Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[yessisan]

I don’t “believe” (put faith), in “possessed souls” either. The soul is neutral & can not become “possessed” until after death, meaning: in the condition in which the soul departs the flesh, whether in the state of grace or in venial or mortal sin dictates who will “possess” (own) that soul for all eternity, heaven or hell.

A human body & even those of animals can become “possessed” or more to the point, under the control of the evil one. Usually 51% or more under diabolical influence. Jesus encounterd the Gadarene/Garasene demoniac(s) - Matt 8:28-34, Mk 5:1-17 & Lk 8:28-39. It was in fact the evil spirits in people that first recognized Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God before human beings did.

Does the evil one exsist? Do evil spirits? What do you think?
There are dozens of scripture references that suport the exsisence of the fallen angels/spirits of evil & how they are “hellbent” on or destruction.

You probably would never actually “see” an evil spirit, they are usually more subtle than that, unless you ask St. John Marie Vianney or St. Padre Pio, but they definately do exsist. Are we to fear them? No. Are we to respect the power God allows them to have? Yes, never challenge the devil or you could be in for a world of anguish.

Remember these scripture passages: "He summoned the Twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal (the sick)." Lk 9:1-2

"The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name.” Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning 8 from the sky. Behold, I have given you the power ‘to tread upon serpents’ and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven." Lk 10:17-20

**“17 **
These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak new languages. They will pick up serpents (with their hands), and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mk 16:17-18

& no, I don’t paly with serpents or scorpions, mostly because they give me the creeps.

I could share with you some of own experiences with the forces of the evil one, but they I wouldn’t want to scare you.

Oh, I know evil exists. What I was referring to is how some people claim to actually see them or how they “haunt” a house. Many Catholics I know believe that, and I don’t. Some people believe in the “evil eye” curse, I don’t. Some believe in magic, I don’t. Parapsychological things are just a joke to me, psychics, tarot cards, ouija board, people who can “communicate” with the dead… I personally think these people are charlatans. They only try to cheat people out of their money, HOWEVER, I do keep my distance from all of those things because I don’t want to be involved in any of it, especially because they are considered to be involved with the occult. I cannot explain the ouija board, I was dumb and young when I tried it, but I wasn’t sure if it moved on its own or if my friends moved it, I know that all I was thinking it was being spelled out, maybe it was me moving the thing… but that was stupid of me and I would never ever again touch that thing. I do keep myself away from the occult.

Now, that explained… I’m skeptical about many things since I haven’t experienced them but if I were to experience at all anything of the like of the charisms, well, I’m pretty sure I’d believe in that. I just want to make sure people don’t think I’m correlating charismatics w/the occult. Not at all. Please don’t see it that way, it’s not what I was trying to explain.

 

[RoyJr]

I don’t doubt the authenticity of the charisms.
This is what I don’t understand, I received the anointing of the Holy Spirit during confirmation through the laying down of hands. Gradually I have seen some of those gift manifested without going
through another ceremony.

You receive the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Sprirt (Isaiah 11) at confirmation. I explained before that the “ceremony” or “lay on of hands” has not changed in almost 2000 years, but the focus of which gifts to be given or in fact “stirred up” have changed. For the first 300 years, the church was SURPRISE SURPRISE a “charismatic” church (so for all who claim to be “traditional catholic” are not going back as far in tradition as they think). Some time after the Niocene council did the church began to focus on the gifts of Isaiah rather than those of 1 Corinthians 12. The “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is exactly what the first discilpes (& our blessed Mother Mary) experienced on the day of Pentecost. Through the “laying on of hands” the receipiant is annoited by the Spirit of God. Why do you need both, the sacrament & the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”? Mainly because it’s what God wants you to have, that your joy may be full. Remember Jesus spoke of more than one baptism Mk 10:38.

Why is it that many claim that those gifts are not active until someone other than the bishop lays their hands? I am all for praying for others for healing if you have the gift of healing and if someone falls because they are overwelmed by the Holy Spirit. I think this is wonderful too. But if you have received the gifts already at Confirmation why do you need to stir them up at the another ceremony?

Are you working in the charismatic gifts already? If not then you do need the “laying on of hands” by anyone that has been authentically annoited by the Holy Spirit. If you could find a bishop that is working in the charisms to lay hands on you for the annointing, than please let me know who he is. You could pray for them to be “awakened” in you by yourself, but Jesus said “when two or more are gathered in my name I am present”. You actually receive all gifts God wants you to have at the sacrament of Baptism, as the flame is ignited but the fire needs to be turned up.

