If I correct the argument to remove ‘probably’, and to clarify that by ‘non-Christians in heaven’ I mean to say people who were non-Christians until they went to heaven, do you accept the conclusion that this hypothetical saintly atheist is possible?

I will take the atheistic paradigm here and say: I won’t believe in his fabled existence until I have proof that he exists. Please provide the evidence that there is an atheistic equivalent of Maximilian Kolbe.

Someone who has stepped up to volunteer his/her life for a complete stranger, out of agape-ic love for this stranger, knowing that he/she would die a slow, tortured, horrific death, and die with a smile on his/her face.

 

[PRmerger]

Somehow my previous reply got eaten.

In any event, what I was trying to say was the Catholic church supports the possibility (and the probability which you disputed) of non-Christians going to heaven (whereupon they would learn the full truth and become Catholics).

What you said was that Church doctrine does not support my view. (Or, at least, that you doubted that this was consonant with Church teaching.)

So if you could proffer some Church doctrine which states that you do not need to be a Christian in order to be a saint, that would be helpful.

I doubt that Catholic doctrine supports this view.

 

[mafh]

I will take the atheistic paradigm here and say: I won’t believe in his fabled existence until I have proof that he exists. Please provide the evidence that there is an atheistic equivalent of Maximilian Kolbe.

Someone who has stepped up to volunteer his/her life for a complete stranger, out of agape-ic love for this stranger, knowing that he/she would die a slow, tortured, horrific death, and die with a smile on his/her face.

I’ve never heard of this guy before, so I’m unable to comment on him.

 

[mafh]

What you said was that Church doctrine does not support my view. (Or, at least, that you doubted that this was consonant with Church teaching.)

So if you could proffer some Church doctrine which states that you do not need to be a Christian in order to be a saint, that would be helpful.

How about this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=38939&highlight=non+Christian+saints

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve never heard of this guy before, so I’m unable to comment on him.

Are you an atheist, mafh?

 

[PRmerger]

How about this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=143

That says nothing at all about the possibility of saints in heaven being atheists. Rather, it affirms what I have stated which is: if you are a saint in heaven, it is only through the Catholic Church

Would you be happier if we removed the word ‘saint’ from the argument, and substituted instead ‘people in heaven’?

I would rather you rescinded your comment that what I have proposed is contrary to the teaching of the Church.

 

[mafh]

Are you an atheist, mafh?

See:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10905049#post10905049

I don’t particularly like the term ‘atheist’, and I don’t really want to talk about it.

First of all, discussion of atheism is forbidden on these forums, and I don’t want to get banned or something. I feel that this thread is already moving dangerously close to talking about atheism, and I think it should move back to talking more about UU.

Secondly, some people get really really nasty when you tell them that you are an atheist. I’ve read a few disheartening messages on these forums where people say all kinds of awful things. It almost makes you want to lie and put down something more socially acceptable in your profile under ‘religion’. So, I hedged with ‘none’, I guess. One of the reasons for an atheist to join UU is that if you tell people you are a UU, they respond much much more favorably than if you tell them you are an atheist.

Finally, I’m not on these boards to promote atheism. I’m here to learn about Catholicism and to have interesting discussions about religion generally. One thing that I think I do well is to understand other group’s philosophical and theological positions. Then, when, say, some member of another religious group says something like ‘Catholics are just completely crazy for believing xyz’, I can explain to them why Catholicism believes this and that, how it follows from Catholic theology, and because I’m a non-believer myself, I can make it understandable to other non-believers because I come from the same perspective as they do. I think I am good at facilitating inter-religious dialogue. So, basically what I do on these boards is to absorb all that I can about Catholic theology, and apologist’s answers to different questions. Then, I suppose when I see someone say something that I think contradicts something I think I have learned on this board, then I try to restate what I believe to be the actual Catholic argument. I still think Catholic theology supports my position on the saint, but you have to understand that for me this is an academic question.

