Ask about Islam round 3!

[Charlotte2008]

J C, Muslim Woman has presented to you all things in detail. Perhaps now you will also bring out a good list of your good beliefs please. It is no use saying these things were known for ages.
.

We have brought out a list of our beliefs time and time again.

Watch this please and answer why you are brainwashing your children into hating non-believers if Islam is a “religion of peace”?

youtube.com/watch?v=aml9VvhRXrE

I find it interesting that she says “Our God” - I thought we had the “same” God. She also says for them to be “true muslims” - what exactly is that or according to other muslims are they “not real muslims” - I have heard that hundreds of times as a useless excuse. Do not say it is a fake video when clearly they are muslims!

 

[rikkk1958]

**J C, Muslim Woman has presented to you all things in detail. Perhaps now you will also bring out a good list of your good beliefs please. It is no use saying these things were known for ages.

I remind you that Quran calls itself “tadhkirah” i.e. a reminder. the truths that Quran teaches are already known to mankind. They are in the nature of mankind. The truths that Quran is presenting to the world is nothing new (out of the blue sky)… All are the universal truths thatthe world may have forgotten, like worshipping a mere man. etc. was not allowed in any previous religion. Tell me:

1. which religion taught to worship a man or man of God.?
2. Which religion made a man into god?

So the prophet Muhammad brought the real old teachings back to mankind reminding them of the old teachings of all prophets of God.**

Planten my friend, this is the reason why you are so confused and like your prophet, you are incoherent. When you are talking of something to prove your point, stick to it. Do not keep going around it to avoid a direct hit from us. Confront the truth with reasons that can refute these truth head on. You have been doing this just because you do not want to accept defeat unless you are here being sent by someone to keep trying no matter what the outcome would be. Can’t you see the posts? Obviously, when something is evidently disproving Muhammed and his works you are like running away because you stick to other teachings in the quran which you think support your reasons. This will not make you correct becasue the other issues are contradicting his works, which means a deception of his true identity, like the devil in disguise.

I also find that you are still not convinced in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. See, your post suggest that you are enlightened by scriptures already known to mankind which I am sure refers to the Old Testament. Now, If you believe in the Old Testament, then you must believe in Jesus Christ because He fulfilled the prophesies that are written there. His birth, purpose, and love to mankind is in tune with the story of creation and the story of mankind that needed to be reminded over from time to time because of their transgressions to God. Jesus Christ is not just a mere man of your understanding although He walked in human flesh. He was perfect and you know well that no mere human is perfect. He was conceived without the process of human interaction but the Holy Spirit that descended upon a Virgin who was Blessed and favored by God.

Now, if you keep insisting that you do not believe in Jesus because He is just a mere man, then your understanding is poor because you are rejecting the Scriptures about Him. This is just because a true mere human being who is Muhammed deceived you, even though you are clearly told that he is not what you think he is. The facts surrounding his life and works don’t lie. However, you insists that he is not what we think he is and his works in the quran are truthful therefore the other writings aside from the quran will never change what he said in the quran.

So to make my story short, try to read again what was said about muhammed and then try to decipher it one by one with your heart and mind before you continue your argument with the brilliant posters you have debated here.

 

[chrisse]

Planten my friend, this is the reason why you are so confused and like your prophet, you are incoherent. When you are talking of something to prove your point, stick to it. Do not keep going around it to avoid a direct hit from us. Confront the truth with reasons that can refute these truth head on. You have been doing this just because you do not want to accept defeat unless you are here being sent by someone to keep trying no matter what the outcome would be. Can’t you see the posts? Obviously, when something is evidently disproving Muhammed and his works you are like running away because you stick to other teachings in the quran which you think support your reasons. This will not make you correct becasue the other issues are contradicting his works, which means a deception of his true identity, like the devil in disguise.

I also find that you are still not convinced in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. See, your post suggest that you are enlightened by scriptures already known to mankind which I am sure refers to the Old Testament. Now, If you believe in the Old Testament, then you must believe in Jesus Christ because He fulfilled the prophesies that are written there. His birth, purpose, and love to mankind is in tune with the story of creation and the story of mankind that needed to be reminded over from time to time because of their transgressions to God. Jesus Christ is not just a mere man of your understanding although He walked in human flesh. He was perfect and you know well that no mere human is perfect. He was conceived without the process of human interaction but the Holy Spirit that descended upon a Virgin who was Blessed and favored by God.

