Ask an Anglican/Episcopalian

[GKC]

Respectfully, having spent 25 years in the Episcopal church; and having a seminary degree from Nashotah House, I stand by my statement. The Articles of Religion list two. The Book of Common Prayer (1979) is nuanced enough that both 2 and 7 are acceptable answers.

And even those who use the 1928 Book have no problem affirming 7. Two Dominical, five in addition.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Indeed

Been a busy morning here, I see.

GKC

 

[David_Zampino]

I feel reluctant to muddy a wonderful “Q and A” thread by putting in my (RC) opinion. On the other hand, it seems fair to reframe the question. Isn’t it right to identify the TEC as mostly (with exceptions) on the Pro Choice side, rather than on the Pro Life side? Even if the TEC has not officially taken a position on a specific legislation, isn’t it true that TEC departments - I am thinking of youth, and women’s programs - have more or less promoted the pro choice position? Individual Episcopalians can be prolife, but isn’t it true that the TEC itself does not in any way directly promote legislation to make abortion illegal? Isn’t it fair to say the TEC supports the status quo on abortion, whereas the RCC opposes it?

Yes, sadly, this is the case – and has been the case for decades. There does exist, however, the organization “NOEL” – “National Organization of Episcopalians for Life”. But the denomination as a whole is aligned with the “Pro-Choice” message. In 2009, the Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School in MA (a female “priest”) made the following statement:

***These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing – who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes — in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You’re engaged in holy work.***

Without denigrating the very valuable patrimony of historic Anglicanism (which, as my friend GKC knows, I value highly) the Episcopal church in the United States (and most of 1st world Anglicanism – 3rd world Anglicanism is VERY different) has taken the radical leftist position on virtually every social “issue” imaginable since the 1960’s. And the fruit that has been borne of those positions is schism within the tradition.

 

[GKC]

But indeed you muddy the water anyways.

I am glad you actually posted this. The Church does NOT support abortion as a means of birth control, sex selection…etc (what was stated before). TEC does not believe abortion is moral. There are extreme medical cases that may cause for such action and TEC tells the individual to examine their conscience before doing so. You have Catholics that are pro-choice.

It is possible that folks get confused on that subject by the varying opinions varying Episcopalians might express. As in the reference that the Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School at Cambridge made, a few years ago, to abortion as a sacrament. Not original with her, to be sure, but likely to muddy the waters.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

Yes it would. What I’m speaking about is many Protestants today will look at their theology through a filter of anti-Catholicism. An example would be our faith is about a “relationship” with Jesus, not a relationship with a “religion” or “church”. But if you look at both Luther and Calvin’s teachings, they both say there is no faith without being connected to a church.

**Another example would be Mary. Most Protestants think it anathema to mention her because “the Catholics worship her” (I know “honor” not worship…). **But they miss out on a great example of a family as well as a fullness of faith, particularly for those whose earthly mothers weren’t the best example. They miss out because their theology begins “where the Catholic church ends”. That’s all.

Again, error should be corrected.

PAX

I quite know what you mean. I’ve seen, among Roman Catholics, the same thing in reverse: that is, RC groups who make Mary the theme of all their activities, and look down on anyone who objects as being “protestant”.

 

[jimkhong]

Let me try to explain it like this if I may. My sister-in-law is a cradle Catholic. She attends Mass every Sunday and take Holy Eucharist and all. I would not call her devout but faithful nonetheless. She married outside the Church, is pro-choice, for gay matrimony and believes the Church so bless such, etc…etc. Catholicism is not immune to the “liberal” sect either. Out of Catholic voters in ND, only 23% supported a state bill to keep marriage between a man and a woman.

It is rather different in the Catholic church, in that there is still an acceptance of Church authority at least ostensibly, even if not all doctrines are being followed.

In the Anglican communion, there are different authorities, with each church being autonomous to set its own rules. Anglicans have the Church of Kenya, for instance whereas the Catholics have the Catholic Church in Kenya. Very different ecclesiology, if not just church polity.

So, the strain would be when the very autonomous Church of Kenya decides that it could not determine which priest from TEC has been ordained by a bishop whose validity is suspect to Kenyan Anglicans (gay and/or woman) and so choose not accept any TEC priest. I believe this is now being discussed in some quarters. The fact that TEC send three times as many bishops to the Lambeth Conference as the Church of Kenya despite have one third the membership does not help.

