Ask about Catholic Charismatic Renewal

[Mary_ann_R]

Am I an outcast with God since I do not accept Pentecostalism/Charismatic meetings? Is it OKI if I do not believe in the so-called “miracles?” Am I still able to receive Jesus in the Eucharist if I reject Charismatic practices and notions? Am I a heretic?

All Christians are Charismatic! The Church in essence is Charismatic!

 

[johnstown_johnn]

All Christians are Charismatic! The Church in essence is Charismatic!

Never heard that before. Is that some kind of generic statement?

OR, Is it a specfic statement as regards the Charismatic movement within the Church?

Does it mean we Catholics are part of a movement whether we believe it or not? If those that DO NOT believe in the “miracles” the “ecstasy” the “tongues” is it a sin against the Holy Spirit?

Then what is the status? Is it a GENERAL term not fully understood or is it a precise term?

As for the Church: it is ONE, HOLY and APOSTOLIC. That is its essence.

 

[Mary_ann_R]

Never heard that before. Is that some kind of generic statement?

OR, Is it a specfic statement as regards the Charismatic movement within the Church?

Does it mean we Catholics are part of a movement whether we believe it or not? If those that DO NOT believe in the “miracles” the “ecstasy” the “tongues” is it a sin against the Holy Spirit?

Then what is the status? Is it a GENERAL term not fully understood or is it a precise term?

As for the Church: it is ONE, HOLY and APOSTOLIC. That is its essence.

The word Charism means gift, therefore, everyone who has a gift is a charismatic. The gifts were given by the Holy Spirit so that we through the gifts may serve the church. Any gift that serves the church is a charism given by the Holy Spirit. Being a Bishop is a gift, being a priest is a gift, being Pope is a gift, being an altar boy is a gift, singing in the choir is a gift, being a cantor is a gift, being an usher is a gift. These gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to someone so that they may serve the church. Having recieved this gift and exercising it makes them Charismatic, thus, anyone who serves the church in any way by exercising a charism/gift is by very definition a Charismatic. Thus, all Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them given by Batism, Confirmation, etc, are Charismatics.

Please read and prayfully meditate on 1 Cor 12 where it speaks about all gifts are given for service to the church.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The word Charism means gift, therefore, everyone who has a gift is a charismatic. The gifts were given by the Holy Spirit so that we through the gifts may serve the church. Any gift that serves the church is a charism given by the Holy Spirit. Being a Bishop is a gift, being a priest is a gift, being Pope is a gift, being an altar boy is a gift, singing in the choir is a gift, being a cantor is a gift, being an usher is a gift. These gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to someone so that they may serve the church. Having recieved this gift and exercising it makes them Charismatic, thus, anyone who serves the church in any way by exercising a charism/gift is by very definition a Charismatic. Thus, all Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them given by Batism, Confirmation, etc, are Charismatics.

Please read and prayfully meditate on 1 Cor 12 where it speaks about all gifts are given for service to the church.

OK, thank you for the clearing up of the confusion. Then “charism” is a general term. As general as it might be though, I personally never heard that before and I was educated in Catholic school.

To one like myself, I needed some graphic explanation. Nevertheless, I am too long a Catholic to take on a new nomenclature. It may not be new to you but it is to me. No offense meant.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

STEP OUT OF YOUR COMFORT ZONES CATHOLICS!
You may be surprised.

I do, and I am, every time I hit that search button:

Catholic Charismatics and NAM-the Parallels

A Charismatic Weekend at Steubenville

“Catholic” Pentecostalism

A note of interest: From the above article:

Catholic Pentecostals believe that the great outpouring of the spirit in modern times really began from a small Protestant sect in Topeka, Kansas, led by Charles F. Parham. Some “Catholic” Charismatics such as Peter Herbeck (of Ralph Martin’s Renewal Ministries), treat Parham’s revivalist movement as a Divine manifestation equal in drama and holiness to the visitations of Our Lady of Fatima.

This Charles Parham was a Freemason and a very active member of the Ku Klux Klan. Time to start researching Morals and Dogma ?

 

[Mary_ann_R]

OK, thank you for the clearing up of the confusion. Then “charism” is a general term. As general as it might be though, I personally never heard that before and I was educated in Catholic school.