I started posting on this topic because I did the same absorption thing with respect to UU, due to being a member for a time. So, I guess I felt compelled to talk about it on this forum.

Anyway, let’s get back to talking about UU.

 

[VanSensei]

Do many people convert to the faith like with Jehovah’s Witnesses or are they often born into it like with LDS?

 

[mafh]

I would rather you rescinded your comment that what I have proposed is contrary to the teaching of the Church.

I see. I certainly did not mean to suggest that you were anything but an orthodox Catholic, and I sincerely apologize if you took my comments personally. I regret that first line, which was meant slightly playfully, but I see now that you have taken it really to heart. I really didn’t mean to cause you any pain or even to get into a big argument about this. As the matter is entirely academic to me anyway, can we just move on and talk about something else? I truly meant no offense, and I said in my previous post, I was just trying to restate what I thought I had already learned on this board. Anyway, please accept my apology. It’s entirely possible that I am wrong in my understanding – I wish I could get clarification from an expert like a priest.

 

[Boulder257]

See:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10905049#post10905049

Secondly, some people get really really nasty when you tell them that you are an atheist. I’ve read a few disheartening messages on these forums where people say all kinds of awful things. It almost makes you want to lie and put down something more socially acceptable in your profile under ‘religion’. So, I hedged with ‘none’, I guess. One of the reasons for an atheist to join UU is that if you tell people you are a UU, they respond much much more favorably than if you tell them you are an atheist.

Let me say that I am sorry if anyone treated you or anyone else rudely because that person did not share a certain religious belief. That is not what this website is about, especially this particular forum. You are always welcome to have your view and to share it, so long as it is done charitably. You definitely should not have to lie to avoid uncharitable behavior. If someone deals uncharitably with you I would recommend you report them for such behavior. The mods are very good at stopping that kind of activity.

 

[Boulder257]

I see. I certainly did not mean to suggest that you were anything but an orthodox Catholic, and I sincerely apologize if you took my comments personally. I regret that first line, which was meant slightly playfully, but I see now that you have taken it really to heart. I really didn’t mean to cause you any pain or even to get into a big argument about this. As the matter is entirely academic to me anyway, can we just move on and talk about something else? I truly meant no offense, and I said in my previous post, I was just trying to restate what I thought I had already learned on this board. Anyway, please accept my apology. It’s entirely possible that I am wrong in my understanding --** I wish I could get clarification from an expert like a priest**.

You can. Schedule an appointment with a priest near you. I am sure they would be happy to discuss with you.

 

[LisaA]

Yes.

And Catholics were at the forefront.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...ZSIbzdncDmVpU9scnf6Q1GbfgdVb9SJm0IcpMjN22W3Wg

All of this the fruit of the Judeo-Christian ethos that we are made in the image and likeness of God.

Wonderful image! Thank you for posting this picture. It is hard to believe that life was so different then.

Lisa

 

[PRmerger]

I see. I certainly did not mean to suggest that you were anything but an orthodox Catholic, and I sincerely apologize if you took my comments personally. I regret that first line, which was meant slightly playfully, but I see now that you have taken it really to heart. I really didn’t mean to cause you any pain or even to get into a big argument about this. As the matter is entirely academic to me anyway, can we just move on and talk about something else? I truly meant no offense, and I said in my previous post, I was just trying to restate what I thought I had already learned on this board. Anyway, please accept my apology. It’s entirely possible that I am wrong in my understanding – I wish I could get clarification from an expert like a priest.

I have no emotion attached to your response whatsoever, mafh.

I only want it clarified that what you have said is wrong. You are not familiar with Catholic doctrine, as you have acknowledged, and it is incorrect for you to say that I have made any claim that is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t particularly like the term ‘atheist’, and I don’t really want to talk about it.

Fair enough.

First of all, discussion of atheism is forbidden on these forums, and I don’t want to get banned or something.

I will tell you that no one is ever banned for stating that she is an atheist.