For Catholics, even if there are differences in opinion, we are (maybe the correct word here is ‘conditioned’ ) to defer to Rome. Those few that broke away, post 1054, post Trent, like PNCC, SSPX, Utrecht Union are still relatively small minorities.

I guess I can put this down to differences in ecclesiology and sense of communion. This strain in the Anglican Communion in the last four decades has, disappointingly, not been repaired at the Lambeth Conferences. We in the Catholic church will watch the developments carefully as we experiment with our own concept of inculturation which we hope do not lead to similar strains if we were to manage it carefully.

 

[GKC]

Yes, sadly, this is the case – and has been the case for decades. There does exist, however, the organization “NOEL” – “National Organization of Episcopalians for Life”. But the denomination as a whole is aligned with the “Pro-Choice” message. In 2009, the Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School in MA (a female “priest”) made the following statement:

***These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing – who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes — in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You’re engaged in holy work.***

Without denigrating the very valuable patrimony of historic Anglicanism (which, as my friend GKC knows, I value highly) the Episcopal church in the United States (and most of 1st world Anglicanism – 3rd world Anglicanism is VERY different) has taken the radical leftist position on virtually every social “issue” imaginable since the 1960’s. And the fruit that has been borne of those positions is schism within the tradition.

Your good friend GKC knows it full well. And could have spared himself posting his previous post, if he had just checked the thread one more time first. You preceded and expanded upon my comment.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for the explanation. The Anglican idea of being in communion is still something I cannot understand. **I guess it is sufficiently different from the Catholic concept. **Some Anglicans I have discussed this with, conversely, could not understand a Catholic’s exclusion of other Christians from communion on the basis of differences in faith. For instance, the differences between ELCA and TEC would have precluded Catholic participation (if the Catholics had been a party) in such a communion as the differences between ELCA and TEC (though narrowing) are still wide.

The Catholic view and the Anglican view of “full communion” are definitely different; although from the p.o.v. of many Orthodox they are rather similar. (Plus, I’ve encountered many Catholics who were shocked that an Orthodox priest would not give them communion.)

 

[jimkhong]

(Plus, I’ve encountered many Catholics who were shocked that an Orthodox priest would not give them communion.)

Eastern or Latin?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Been a busy morning here, I see.

GKC

Started last night lol. It is good though that questions are asked.

Yes, sadly, this is the case – and has been the case for decades. There does exist, however, the organization “NOEL” – “National Organization of Episcopalians for Life”. But the denomination as a whole is aligned with the “Pro-Choice” message. In 2009, the Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School in MA (a female “priest”) made the following statement:

***These are the two things I want you, please, to remember – abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Let me hear you say it: abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

I want to thank all of you who protect this blessing – who do this work every day: the health care providers, doctors, nurses, technicians, receptionists, who put your lives on the line to care for others (you are heroes — in my eyes, you are saints); the escorts and the activists; the lobbyists and the clinic defenders; all of you. You’re engaged in holy work.***

Without denigrating the very valuable patrimony of historic Anglicanism (which, as my friend GKC knows, I value highly) the Episcopal church in the United States (and most of 1st world Anglicanism – 3rd world Anglicanism is VERY different) has taken the radical leftist position on virtually every social “issue” imaginable since the 1960’s. And the fruit that has been borne of those positions is schism within the tradition.

NOEL is a wonderful thing! Sadly some “preach” from the pulpit for their own desires. I have heard Catholic priest say they are in favor of a woman’s right to choose and a Baptist preacher say that if someone has an abortion they should be put to death.

Abortion is a hard pill to swallow and I pray we find a way to move away from it.

It is possible that folks get confused on that subject by the varying opinions varying Episcopalians might express. As in the reference that the Dean of the Episcopal Divinity School at Cambridge made, a few years ago, to abortion as a sacrament. Not original with her, to be sure, but likely to muddy the waters.

GKC

Right. The Dean expressed her opinion as I have heard opinions from many other denominations pro choice as well. You know what they say about opinions.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J
(Plus, I’ve encountered many Catholics who were shocked that an Orthodox priest would not give them communion.)
Eastern or Latin?

