Ask about Catholicism/Christianity

[ryanoneil]

You know they are their. Just to name one that says that he who shall prevail until the end will go to heaven . you know its their so why not elaborate for me? i have read it many a time but i dont quite know where it is. it all goes down to church history and authority. you cannot debate church teaching and doctrine without debunking our history. which cannot be done.

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mat 10:22)

 

[Cinette]

I came across this verse in Acts 5:38-39

“If this plan or this undertaking is of men, it will fail; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them”

The Catholic Church essentially is the same yesterday, today and will be tomorrow. There are outward signs which might change but the inward signs remain.

After all, Jesus did say when he appointed Peter “…and upon this rock I will build my Church…” He said that he would be with us always and that the Holy Spirit would be there to guide us.

From the very beginning the Church had to fight heretics. Simon the magician and the Gnostics and so on and so forth… They eventually died a natural death. Then other heretics emerged and one by one they too disappeared. Then 500 years ago the so-called “reformers” emerged and you will notice that like earthworms they splinter and keep on splintering and Protestantism changes and re-invents itself. Luther would be ashamed - he would not recognise “his” church.

And the Church Jesus established stands firm despite the problems it has experienced and continues to experience. Jesus has kept his promise. This is all evidence and some people are just too blind to see! It so clear:yup: :extrahappy:

 

[ryanoneil]

Okay, so God only works through you if you let him. Do you believe you are sovereign over God? Why does the clay try to question the potter in what He can and cannot do with the clay. We are but dust. It seems Roman Catholicism teaches the sovereignity of man as compared to the complete sovereignity of God. Sounds semi-pelagism to me, but what do I know? God does whatever pleases Him, regardless of the actions of men. That is why God is the Almighty God; He does not need your permission.

But he respects our free will. God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve. God hardens unbelievers hearts as a punishment for their sin of unbelief. God will “work through” even the unfaithful ones, whose hearts are hardened (like Pharoah), to punish sinners and manifest His glory. God’s will can never be thwarted.

There are two sides to the equation: what God does, and what we do. Some Scriptures deal only with what God does, and others only with what we do, but we cannot interpret them in isolation. Proper exegesis of Scripture means to read what the text says, and harmonize it with the entire Bible. We cannot assert what is not there, and deny what is not there either.

18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

This is about what God does.

20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

This is about we do.

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Rom 9

24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.Rom 9

This is about what God does.

The verses are about God’s power (which is infinite), and our human response (which is not).

Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory. This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself. (2 Tim 2:10-13)

Even the “elect” can “deny” Jesus. There is always a balance between two principles that seem to be inapposite, here God’s will and human free will. hope that helps.

 

[Cinette]

But he respects our free will. God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve. God hardens unbelievers hearts as a punishment for their sin of unbelief. God will “work through” even the unfaithful ones, whose hearts are hardened (like Pharoah), to punish sinners and manifest His glory. God’s will can never be thwarted.

There are two sides to the equation: what God does, and what we do. Some Scriptures deal only with what God does, and others only with what we do, but we cannot interpret them in isolation. Proper exegesis of Scripture means to read what the text says, and harmonize it with the entire Bible. We cannot assert what is not there, and deny what is not there either.

18 Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.

This is about what God does.

This is about we do.

24 namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.Rom 9

This is about what God does.

The verses are about God’s power (which is infinite), and our human response (which is not).

Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory. This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself. (2 Tim 2:10-13)

Even the “elect” can “deny” Jesus. There is always a balance between two principles that seem to be inapposite, here God’s will and human free will. hope that helps.

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction”.

(2Pet1:20-2:1)
:yup:

 

[Sam_777]

Thanks Cinette & coleraine for your answers, however, here is another one:

**
(Matthew 7:21-23)**
*“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
*

Who are those people, are those who don’t keep the 10 commandments or the non-Christians?

 

[Reformed]

I would never in my life deny that god is all powerful. He could make every person on this blue marble a Christian right this very moment…but he won’t. Its not because he doesn’t have power over the clay, its because he gave the “clay” the power to do as he wishes. To openly accept god. So, while i understand your logic…what it comes down to is that god does not contradict himself. He gave us free will. We have to choose to use it as he pleases. Or we can choose Satan (don’t). Because god gave us the power to choose. And is god not a “man” (notice quotes) of his word?

I’m very happy to see some are wresting with the scriptures.

Lamentations 3:37-38

Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass,
Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That both good and ill go forth?

Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

 

[Reformed]

Daniel 4:35:

     All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
     But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
     And among the inhabitants of earth;
     And no one can ward off His hand
     Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”

Daniel 4:17

The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, the decision by the word of the holy ones, to the end that the living may know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will and sets over it the lowliest of men.’

Psalm 33:10-11

The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.

James 4:13-15

Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.”

Keep on wresting with the Scriptures. If the Lord wills, we will all be able to see Him with greater clarity. Man is not sovereign.

Ecclesiastes 7:13

Consider the work of God:
who can make straight what he has made crooked?

Proverbs 19:21

Many are the plans in the mind of a man,
but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

 

[Reformed]

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1

John 15:16

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice
9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Romans 11

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Are we having fun playing the sola scriptura game?

 

[ryanoneil]

Keep on wresting with the Scriptures. If the Lord wills, we will all be able to see Him with greater clarity. Man is not sovereign.