As for laughter… Well I laugh all the time when something is funny, so you’re telling me this is a charism? I had been laughing before my confirmation (how can that be?).

All good things come from God. If your laughter is because of something funny (whatever it is), then that is human reacation. If the gift of joy has been poured out on you & your joy causes you to laugh, or cry, our experience peace, than that is the charism of the Holy Spirit. I have witnessed hundreds of people experience this joy over the years, & I pray for an renwed outpouring of Gods’ joy all the time. “Laughter is the best medicine”. Laughter can also be healing, if we are open to God’s gift.

I thought Issac was named laughter because Sarah doubted she was going to get pregnant.

My point was the meaning of the name & the blessing of the child as God promised, what Sarah was actually “feeling”, I have know idea.

I’m not trying to be difficult here, but I hope to get some insight.

I hope I helped.

 

[RoyJr]

Oh, I know evil exists. What I was referring to is how some people claim to actually see them or how they “haunt” a house. Many Catholics I know believe that, and I don’t. Some people believe in the “evil eye” curse, I don’t. Some believe in magic, I don’t. Parapsychological things are just a joke to me, psychics, tarot cards, ouija board, people who can “communicate” with the dead… I personally think these people are charlatans. They only try to cheat people out of their money, HOWEVER, I do keep my distance from all of those things because I don’t want to be involved in any of it, especially because they are considered to be involved with the occult. I cannot explain the ouija board, I was dumb and young when I tried it, but I wasn’t sure if it moved on its own or if my friends moved it, I know that all I was thinking it was being spelled out, maybe it was me moving the thing… but that was stupid of me and I would never ever again touch that thing. I do keep myself away from the occult.

Now, that explained… I’m skeptical about many things since I haven’t experienced them but if I were to experience at all anything of the like of the charisms, well, I’m pretty sure I’d believe in that. I just want to make sure people don’t think I’m correlating charismatics w/the occult. Not at all. Please don’t see it that way, it’s not what I was trying to explain.

I too had my experience with the occult. As I said I was “baptised in the Holy Spirit” at the age of 11, but as I became a teen I rebeled & did get involved in witchcraft & was a “self-professed” satanist at the age of 16. I was counseled my a priest that urged me to pray a Spiritual Warfare prayer as much as possible.

I came back to the church at age 18, & except for a few years back when I took a 2 year vacation from God (silly me, He wasn’t doing *my/] will ), I’ve been back in the swing of things. I attend daily mass (some times twice as Canon Law permits) & confess in the sacrament weekly.

No, I don’t think you’re trying to “stifle the Spirit” as some others are trying to do around here. You seem much more intellgent. *

 

[TOP]

"The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name.” Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning 8 from the sky. Behold, I have given you the power ‘to tread upon serpents’ and scorpions and upon the full force of the enemy and nothing will harm you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven." Lk 10:17-20

"17
These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will drive out demons, they will speak new languages. They will pick up serpents (with their hands), and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." Mk 16:17-18

I thought, by reading this interveiw from an exorcist, that serpents and scorpions where types of demons and that this power over them was for the ordained. Tim

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1260364/posts

 

[RoyJr]

I thought, by reading this interveiw from an exorcist, that serpents and scorpions where types of demons and that this power over them was for the ordained. Tim

freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1260364/posts

Was Jesus speaking metaphorically? maybe.
Priest that are appointed by their bishop as excorsist can only deal with the extreme case = possessions. Lay person CAN NOT perform formal excorsisms. Deliverance is something quite different.

 

[St_Gabriel]

You receive the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Sprirt (Isaiah 11) at confirmation. I explained before that the “ceremony” or “lay on of hands” has not changed in almost 2000 years, but the focus of which gifts to be given or in fact “stirred up” have changed. For the first 300 years, the church was SURPRISE SURPRISE a “charismatic” church (so for all who claim to be “traditional catholic” are not going back as far in tradition as they think). Some time after the Niocene council did the church began to focus on the gifts of Isaiah rather than those of 1 Corinthians 12. The “baptism in the Holy Spirit” is exactly what the first discilpes (& our blessed Mother Mary) experienced on the day of Pentecost. Through the “laying on of hands” the receipiant is annoited by the Spirit of God. Why do you need both, the sacrament & the “baptism of the Holy Spirit”? Mainly because it’s what God wants you to have, that your joy may be full. Remember Jesus spoke of more than one baptism Mk 10:38.