Eastern Catholics *and *Latin Catholics.

 

[GKC]

Started last night lol. It is good though that questions are asked.

But I always feel that a poster, receiving a reply to a question, will possibly assume that it is the answer. Understanding Anglicanism is not that simple. Motley, them Anglicans (first use in this thread).

GKC

 

[aidanbradypop]

But I always feel that a poster, receiving a reply to a question, will possibly assume that it is the answer. Understanding Anglicanism is not that simple. Motley, them Anglicans (first use in this thread).

GKC

lol @ motley

I try to give the stance of TEC and then if someone ask for my personal opinion I will gladly give it.

The RCC has their doctrines but when you ask many Catholics their belief…you tend to get different ones. The same could be said with any Church or denomination.

 

[jimkhong]

Eastern Catholics *and *Latin Catholics.

I can understand Eastern Catholics getting confused, like a Latin Catholic attending an Anglo-Catholic mass (though the Anglican priest is normally flattered enough and will not deny communion) but Latin Catholics should find Eastern DLs to be sufficiently different to ask. Unless they did not know the Latin rite mass well enough to know the difference

 

[EphelDuath]

Liturgy questions here

1. (For Anglicans) Do any parishes still use the 1662 BCP, or has “Common Worship” overtaken it completely?
2. Why is the Book of Common Prayer so much shorter than Catholic ritual books? The BCP has everything an Anglican/Episcopalian priest needs for all of the sacraments and Divine Office, which is thoroughly incomprehensible to me considering it’s typically about the same size as the Bible. In the Roman rite, the Divine Office is four fat books, the Missal about 1,500 pages (which doesn’t even include the Lectionary readings), and all of the other sacraments have their own ritual books that vary in size (or are combined into a Ritual/Pontifical which is very thick indeed). What’s up with that?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

The Episcopal Church has two Sacraments. Baptism and Holy Communion are the two. Matrimony is a sacramental rite.

What is a ‘sacramental rite?’

 

[GKC]

Liturgy questions here

1. (For Anglicans) Do any parishes still use the 1662 BCP, or has “Common Worship” overtaken it completely?
2. Why is the Book of Common Prayer so much shorter than Catholic ritual books? The BCP has everything an Anglican/Episcopalian priest needs for all of the sacraments and Divine Office, which is thoroughly incomprehensible to me considering it’s typically about the same size as the Bible. In the Roman rite, the Divine Office is four fat books, the Missal about 1,500 pages (which doesn’t even include the Lectionary readings), and all of the other sacraments have their own ritual books that vary in size (or are combined into a Ritual/Pontifical which is very thick indeed). What’s up with that?

1662/Common Worship is centered on the Church of England. While I have attended services in the US at which 1662 was used, neither it nor Common Worship are the standard book for TEC or any other Anglican jurisdiction here, AFAIK. OTOH, I have also attended services from the 1549, 1559, and the Anglican Missal.

GKC

 

[GKC]

What is a ‘sacramental rite?’

It;s what some Anglicans, who try to fit the distinctions of the XXXIX Articles into their sacramental understanding, call the sacraments other than those of Baptism and the Eucharist.

GKC

 

[GKC]

lol @ motley

I try to give the stance of TEC and then if someone ask for my personal opinion I will gladly give it.

The RCC has their doctrines but when you ask many Catholics their belief…you tend to get different ones. The same could be said with any Church or denomination.

Anglicanism stands in a class of its own, IMO.

GKC

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

My sister-in-law is a cradle Catholic. She attends Mass every Sunday and take Holy Eucharist and all. I would not call her devout but faithful nonetheless. She married outside the Church, is pro-choice, for gay matrimony and believes the Church so bless such, etc…etc. Catholicism is not immune to the “liberal” sect either. Out of Catholic voters in ND, only 23% supported a state bill to keep marriage between a man and a woman

Catholics are not pro-choice, are not for homosexual ‘marriage,’ etc. There are a lot of Protestants who go to Mass in Catholic churches on Sunday. Your sister-in-law appears to be one of them.

There are no liberal sects in the Catholic Church. There are many liberals in the Church, to be sure, and many heretics pretending to be Catholics.