To one like myself, I needed some graphic explanation. Nevertheless, I am too long a Catholic to take on a new nomenclature. It may not be new to you but it is to me. No offense meant.

None taken! My husband and I always say that there needs to be more taught about the charisms. Using these forums makes it hard to get a point across, (it takes a lot of time that we sometimes don’t have) I mean in the sense that it isn’t the same as being face to face. Although, those little smiley faces sometimes help.

God bless you on your journey through life. I’m praying for you!

 

[Mary_ann_R]

Mary_ann_R:
None taken! My husband and I always say that there needs to be more taught about the charisms. Using these forums makes it hard to get a point across, (it takes a lot of time that we sometimes don’t have) I mean in the sense that it isn’t the same as being face to face. Although, those little smiley faces sometimes help.

God bless you on your journey through life. I’m praying for you!

John,

This is from Pope Paul VI.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

CHAPTER II

ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD

1. The holy people of God shares also in Christ’s prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him, especially by means of a life of faith and charity and by offering to God a sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips which give praise to His name.(110) The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One,(111) cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples’ supernatural discernment in matters of faith when “from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful” (8*) they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority, in faithful and respectful obedience to which the people of God accepts that which is not just the word of men but truly the word of God.(112) Through it, the people of God adheres unwaveringly to the faith given once and for all to the saints,(113) penetrates it more deeply with right thinking, and applies it more fully in its life.

It is not only through the sacraments and the ministries of the Church that the Holy Spirit sanctifies and leads the people of God and enriches it with virtues, but, “allotting his gifts to everyone according as He wills,(114) He distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank. By these gifts He makes them fit and ready to undertake the various tasks and offices which contribute toward the renewal and building up of the Church, according to the words of the Apostle: The manifestation of the Spirit is given to everyone for profit”.(115) These charisms, whether they be the more outstanding or the more simple and widely diffused, are to be received with thanksgiving and consolation for they are perfectly suited to and useful for the needs of the Church. Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought after, nor are the fruits of apostolic labor to be presumptuously expected from their use; but judgment as to their genuinity and proper use belongs to those who are appointed leaders in the Church, to whose special competence it belongs, not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.(116)

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Nowhere in Pope Paul’s announcement (above) has he directed Catholics to Charismatic Meetings that have “speaking in tongues,” “slain spirit” and whatever takes place at those events…I have no idea since I never attended one. As a boy, I did see by peeking through a seam in the newspaper-taped window coverings of a Pentacostal revival in an empty store rented by that group.

Lots of noise, tambourines, handclapping, shouting, lots of movements like jumping, gargling, castanetes.

I gotta tell ya…it scared the dickens out of me.

None of these things go on at Charismatic events…right?

 

[water]

My question is - do we have to have praying in tongue? What if one has the gift of praying in tongue, but does not feel comfortable about it; hence, he stops praying in tongue; instead, he prays the rosary and all other devotions.

Is he wrong? Does the devil work in him?

 

[Mary_ann_R]

Nowhere in Pope Paul’s announcement (above) has he directed Catholics to Charismatic Meetings that have “speaking in tongues,” “slain spirit” and whatever takes place at those events…I have no idea since I never attended one. As a boy, I did see by peeking through a seam in the newspaper-taped window coverings of a Pentacostal revival in an empty store rented by that group.

Lots of noise, tambourines, handclapping, shouting, lots of movements like jumping, gargling, castanetes.

I gotta tell ya…it scared the dickens out of me.

None of these things go on at Charismatic events…right?