Now, if you keep insisting that you do not believe in Jesus because He is just a mere man, then your understanding is poor because you are rejecting the Scriptures about Him. This is just because a true mere human being who is Muhammed deceived you, even though you are clearly told that he is not what you think he is. The facts surrounding his life and works don’t lie. However, you insists that he is not what we think he is and his works in the quran are truthful therefore the other writings aside from the quran will never change what he said in the quran.

So to make my story short, try to read again what was said about muhammed and then try to decipher it one by one with your heart and mind before you continue your argument with the brilliant posters you have debated here.

Planten et al know the Jesus is more than a mere man - even in the qur’an He is not born of man and woman, but with the Holy Spirit. However, that’s too logical for an adherent of the ideology of islam - they’ve been told their “essa/issa” is a man even though he wasn’t conceived as one, so that’s that - it’s in the qur’an. More islamic illogic.-

 

[rikkk1958]

Planten et al know the Jesus is more than a mere man - even in the qur’an He is not born of man and woman, but with the Holy Spirit. However, that’s too logical for an adherent of the ideology of islam - they’ve been told their “essa/issa” is a man even though he wasn’t conceived as one, so that’s that - it’s in the qur’an. More islamic illogic.-

Yea, Planten is just like this for a long time now and I thought I promised myself not to respond to him directly anymore. The thing about him is at least he is respectful in most ways. His only problem is the hardness of his heart. I hope someday he can accept Jesus Christ. He is wasting his precious time with Muhammed and Islam. I know deep in his heart he wanted to understand but it seems that the damage is deep, just like any other Muslims.

When things get tough, they will resort to absurdity just like paarsurey who was banned. If they want to debate theology, they must remain in the context of theology.

 

[sedonaman]

You have made an important point- Islam is an orthopraxic religion- deeds and works net salvation. Additionally, all deeds can be classified into different types, based on merit (or demerits) they incur.

I wonder what St. Paul would have to say if he was in this discussion.

Perhaps something like:

"There is in the Qur’an an exhortation to men to love Allah. Perhaps the best verse in the Qur’an which contains this injunction is this one:

“Say, If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins”. Surah 3:31

"Significantly, however, one does not find in this verse (nor in any other in the Qur’an) the command to love Allah with “all your heart, soul, and mind”. The reason is fairly clear from the verse itself. The hearer is exhorted to love Allah so that he may thereby obtain Allah’s love and forgiveness. The basic object, therefore, of this love is the acquittal and approval of Allah for the believer. Accordingly the motivation for such love must be the welfare and comfort of the believer. It is not suggested in the Qur’an that such love must be exercised in a disinterested and selfless manner with the glory of Allah foremost in the believer’s mind. On the contrary,*** the object of such love is really the believer himself.*** He seeks by this love fundamentally to turn aside Allah’s wrath and to gain his approval in its place. Now this is not the fruit of genuine love. Such love, as we have seen, must be the exercise of the purest affections of the heart towards Allah – it cannot be accompanied by an ancillary motive such as the principal objective of obtaining Allah’s forgiveness.

“For this reason it is therefore quite significant that the Qur’an does not exhort the believer to love Allah with all his heart. Such love from the heart is essentially selfless in nature. That which seeks its own security does not proceed from the heart. It is not the expression of the deepest affections of the very kernel of a man’s being. Love in the latter sense seeks principally the glory of its object – but that which strives for the approval of Allah and considers primarily its own prospects of forgiveness is fundamentally self-motivated. It cannot be described as genuine love and certainly he who loves Allah chiefly to obtain his forgiveness is not fulfilling the royal commandment – indeed what Jesus [that great prophet of Islam] called the “great and first commandment” to love God with all his heart, soul and mind. As we saw earlier, the fear of Allah’s wrath disqualifies the potential for genuine love in the heart.” answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/love.html [Emphasis added]

For this reason, Islamic “worship” cannot lead one to perfection.

 

[Charlotte2008]

A Letter to Mankind

Dear fellow human,

Today humanity is being challenged. Unthinkable atrocities take place on daily basis. There is an evil force at work that aims to destroy us. The agents of this evil respect nothing; not even the lives of children. Every day there are bombings, every day innocent people are targeted and murdered. It seems as if we are helpless. But we are not!

The ancient Chinese sage Sun Zi said, “Know your enemy and you won’t be defeated”. Do we know our enemy? If we don’t, then we are doomed.

Terrorism is not an ideology, it is a tool; but the terrorists kill for an ideology. They call that ideology Islam.

The entire world, both Muslims and non-Muslims claim that the terrorists have hijacked “the religion of peace” and Islam does not condone violence.