Are you working in the charismatic gifts already? If not then you do need the “laying on of hands” by anyone that has been authentically annoited by the Holy Spirit. If you could find a bishop that is working in the charisms to lay hands on you for the annointing, than please let me know who he is. You could pray for them to be “awakened” in you by yourself, but Jesus said “when two or more are gathered in my name I am present”. You actually receive all gifts God wants you to have at the sacrament of Baptism, as the flame is ignited but the fire needs to be turned up.

All good things come from God. If your laughter is because of something funny (whatever it is), then that is human reacation. If the gift of joy has been poured out on you & your joy causes you to laugh, or cry, our experience peace, than that is the charism of the Holy Spirit. I have witnessed hundreds of people experience this joy over the years, & I pray for an renwed outpouring of Gods’ joy all the time. “Laughter is the best medicine”. Laughter can also be healing, if we are open to God’s gift.

My point was the meaning of the name & the blessing of the child as God promised, what Sarah was actually “feeling”, I have know idea.

I hope I helped.

Thank you.

Sarah was pretty old to be expecting a child. It seemed pretty riddiculus and incredible. No wonder he was called, “Issac”.

 

[TOP]

Was Jesus speaking metaphorically? maybe.
Priest that are appointed by their bishop as excorsist can only deal with the extreme case = possessions. Lay person CAN NOT perform formal excorsisms. Deliverance is something quite different.

What is deliverance? I went through some serious spiritual combat. That was a way for the Lord to have me to submit to His will. Would this deliverance possibly hamper what the Lord wills in that sense? What the Lord was trying to break me of, was my pride when I received the Spirit. I thought I could do what the ordained are only to do. This is why I’m leary messing with this. I got beatup pretty bad, by my own doing. And I didn’t go farther then to read scripture to the afflicted. Get what I’m saying? Tim

 

[St_Gabriel]

Without proper spiritual direction, I’m afraid I would become a “clanging cymbol” or a " noisy gong". 1 Corinthians 13:1

 

[Mary_ann_R]

[SIGN]When we speak on the “charismatic movement” or “renewal” in the Church we must understand that it is The Holy Spirit who had this possible. I must agree with Fr. John Corapi who said (as heard on EWTN radio) that IF the Holy Catholic Church had remained charisamtic as it was founded as a Church it never would have needed a renewal, for we would all be working in the charisms of The Holy Spirit. [/SIGN]

Amen to that!!

 

[TOP]

Royjr, I’m interested in what you call deliverance. I have a loved one who is a former hells angel prospect (motorcycle club) and needs some help. I tried to be a source of help, but it is beyond me. It is not so recognisible as the Church would do anything about it. But I know in my gut something is not right. What is this “deliverance”? Tim

 

[Mary_ann_R]

Thank you for the link!

Pani Rose helped me immensely with this link. It has a wealth of information in it.

 

[RoyJr]

What is deliverance? I went through some serious spiritual combat. That was a way for the Lord to have me to submit to His will. Would this deliverance possibly hamper what the Lord wills in that sense? What the Lord was trying to break me of, was my pride when I received the Spirit. I thought I could do what the ordained are only to do. This is why I’m leary messing with this. I got beatup pretty bad, by my own doing. And I didn’t go farther then to read scripture to the afflicted. Get what I’m saying? Tim

Deliverance is simply (or not so at times) the Lord Jesus “delivering” or freeing us from the immediate grasp of the evil one. We (believe it or not) experience a ‘kind’ of deliverance when we receive absolution in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. A “deliverance” prayer is said during Mass at the penietential rite (Lord have mercy). The ‘Our Father’ prayer is also a deliverance prayer, “deliver us from evil”, originally “deliver us from the evil one”, which is where we get the word “deliverance”.

An excellent explanation of deliverance can be found in Fr. Robert DeGrandis’s book ‘Walking In The Light - A Catholic Guide to Spiritual Warfare’. Fr. Bobby (as we call him ) defines "deliverance as: "The freeing of a person from negative or evil spirits, in the name of Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit."

Did you attempt a “deliverance” on yourself or someone else alone? If you did & the person was under deep spiritual bondage then I can see where the “beating up” could take place. Same thing happened to a former associate pastor at my parish some years ago, he also told me that he “learned my (his) lesson”. Jesus always sent His disicples out 2 by 2, never alone.