The Pope knows the forum for Charismatic prayer in the Holy Spirit so he will reiterate scripture…order, test things…always under the leadership of the hierarchy of the Church and their group leaders. At our prayer meeting we have the Blessed Sacrament exposed and are very reverent when in His presence. We have a lot of intercessory prayer and thanksgiving prayer -and sometimes prayer in tongues. Not everyone in our group has the gift of tongues and that’s ok, it’s not a requirement to be a part of the prayer group. Once in a while we may sing a song (ex. Come Holy Ghost), we tend to stick to the more traditional songs. We have silent time to listen to the Lord. We always end our meeting with thanksgiving, the Lords Prayer, Hail Mary, Glory Be and prayer to St. Michael. But as I said that is how our prayer meeting is conducted. I have been to Conferences where there are thousands of people and there’s no jumping around and carrying on. They had a band playing and a few people who were moved by the music, danced, which is not unusual if you like music, (not jumping around) but were not disturbing other people. When the speakers were on stage everyone sat and listened. It’s an inspiration to see thousands of people praising the Lord. There were Three Bishops, the one presiding in the Diocese, one retired, and an Aux. Bishop, plus about 20+ priests at the Mass that Sunday. It was beautiful!

When dealing with other denominations (Pentocostal) etc, your are dealing too with their culture, which is not same as ours so there will be some things that we are not used to. That’s not to say that they are bad, just that they are different.

I wish I had more time, but I have to run. Take care!

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

:"When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began to joyfully praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

“Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, order your disciples to stop!”

He replied, “I tell you, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

When I read johnn’s comments about Pentecostal meetings it becomes clear why Catholics are referred to as the “frozen chosen.” They hardly dare to join in the responses at mass and never belt out a hymn like our Protestant friends! Where is the joy of the Lord? Didn’t David dance before the Lord? Weren’t the disciples at Pentecost accused of drunkenness, so filled with the Spirit were they? Come on, cut the Charismatics a little slack if they clap now and then and raise their hands in worship.

I’ve never heard anyone gargle at a prayer meeting but tongues and prophecy are commonplace and an occasional dance not unheard-of. All I can say is “Come and see” and maybe someday you, too, will make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

:"When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began to joyfully praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:

“Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, order your disciples to stop!”

He replied, “I tell you, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.”

When I read johnn’s comments about Pentecostal meetings it becomes clear why Catholics are referred to as the “frozen chosen.” They hardly dare to join in the responses at mass and never belt out a hymn like our Protestant friends! Where is the joy of the Lord? Didn’t David dance before the Lord? Weren’t the disciples at Pentecost accused of drunkenness, so filled with the Spirit were they? Come on, cut the Charismatics a little slack if they clap now and then and raise their hands in worship.

I’ve never heard anyone gargle at a prayer meeting but tongues and prophecy are commonplace and an occasional dance not unheard-of. All I can say is “Come and see” and maybe someday you, too, will make a joyful noise unto the Lord.

“…the stones will cry out…” Isn’t this the passage where children are shouting praise? Jesus then said, “…out of the mouths of babes comes perfected praise…”

David’s joyful dance praising the Lord was NOT during Mass.

The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Christ on the cross. It is somber and meditative. His sacrifice is what we focus on at the Mass.

As for protestant songs…if I wanted to be a Protestant I would go to one of their churches and enroll.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

When I read johnn’s comments about Pentecostal meetings it becomes clear why Catholics are referred to as the “frozen chosen.” They hardly dare to join in the responses at mass and never belt out a hymn like our Protestant friends!

So, you’d like to light a fire under us quiet, still Catholics? I’ve come out. I’ve seen. I also took the liberty of studying some relationships among Protestants, Catholics, and other less welcome congregants. From one of the last links I posted:

In the book Catholic Pentecostals, Kevin and Dorothy Ranaghan (founders of the Catholic Pentecostal movement) describe the movement’s beginnings. The Ranaghans and their colleagues at Duquesne University had been involved with various activities popular at the time (civil rights, etc.). In the midst of these undertakings, they were plagued with great spiritual aridity. To combat this, they claim, the group went in search of a greater influence of God in their lives…

At a Cursillo Congress, this group met Ralph Martin and Steve Clarke who introduced them to the book The Cross and the Switchblade, the story of Protestant Minister David Wilkerson’s success among teen gangs in New York. Because of what Ranaghan and friends regarded as “positive aspects” of Pentecostalism found in this book, and because of the “transformed lives” of two of their friends involved with such activities, they sought a similar experience.

Ranaghan recounts that his group solicited the counsel of an Episcopalian minister, thus ignoring the Catholic wisdom of the ages forbidding positive religious camaraderie with heretical sects. This clergyman introduced them to a Protestant, Pentecostal gathering. The Catholic group attended the meeting and took part in the Bible study.