Who is right? Do the terrorists understand Islam better, or do those who decry them? The answer to this question is the key to our victory, and failure to find that key will result in our loss and death will be upon us. The key is in the Quran and the history of Islam.

Those of us, who know Islam, know that the understanding of the terrorists of Islam is correct. They are doing nothing that their prophet did not do and did not encourage his followers to do. Murder, rape, assassination, beheading, massacre and sacrilege of the dead “to delight the hearts of the believers” were all practiced by Muhammad, were taught by him and were observed by Muslims throughout their history.

If truth has ever mattered, it matters most now! This is the time that we have to call a spade a spade. This is the time that we have to find the root of the problem and eradicate it. The root of Islamic terrorism is Islam. The proof of that is the Quran.

We are a group of ex-Muslims who have seen the face of the evil and have risen to warn the world. No matter how painful the truth may be, only truth can set us free. Why this much denial? Why so much obstinacy? How many more innocent lives should be lost before YOU open your eyes?

We urge the Muslims to leave Islam. Stop with excuses, justifications and rationalizations. Stop dividing mankind into “us” vs. “them” and Muslims vs. Kafirs. We are One people, One mankind! Muhammad was not a messenger of God. It is time that we end this insanity and face the truth. The terrorists take their moral support and the validation for their actions from you. Your very adherence to their cult of death is a nod of approval for their crimes against humanity.

We also urge the non-Muslims to stop being politically correct lest they hurt the sensitivities of the Muslims. To Hell with their sensitivities! Let us save their lives, and the lives of millions of innocent people.

Millions, if not billions of lives will be lost if we do nothing. Time is running out! “All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.” Do something! Send this message to everyone in your address book and ask them to do the same. Defeat Islam and stop terrorism. This is your world, save it.

The ex-Muslim Movement

www.faithfreedom.org

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

**
Murder, rape, assassination, beheading, massacre …all practiced by Muhammad,**

How long will u be brainwashed like this by the media propaganda ???

The Life of The Last Prophet by Yusuf Islam
( ex Cat Stevens)

click to listen :

islamicity.com/audio/lprophet.ram

We urge the Muslims to leave Islam.

 

[sedonaman]

How long will u [sic] be brainwashed like this by the media propaganda ???

Thanks God [sic], no sensible person will listen to you.

Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world

cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

This is rich. The media are “brainwashing” and spreading “propaganda” when they say the truth about Mohammed/Islam, but are reliable sources of information when it says something favorable [in Muslim eyes].

So which is it? Are the media “brainwashing” and spreading “propaganda” or being truthful?

 

[samaan]

**samaan, I have every right to ask your about the very basic simple question. You do not believe in what Muhamamd said. I wanted to know whom do you believe. You have failed completely to answer the difficult question. It will soon be proved that you people have no religion because you have made up things.

Tell me who told you that Jesus is god? You still have time but I am sure you cannot reply to my question till doomsday.**

Planten, you

The only failure here in this debate, Planten, are your arguments:
-You provide no textual proof
-You provide no consistent reasoning
-You provide no relevant examples
-You provide no referenced sources

Your arguments are a joke, Planten, because you have referenced only yourself. When you are found to be wrong, you change topics and try to force people to answer your questions.

I don’t play your games, Planten. That’s dishonest and not worthy of discussion.

I say to anybody who reads this post, as I said on another message board, don’t
answer any of Planten’s questions until he answers mine, which he has repeatedly refused and tried to avoid doing so. When he started to lose the argument, he tried to change topic. When I told him I wasn’t playing his games, he went to a different thread.

You, Planten, need to be accountable for your answers, as I am with myself.

You don’t deserve answers to your questions until you finish the discussion in and honest and intelligent manner that you started and I was continuing with you until you left because you refused to be accountable for your answers.

 

[Charlotte2008]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

How long will u be brainwashed like this by the media propaganda ???

The Life of The Last Prophet by Yusuf Islam
( ex Cat Stevens)

click to listen :

islamicity.com/audio/lprophet.ram

**Why do you care so much about a convert? If islam is true why do you always drag his words out every time?
**

Thanks God , no sensible person will listen to you.

Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world

**Not true. Christianity is still, and will always be, the worlds fastest growing religion. BTW when last did islamists do a numbers count considering that is the most important thing to them it seems? Millions of ex-muslims have left yet are too scared to admit it. Look around next time you are at your mosque and wonder how many are still there only in person! I live in London and month by month the number of ex-muslims coming to Christ is amazing!
**
cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

Despite US propaganda, bias negative reporting, and outright lies about islam, 34,000 Americans have converted to Islam following the events of September 11, and this is the highest rate reached in the U.S. since Islam arrived there

Yep and how many have abandoned it? 75% according to your own scholars. youtube.com/watch?v=v8EC8-aVlrE. To use your own words despite islamic propaganda, bias negative reporting, and outright lies about Christainity, millions of muslims have converted to Christianity.

sultan.org/articles/convert.html

The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you, until you follow their faith.

**Actually, we do not hate muslims - we hate islam. That is the reason we want you to know Jesus and be saved. Of course mohammed would say that otherwise he would have to admit it is all lies and how could he deceive people otherwise? Couldn’t.
**
O Muhammad, tell them : “Allah’s guidance is the only guidance;” and if after all the knowledge you have received, you yield to their desires, there shall be none to protect you or help you from the wrath of Allah.

Those to whom We have given the book and who read it as it ought to be read, they are the ones who believe in it; as for those who reject it, they are for sure the losers
Qur’an 2:120-121

I do gladly reject every word of the quran. PROUD INFIDEL, FOLLOWER OF CHRIST. Join us!

 

[samaan]

Jharek,

MuslimWoman is giving, from my experince, a “typical MOslem argument.”

Actually, it sounds like all that she knows about Christianity and “debating” she learned from Ahmed Deedat. Deedat, keep in mind, when he debated Dr. Anis Shorrosh, tried to continually change topics and when the debate was over, he made a tape of the debate but selectively edited it in order to present himself as the victory and Dr. Shorrosh as the loser. This is despite Shorrosh also producing a copy of the real debate unedited, as well as challenging Deedat to (I believe) a third debate, from which Deedat backed down.

I bet MuslimWoman cannot stick to a single topic and make a consistent argument about it.

MuslimWoman, if you read this post, I bet you can’t make one single, consisten argument in response to any of my posts.

What’s your response?

 

[dzheremi]

Samaan: You are not expected to know such things since you are so new here, but for your own future reference most of MW’s arguments actually come from “Dr.” Zakir Naik, who I suppose is sort of Ahmed Didat’s successor in spreading lies about Christianity based on a pathetic understanding of other religions and a constant need to try to make them fit into the Islamic mold of revelation and epistemology.

And when I say “based on”, that’s really a nice way to say “generally cut and pasted directly from Islamic apologetics written by Naik”. So I would not be surprised if any response you do get from her in this or any other conversation has at least some of the good “Doctor”'s pearls of wisdom thrown into it.

 

[samaan]

Samaan: You are not expected to know such things since you are so new here, but for your own future reference most of MW’s arguments actually come from “Dr.” Zakir Naik, who I suppose is sort of Ahmed Didat’s successor in spreading lies about Christianity based on a pathetic understanding of other religions and a constant need to try to make them fit into the Islamic mold of revelation and epistemology.

And when I say “based on”, that’s really a nice way to say “generally cut and pasted directly from Islamic apologetics written by Naik”. So I would not be surprised if any response you do get from her in this or any other conversation has at least some of the good “Doctor”'s pearls of wisdom thrown into it.

dzheremi,

I’ve been involved with Moslems for some time, so I’m used to their arguments. I though she had some connection to Deedat (Zakir I believe, is the successor to Deedat’s IPCI Dawah mission).

I thought so. MuslimWoman has absolutely no intellectual will of her own- I bet she just cuts and pasted what she reads, occasionally intersplicing words of her own.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut- I appreciate it.

I bet MuslimWoman isn’t able to support her positions in a debate- that’s why she has to cut and paste from a demogague like Zakir Naik. Even Zakir cannot support himself well- what does that say about her?

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/peace

Are the media “brainwashing” and spreading “propaganda” or being truthful?

Media normally never miss any chance to ridicule Islam / Quran/ Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) .

Can u imagine a Muslim youth kills several students & teacher or a Muslim killed his mom & family members & media is not mentioning his religion ??? But when a Christian does this horrible crime , Press does not bash Bible or Christianity.

It’s a normal characteristics of so-called free media . So , when CNN or other media reports like that Fast growing Islam is winning converts in Western world , then really I find it surprising .

May be , journalists conscience force them (rarely ) to tell readers about the Truth . I can guess , it’s very hard for them to admit & tell readers about the fact.