As for hindering God’s will…God never wants us to suffer, which was the entire reason He sent His only Son to live & die for us. Does God allow these evil or negative spirits to “test” or “influence” us? Yes, & He gave us the free will to either follow the temptation, give in to the influence, refuse to combat those spirits, or rely on His grace & power to deliver us, but we need to call on His power. God does not want the evil one to drag us down with him, so we must know how to combat/defend ourselves agaisnt the evil one’s attacks.

I see that God allowed you to see the sin of your own pride (as you admitted), but that doesn’t mean that you are helpless or hindered from defending yourself. If that was the case, then why pray at all? I know that’s not where you are coming from, but if the Lord wishes to use you as a instrument of His healing grace then don’t let fear deny God the right to use you.

 

[RoyJr]

Royjr, I’m interested in what you call deliverance. I have a loved one who is a former hells angel prospect (motorcycle club) and needs some help. I tried to be a source of help, but it is beyond me. It is not so recognisible as the Church would do anything about it. But I know in my gut something is not right. What is this “deliverance”? Tim

I gave a definition in my previous post.

Some good books on the subject would be the book that I mention by Fr. DeGrandis, unfortunately it’s out of print.

Another really good one is : Deliverance From Evil Spirits by Fr. Michael Scanlan, T.O.R. & Randall Cirner.

Fr. Mike Scanlan is affiliated wtih the Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio. His book is a guide to anyone wishing to grasp a deeper understanding on the study of deliverance.

I also believe Fr. John Hampsch has books/CD’s on this subject.

God Bless.

 

[TOP]

Did you attempt a “deliverance” on yourself or someone else alone? If you did & the person was under deep spiritual bondage then I can see where the “beating up” could take place. Same thing happened to a former associate pastor at my parish some years ago, he also told me that he “learned my (his) lesson”. Jesus always sent His disicples out 2 by 2, never alone.

This happened at a cookout I had with my extended family. I wanted to plant the seed of the Word of God in him, so I went and got a bible and read something that had stood out at me about doing battle. I was mostly ignored by everyone who was having their own conversations, but was sitting next to the person (my brother) who I wanted to hear it. As he started to pay attention, I felt this dark, towering presence of rage come litterly over me, not in me. I thought he would reach out and choke me. All my hairs stood up on ends and I felt alot of fear, but I continued to read. He left shorty afterwards, nothing said about it. But I felt something full of rage that day. And I think it had some lasting effects as the Lord humbled me for along time. I’m currently trying to get a green scapular to him, but he has lost the desire to get back in touch with me. I know he has done something terrible as a prospect of the hells angels mc and feels beyond redemption. I’ve invited him to Mass with my family on Christmas as a get together, but he never showed. I don’t want to go beyond what I am capable of doing myself, but giving the chance I will risk it for my brother since he won’t respond to others. Tim

 

[RoyJr]

This happened at a cookout I had with my extended family. I wanted to plant the seed of the Word of God in him, so I went and got a bible and read something that had stood out at me about doing battle. I was mostly ignored by everyone who was having their own conversations, but was sitting next to the person (my brother) who I wanted to hear it. As he started to pay attention, I felt this dark, towering presence of rage come litterly over me, not in me. I thought he would reach out and choke me. All my hairs stood up on ends and I felt alot of fear, but I continued to read. He left shorty afterwards, nothing said about it. But I felt something full of rage that day. I’m currently trying to get a green scapular to him, but he has lost the desire to get back in touch with me. I know he has done something terrible as a prospect of the hells angels mc and feels beyond redemption. I’ve invited him to Mass with my family on Christmas as a get together, but he never showed. I don’t want to beyond what I am capable of doing myself, but giving the chance I will risk it for my brother since he won’t respond to others. Tim

A good idea is to have Masses said for him. I had almost a dozen masses said for my daughter just month’s before she made her First Holy Communion for her well-being. It’s the best way to pray for your brother & his deliverance. Pope Benedict the 15th said that one mass said for a person while they are alive does far more good than a dozen said after they are dead.

I’ll pray for him too.

 

[TOP]

A good idea is to have Masses said for him. I had almost a dozen masses said for my daughter just month’s before she made her First Holy Communion for her well-being. It’s the best way to pray for your brother & his deliverance. Pope Benedict the 15th said that one mass said for a person while they are alive does far more good than a dozen said after they are dead.

I’ll pray for him too.