One of those present, Ralph Keifer, wrote that at the end of this prayer meeting,

“Pat [Bourgeois] and I asked to be prayed with for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They broke up into several groups because they were praying over several people. They simply asked me to make an act of faith for the power of the Spirit to work in me. I prayed in tongues rather quickly.”[5]

Later on, the same Ralph Keifer laid hands on two others (unidentified in the book) and they too “received the baptism in the spirit.”

Mr. Ranaghan and his friends seem to have forgotten the warning of Msgr. Ronald Knox that “to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession.”[6 ]To freely expose oneself to such dangers borders on madness.

It was not surprising then that Kevin Ranaghan was the first speaker on opening night at the 1997 30th anniversary Conference. After boasting that God had filled him to overflowing with the Spirit, Ranaghan recounted that in the early days, in order to in the spirit”, he and his friend sought spiritual advice from a Protestant prayer-group:

“In the beginning the contact with Pentecostals of our area helped us to grow in an understanding and experience of the charisms. We met in the home of the representative of the Full-Gospel Businessmen. And when he heard that a group of Catholics was coming, he rallied the troops, and brought in several Pentecostal ministers and a room full of prayer warriors to engage in what they were sure would be a hard-fought battle. What they found was the most shockingly easy prayer-time they had ever known. We claimed that we had already been baptized in the Holy Spirit, which they found hard to believe because, after all, we were Catholics.” (The audience broke into great laughter, in joyful mockery of the “exclusive salvation” doctrines of the Catholic Church.)

He continued, “We said that we just wanted their help and advice on yielding to and using the gifts. They laid hands on us, and one by one the whole roomful of us started to pray and sing in tongues. No battle, just a victory celebration.”

1. Kevin and Dorothy Ranaghan, Catholic Pentecostals, [New York: Paulist Press, 1969], p 15.
2. Msgr. Ronald Knox, Enthusiasm, [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1950], p. 551.

So, the Catholic Charismatic “annointing” can be traced to the Protestant Pentecostals. I mentioned before, the Pentecostal founder Charles Parham’s connection to Freemasonry and the KKK. Here is confirmation of that:

Sins of “the father”~ Charles F. Parham The Pentecostal Root

Now, read more about what went on with and around this man:

Pentecostal Root

Take a good tour of this site; it’s not written by the Catholic frozen chosen. The Protestants know themselves far better than we do. If it doesn’t frighten the bejeezus out of you, you’ve got a lot more courage than I do.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Thank you.

Being baptized in the "Holy Spirit’ is a redundancy in that we are baptized, “In the name of the Father; the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

In the Letters of Paul we are Baptized only ONCE.

I hope people can break away from this movement and just stick to the Mass. It is the Mass that the promise of salvation is endowed with.

Maybe this is one of the things the “frozen chosen” must be wary of and avoid. No doubt false movements will be prominent in the end times.

“Frozen chosen” is that a monicker Pentacostals place on Catholics? Is it meant as a demeaning appellation? If so, that is the tip-of-the-iceberg because this is how persecutions get their start.

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

Being baptized in the "Holy Spirit’ is a redundancy in that we are baptized, “In the name of the Father; the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

In the Letters of Paul we are Baptized only ONCE.

Dear johnn - My best resource to respond to this is to refer you to scripture. Acts 8:15-20: Peter and John “prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.” See also Acts 19:1-7.

I would plead with you to read prayerfully chapters 1
and 2 of Acts. The disciples were told to tarry in Jerusalem and they waited in the upper room for the power that Jesus had promised when the Holy Spirit would fall upon them. “And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.:” Presumably this included Mary, as she was there, too. Are we to think they had never been baptized with water?

Note especially Chapters 17 and 18: “In the last days I wil pour out my Spirit upon all flesh…”

So much for the notion that the gifts of the Spirit were only for the time of Christ and not for today.

It is the Mass that the promise of salvation is endowed with.

Where did you get that idea? We are saved by accepting Jesus as Lord of our lives. I won’t bother with quotations but urge you to read also 1 Cor. chapter 14.