 

[dzheremi]

I had hoped that you would read my post in reply to you last time you brought up this idea that the Western media has some sort of special vendetta against Muslims, but since you are apparently continuing to repeat that lie, here is a link for you to read about why you are wrong: Western media and Islam

I am a little bit confused why you bring this subject up so often, anyway. Is there any lack of anti-Jewish and anti-Christian sentiment in the media outlets of the Islamic countries? Those are often state-owned and run, too, so that is even more incriminating…at least if a newspaper in the USA runs some horrible anti-Muslim story, it can be taken to account by its readership and sponsorship. Who is responsible for the ridiculous lies told about a “Papal-Jewish conspiracy” on Iranian national radio? Nobody. It even happens sometimes in a supposedly secular Muslim-majority country like Turkey! How will you blame the West for this one?

Quit complaining and making blanket statements about something you know nothing about.

 

[chrisse]

Media normally never miss any chance to ridicule Islam / Quran/ Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) .

Can u imagine a Muslim youth kills several students & teacher or a Muslim killed his mom & family members & media is not mentioning his religion ??? But when a Christian does this horrible crime , Press does not bash Bible or Christianity.

It’s a normal characteristics of so-called free media . So , when CNN or other media reports like that Fast growing Islam is winning converts in Western world , then really I find it surprising .

May be , journalists conscience force them (rarely ) to tell readers about the Truth . I can guess , it’s very hard for them to admit & tell readers about the fact.

This is another a Muslim Woman’s debating failures. To her, any Westerner is Christian.

 

[cathopologist]

This is another a Muslim Woman’s debating failures. To her, any Westerner is Christian.

Her idol is conspiracy theorist and Muslim apologetic, Dr Zakir Naik - responsible for brainwashing the weak-minded and stereotyping Westerners and everything non-Islamic. He’s the Lyndon LaRouche of the Islamic world.

 

[scapularkid8]

Where do people get the notion that Islam means “peace”?

Because the word اسلام (Islam) is a form word using the root letters س ل م (sa-la-ma) meaning peace (which is actually the same thing in Hebrew: sha-la-ma, that’s where Shalom comes from, all Semitic languages use root letters to stand for a meaning or idea that they further develop into specific words based on a template).

اسلام means something we don’t really have in English. It’s like “submission” but that has a negative connotation to it in our language. Just imagine the word “peace” and these letters (sa-la-ma) put into the form “islam” means “one entering into peace”/“one who is submerged in peace”.

I’ve been studying Arabic for about two years now I am no expert and not fluent, but I can read and know basic grammar so if there are any questions on meanings I can clarify!!

 

[chrisse]

Because the word اسلام (Islam) is a form word using the root letters س ل م (sa-la-ma) meaning peace (which is actually the same thing in Hebrew: sha-la-ma, that’s where Shalom comes from, all Semitic languages use root letters to stand for a meaning or idea that they further develop into specific words based on a template).

اسلام means something we don’t really have in English. It’s like “submission” but that has a negative connotation to it in our language. Just imagine the word “peace” and these letters (sa-la-ma) put into the form “islam” means “one entering into peace”/“one who is submerged in peace”.

I’ve been studying Arabic for about two years now I am no expert and not fluent, but I can read and know basic grammar so if there are any questions on meanings I can clarify!!

Here’s an explanation to help you with your grammer. Islam means submission.

The concept of islam means peace really only started with Maudadi and Qutb in the 1930s. (The link seems like a nice introductory piece on their thoughts). However, what they call “peace” is the whole world living under the islamic moral system.

 

[planten]

Here’s an explanation to help you with your grammer. Islam means submission.

The concept of islam means peace really only started with Maudadi and Qutb in the 1930s. (The link seems like a nice introductory piece on their thoughts). However, what they call “peace” is the whole world living under the islamic moral system.

**chrisse, you have given a foul article to explain Islam and Peace, written by some foolish political writer. That article was totally anti Islam. the writer had forgotten to mention the Christian Crusades who had gone to Jarusalem and killed many christians there not knowing they were christian people of thier own faith. How barbaric and foolish of them christian war mongers !!

I did not read the article about Maudoodi and Qutub because I do not believe in their philosophy of Jihad.

The German Poet Philosopher Johann Wolfgang Goethe wrote that Islam means submission to God. See below:

Narrisch das Jeder in Seinem falle,
Seine besondere meinung Priesst.

Wenn Islam Gott ergieben Heisst,
In Islam Lieben und sterben wir alle.**

Transaltion:

It is foolish that every one praise his own opinion
(By his own mouth).

If Islam means submission to God,
Then we all live and die as Muslims.

What a great honest man (Goethe) who says that he submits to God and he is also a Muslim in the sense of the word Islam. (Otherwise we know that he was a good christian.).
.