That’s all I was asking–“are you an atheist.”

Secondly, some people get really really nasty when you tell them that you are an atheist. I’ve read a few disheartening messages on these forums where people say all kinds of awful things. It almost makes you want to lie and put down something more socially acceptable in your profile under 'religion

It’s a shame that there are indeed folks on the CAFs who react so negatively to a person simply because she describes herself as an atheist.

 

[Jcc1960]

Greetings everyone!

With all this talk about atheists, it is easy to forget that they are humans first. Not all are the same or have the same reasons for believing as they do.

You need to ask what is is about God that they can’t believe in. you may hear the response “I can’t believe in a God that would cause so much suffering in the world”, or “allow so many religions when the followers of all but one are doomed” or " give us the ability to think but then have us follow a religion blindly"

To which I would respond “the God you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in that one either”

 

[LisaA]

Greetings everyone!

With all this talk about atheists, it is easy to forget that they are humans first. Not all are the same or have the same reasons for believing as they do.

You need to ask what is is about God that they can’t believe in. you may hear the response “I can’t believe in a God that would cause so much suffering in the world”, or “allow so many religions when the followers of all but one are doomed” or " give us the ability to think but then have us follow a religion blindly"

To which I would respond “the God you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in that one either”

So you have been at a lecture by Dr Marcus Borg? He uses that approach and I find it quite persuasive. As with the Catholic Church, what many non believers “believe” about God is quite astonishing! Once you tell them you don’t believe in the bearded flamethrower god, they do listen.

As to atheists, or agnostics, I have no hard feelings about them, I used to be one. I am happy to share my faith and what it has done for my life. I think they are wrong and I wish they would reconsider. But no hate mail from me

Lisa

 

[Jcc1960]

So you have been at a lecture by Dr Marcus Borg? He uses that approach and I find it quite persuasive. As with the Catholic Church, what many non believers “believe” about God is quite astonishing! Once you tell them you don’t believe in the bearded flamethrower god, they do listen.

As to atheists, or agnostics, I have no hard feelings about them, I used to be one. I am happy to share my faith and what it has done for my life. I think they are wrong and I wish they would reconsider. But no hate mail from me

Lisa

I have not been to a lecture by Marcus Borg, but neither do I claim originality…I heard it from somebody!

My faith in God is such that I don’t believe we can judge anyone, or know what is in their hearts. All of humanity belong to God, whether they know it or not.

 

[PRmerger]

If I correct the argument to remove ‘probably’, and to clarify that by ‘non-Christians in heaven’ I mean to say people who were non-Christians until they went to heaven, do you accept the conclusion that this hypothetical saintly atheist is possible?

I will take the atheistic paradigm here and say: I won’t believe in his fabled existence until I have proof that he exists. Please provide the evidence that there is an atheistic equivalent of Maximilian Kolbe.

I hope you see the irony in this, mafh.

You are a non-believer yet, curiously, are willing to believe in the existence of this phantom saintly atheist without a shred of evidence for his/her existence.

 

[PRmerger]

My faith in God is such that I don’t believe we can judge anyone, or know what is in their hearts. All of humanity belong to God, whether they know it or not.

This is very Catholic!

However, you are, of course, aware that while Catholic ought not conclude that they know what is in the hearts of men, they are indeed supposed to judge.

In fact, the Word of God commands us to judge, right?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m here to learn about Catholicism and to have interesting discussions about religion generally. One thing that I think I do well is to understand other group’s philosophical and theological positions.

I hope, then, that you will concede that you have been mistaken in what you have been positing is Catholic doctrine.

I would hate for you to go to other forums and declare, “But the Catholic Church has stated that there are atheists who can be saints!”

For this would be an incorrect explication of Catholic teaching.

That atheists may be saved is, indeed, part of Catholic teaching. But if they are saved it is only when they remain atheists no more and are joined to the Catholic Church, either implicitly or explicitly.