Thanks, will do. Tim

 

[Catherine_S]

One wonders though…how is it that those of Mormon faith experience speaking in tongues and angelic singing etc.?
.
WHAT DOES MORMON HISTORY SAY? **
An Address to All Believers in Christ, by David Whitmer, p. 33, 1887: The Holy Ghost was with us in more power during the eight months previous to April 6, 1830, than ever at any time thereafter. Almost everyone who was baptized received the Holy Ghost in power, some prophesying, some speaking in tongues, the heavens were opened to some andall the signs which Christ promised** should follow the believers were with us abundantly.
History of the Church 4:485, Footnotes, spring 1831: “Soon after he [Alpheus Gifford] went to Kirtland, Ohio, to see the Prophet Joseph Smith and the brethren, when he was ordained an Elder; he was accompanied by his brother Levi Elial Strong, Eleazar Miller, Enos Curtis and Abraham Brown, who were baptized on returning to Pennsylvania he preached and baptized many, among whom was Heber C. Kimball. The gifts of the Gospel were enjoyed by many; signs following those that believed, devils were cast out; the sick were healed;** many prophesied;** some spake with new tongues; whileothers interpreted the same.”
He [Joseph Smith] told them it was the pure Adamic language. Some said to him they expected he would condemn the gift Brother Brigham had, but he said** “No, it is of God.” **
History of the Church 1:323, January, 1833: "On the 23rd of January, we again assembled in conference; when, after much speaking, singing praying, and praising God, all in tongues, we proceeded to the washing of feet (according to the practice recorded in the 13th chapter of John’s Gospel), as commanded of the Lord.
Prescindia Huntington autobiography, (1836-1839) in Women of Mormondom (1877), pages 207-209: "When the brethren and sisters came home in the evening, they told of the power of God manifested in the temple [Kirtland temple] that day, and of the prophesying and** speaking in tongues**. It was also said, in the interpretation of tongues, That the angels were resting down upon the house...At another time a cousin of ours came to visit us at Kirtland. She wanted to go to one of the saints' fast meetings, to hear someone **sing **or** speak in tongues**, but she said she expected to have a hearty laugh. Accordingly we went with our cousin to the meeting, during which a Brother McCarter rose and **sang a song of Zion in tongues**; I arose and sang simultaneously with him the same tune and words, beginning and ending each verse **in perfect unison**, without varying a word. It was just as though we had sung it together a thousand times. After we came out of meeting, our cousin observed, Instead of laughing,** I never felt so solemn in my life.**
History of the Church 2:376, January 1836: "President Rigdon then arose and observed that instead of preaching the time would be occupied by the Presidency and Twelve, in speaking each in his turn until they had all spoken. The Lord poured out His Spirit upon us, and the brethren began to confess their faults one to the other, and **the congregation was soon overwhelmed in tears, **and some of our hearts were too big for utterance. The gift of tongues came on us also, like the rushing of a mighty wind, and my soul was filled with the glory of God."


Taken from Speaking In Tongues and the** Mormon Religion:**
http://www.frontiernet.net/~bcmmin/tongue1.htm
.

 

[Mary_ann_R]

Royjr, I’m interested in what you call deliverance. I have a loved one who is a former hells angel prospect (motorcycle club) and needs some help. I tried to be a source of help, but it is beyond me. It is not so recognisible as the Church would do anything about it. But I know in my gut something is not right. What is this “deliverance”? Tim

Top,
I hope you don’t mind if I make a recommendation for you to read?
The book is called Unbound - by Neil Lozano. It is an excellent book. My prayers go with you. God Bless!

 

[cyberwolf001]

My issue with Charismatics is that outside of a small group I’ve meet the majority look down on Catholics who don’t follow the same views as them.

Even that CCC website has barely hidden contempt for people that follow Church Approved private revelations i.e. Fatima, the exact response being along the lines of better The Bible than “traditional” devotions. Yes quotes and all, sounds very Protestant to me.

ccc.garg.com/index.php?name=FAQ&id_cat=3#q49

I’ve even been told I am not a true Catholic until I’ve been slain in the spirit and am in danger of hellfire for not being Charismatic…

 

[water]

I’ve even been told I am not a true Catholic until I’ve been slain in the spirit and am in danger of hellfire for not being Charismatic…

Some of these people are either not well informed or misunderstood what they have heard at some seminars. Pray for them. I have seen such cases; however, their love for God and neighbors are getting deeper. Pray that they understand clearly the teaching of the church.