Catholics do not believe that man is sovereign. We believe that God has given man free will. Exercising our God given free will is a far cry from exercising supreme authority.

Are we having fun playing the sola scriptura game?

We already agree that man is not sovereign, so what are you trying to say by posting these bible verses?

 

[Psalter]

Thanks coleraine, another questions for you:

I always read that Catholics call Virgin Mary “Mother of God”, and I really find that hard to accept, considering that there are also the Christian protestants whom reject that.

My questions are:

• When did the Catholic Church start calling Virgin Mary “Mother of God”, which year?
• Isn’t that confusing, because non Christians could consider she is Mother of God The Most High.
• Why not calling her “Mother of Lord Jesus” instead?

Sam_777, Mary has been called the “Mother of God” from the beginning of Christianity, and was officially declared to be the Mother of God (Greek: Theotokos, literally, “God-bearer”) at the Council of Ephesus in A.D. 431. The Council of Ephesus was convened to deal with the heretic Nestorius, who claimed that Jesus Christ was not one but two persons–one man, the other God–and that Mary gave birth to the man Jesus Christ but not the Divine Word (Greek, Logos). The orthodox Catholic belief is that Jesus Christ has two natures, human and divine, which are united in a single person (the doctrine called the “hypostatic union”). God assumed the flesh and lived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for nine months; she cradled Him in her arms, suckled Him at her breast, etc. Since Mary gave birth to Christ–and Christ is both God and man–it is quite appropriate to call Mary the Mother of God. To deny that Mary is the Mother of God leaves the door open to heresies about the nature and person of Christ Himself. This is why Mary had to be totally pure–free from all sin, original sin and actual sin–because only such purity is a worthy tabernacle of Almighty God. Do you know anything about the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament? We consider Mary to be the “Ark of the New and everlasting covenant.”

Sam, I found this wikipedia article to be informative, maybe it might help you understand why we call Mary the “Mother of God” (Theotokos, “she who gives birth to God”) and what we mean when we call her that: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos

 

[Psalter]

Thanks Cinette & coleraine for your answers, however, here is another one:

**
(Matthew 7:21-23)**
*“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
*

Who are those people, are those who don’t keep the 10 commandments or the non-Christians?

It refers to people who are Christians or claim to be Christians, but do not really know and obey Jesus Christ.

 

[Psalter]

Jesus is god, God is Jesus. The trinity is one. She may as well be called “Mary mother of the Trinity.” She is called Mary mother of God because that is the way it has always been done. I do not have an exact date, but the early church fathers (some as early as 200 a.d.) had a clear Catholic faith. When it comes down to this certain question, you must ask your self whom you want to believe. Catholics, which have a 2000 year history. Or Protestants who have a mere 500 years.

Actually, I don’t think it would be accurate to call Mary the Mother of the Trinity, but only the Mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ. We often say that Mary is the daughter of God, the Father, the Mother of God, the Son, and the Spouse of God, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

It refers to people who are Christians or claim to be Christians, but do not really know and obey Jesus Christ.

those who worship Jesus (p) as God , believe that father & son were always there at a same time , may be Jesus (p) will deny them ???

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

Jesus is god, God is Jesus. The trinity is one. She may as well be called “Mary mother of the Trinity.” …

Christians believe Bible is words of God . Regarding Bible , neither Jesus nor Mother Mary ( pbut ) taught anyone to call Mary (p) mother of the Trinity of mother of God.

So , must u follow your bible or trust in men made explanations ?

 

[SimonArizona]

Salaam/peace

Christians believe Bible is words of God . Regarding Bible , neither Jesus nor Mother Mary ( pbut ) taught anyone to call Mary (p) mother of the Trinity of mother of God.

So , must u follow your bible or trust in men made explanations ?

Salaam:thankyou:

The Bible is not the Pillar and foundation of the truth, the Church is. That is what the apostles taught. Mary is called mother of God because the Apostles taught that Jesus shares in His Fathers glory, shares the divine nature.

“and now Father glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was.”

"For He is the life according to His nature as God, and when He became united to His flesh, He made it also to be life-giving"-St. Cyril

 

[ryanoneil]

Salaam/peace

Christians believe Bible is words of God . Regarding Bible , neither Jesus nor Mother Mary ( pbut ) taught anyone to call Mary (p) mother of the Trinity of mother of God.

So , must u follow your bible or trust in men made explanations ?

And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)

And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)

Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. (John 19:27)

 

[Angelos]

Salaam/peace

Christians believe Bible is words of God . Regarding Bible , neither Jesus nor Mother Mary ( pbut ) taught anyone to call Mary (p) mother of the Trinity of mother of God.

So , must u follow your bible or trust in men made explanations ?

Muslims believe that the Koran is a direct revelation from Allah. There is not a single verse in the Koran that designates Jesus or Mary as Muslims. Must Muslims follow their scripture or trust in man-made explanations?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

The Bible is not the Pillar and foundation of the truth,

the Church is.

pl. explain more.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

…the mother of my Lord should come to me? (Luke 1:43)

Lord could be leader / teacher etc. Does this verse mean Mary (p) is also mother of the father ?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

Salaam/peace

… Must Muslims follow their scripture or trust in man-made explanations?

discussion will be off topic here. Sadly some Christians browse anti Islamic sites & flood any thread on Islam .

Hopefully Muslims won’t follow that bad example & will leave this & other threads for discussions on related issues only.