If you don’t accept these scriptures, please let me know why.

God love you. I pray that you will ask Jesus for more of his spirit. How can you go wrong with that prayer?

 

[johnstown_johnn]

You are NOT saying the Mass is not the principal means for our salvation…correct?

FYI, it is through the Mass ONLY that the Consecration of bread and wine is transubstantiated into the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. It becomes the “Bread of Life” thorough the Mass. Jesus said to Peter, “Feed My sheep,” this is by way of the Holy Eucharist. There is absolutely NOTHING that eclipses the sacrifice of the Mass for our salvation…NOTHING.

Jesus said, "…anyone who does NOT eat My Flesh and drink My Blood will have NO life in Him.

Yes, the disciples were endowed with the “Gift of Tongues” but there was a PURPOSE. The PURPOSE was to “…Go and preach the Gospel to ALL nations…” To do that, they were given the “gift of tongues.”

Pentacostals “babble” in unintelligible “tongues” ; this is a SIDESHOW and has no purpose in “preaching the Gospel to all nations.” Consecration does not take place at pentacostal events.

For any Catholic to say that the Mass is NOT the means to our salvation is a heretic. And I KNOW you are not saying that.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

Acts 8:15-20: Peter and John “prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.”

Uh, weren’t Peter and John bishops? I got the one-time dab-and-slap, too, from our bishop. Worked perfectly fine for me. Now, I need of squad of gabbling women to benny-hinn me? Embarrassingly, I’ve seen them do it to ordained priests in our diocese. What’s wrong with this picture?

This isn’t merely a matter of style. People experienced in delivery and exorcism have noted the possibility of demonic transferance in “laying of hands”. Here’s some Catholic material that helps clarify these problems. First, an overview:

Charismatic Movement

Here is a google search on “charismatic” at the Order of the Legion of St. Michael website: Prudence and Discernment

 

[johnstown_johnn]

The Eucharist is the centerpiece for the Faith. NOTHING overshadows that. And it is in the Mass that the Eucharist is brought to us.

Where Jesus is, so are the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are inseparable.

If “tongues” were not any longer occurring the Movement would disappear. So would the so-called “miracles” cause it to disappear. Miracles, in most occasions, are proven false. False miracles are the most persuasive way to engulf souls.

 

[Dorothy_Vining]

Well, apparently you two johns are birds of a feather, coming from the same place, maybe even in cahoots.

FYI, it is through the Mass ONLY that the Consecration of bread and wine is transubstantiated into the actual Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. It becomes the “Bread of Life” thorough the Mass. Jesus said to Peter, “Feed My sheep,” this is by way of the Holy Eucharist. There is absolutely NOTHING that eclipses the sacrifice of the Mass for our salvation…NOTHING

**Agreed.**

Thanks for the link to the overview on the charismatic movement. It is quite good.

As a born catholic, daily communicant, and a member of the charismatic renewal for 30+ years, I am trying to reconcile my experiences with your negativity about charismatics.

Embarrassingly, I’ve seen them do it to ordained priests in our diocese. What’s wrong with this picture?

What is wrong with this picture is that some priests are deperately in need of conversion–they aren’t even Christian, much less Catholic. Witness the recent priestly scandals. Witness the priests who are afraid to utter a pro-life word. They really need a little fire in their belly.

Enough for now. Pray for me. I wish one of you would tell me you have prayed for whatever gifts the Holy Spirit wants to give you–even if it means you will pray in tongues!

…these two ways of acting of the Holy Spirit, which we’ve seen in the entire Bible and on the day of Pentecost, have been manifested dramatically in our times in the Charismatic Renewal”. In this way the Charismatic Renewal “has drawn out the Pentecostal charisms of the Church, precisely the ones we had lost sight of” and it could be considered as “God’s answer to the prayer of John XXIII for a new Pentecost” (the prayer of the Pope at the beginning of the Second Vatican Council)."
–Fr. Cantalamessa.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

If I willfully stopped going to Mass I would lose my immortal soul.

Conversely, if I willfully refuse to attend Charismatic meetings my soul is still in favor with God.