Ask an atheist anything! (seriously, anything)

[RaisedCatholic]

And I think I can say with some degree of confidence that the percentage of Christians who would say that there is a small percentage of doubt in their mind would be the opposite of that figure. Which is a testament to faith I guess.

I think that is where a true genuine Christian conversion, which results from the work of the Holy Spirit, is different than converting to other worldviews. It is difficult to explain in words, except that unlike other worldviews where the individual “decided” to believe in it, the converted Christian didn’t make the decision him/herself. It is almost like feeling Someone else changing everything about you and everything you believe on the inside. You don’t have any control of it, nor do want to, because the transformation is unlike anything else you have ever experienced. At least that is how it was for me. For those Christians who have doubts, perhaps they have never experienced this, and for those who abandon the faith, I question if they really were truly converted at all.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

And I think I can say with some degree of confidence that the percentage of Christians who would say that there is a small percentage of doubt in their mind would be the opposite of that figure. Which is a testament to faith I guess.

I think that is where a true genuine Christian conversion, which results from the work of the Holy Spirit, is different than converting to other worldviews.

I can’t say I ever believed. I would have told you I did but that was because I had been brought up to believe. And then I gradually realised that various aspects of what I was expected to accept just didn’t ring true. So it was gradually chipped away.

If you have this genuine conversion through the Holy Spirit then isn’t there some process that you then have to go through to accept all the various beliefs associated with this conversion?

If I had had that conversion, then some aspects of Christianity would still not have been credible. I might well have ended up a deist. So how do you become a Christian and then justify everything that goes with it? Is it the case that ‘I am now a Christian so therefore everything associated with it must be true’.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

If you have this genuine conversion through the Holy Spirit then isn’t there some process that you then have to go through to accept all the various beliefs associated with this conversion?

If I had had that conversion, then some aspects of Christianity would still not have been credible. I might well have ended up a deist. So how do you become a Christian and then justify everything that goes with it? Is it the case that ‘I am now a Christian so therefore everything associated with it must be true

Interesting question! For me, knowing God results in knowing it is all true. God exists, God has revealed things to us, we live according to that revelation. The only effort I expend is in making sure my ego stays in check.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

It’s authorative for you because it’s the word of God.

Cool. But we’re talking about atheists, not me. It’s authority is what obligates me. They do not share the belief in that obligation or its source.

So please don’t tell me I can’t use biblical quotes

You can obviously quote what you like. However, an atheist derives no moral obligations from scripture. An atheist has no moral imperatives. He has impulses. And nowhere in what you said is there given a source of obligation.

Anyway, debating atheism got old in 2014 and I’ve seen a few attempt to create a system of universal morality but it always ignores that an atheist is just an atomic unit. Essentially they try to reinvent the wheel of religion for the atheist. It’s all very silly, imo.

 

[Neithan]

There has to at least be final impenitence, so an unpardonable sin must be involved somehow.

 

[Neithan]

Thank you for expressing remorse on behalf of atheists for their shameful behaviour. We all behave poorly sometimes. Of course, if atheism is true, we don’t really have any grounds for admonition.

 

[Crocus]

Well, the Bible tells me so, the Church tells me so, and there are blessed days when I have an inkling of an indescribable presence by my side, so I trust it is true.

This simple little sentence is soooo “red.”

Christians will immediately recognize it as the touch of God, surrounding them and joining them all together. Even just a momentary taste of that touch of God serves to strengthen in consolation against any and all life’s difficulties.

 

[casslean]

There is no debate among biological/medical scientists that life begins at conception. The rest are fair enough though.

I probably should have used the word “Personhood” rather than life, as that’s really what the issue comes down to.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

It’s authorative for you because it’s the word of God.

Cool. But we’re talking about atheists, not me. It’s authority is what obligates me. They do not share the belief in that obligation or its source.

So please don’t tell me I can’t use biblical quotes

You can obviously quote what you like. However, an atheist derives no moral obligations from scripture. An atheist has no moral imperatives. He has impulses. And nowhere in what you said is there given a source of obligation.

Do I want to live in a world where people steal my goods? Do I want to live in a world where they can assault me for no reason? Do I want to live in a world where people lie to me constantly?

Obviously not.

Now it doesn’t take a Rhodes Scholar to join the dots here and conclude that if we all want to live in a world where we can all get along (and I can get along) without fear of robbery or assault etc then we all have to play our part.

Unless I am a psychopath and literally don’t care about people’s well being then I have to play my part. I can’t expect people to treat me well if I treat them badly. And we feel that this is the right way to act (there’s a long explanation for this involving evolutionary psychology but we’ll pass on that).

So we all (mostly) have an inbuilt desire to not do the wrong thing. You might call it a God-given conscience and I would post you endless articles on said evolutionary psychology as my reason. But we both feel it whatever the reason.

So no atheist lives just as a conglomeration of matter and electrical impulses. We live within the world not apart from it. We have relationships and desires and there are people we love and we have feelings for them just as everyone else. It’s nonsensical to suggest otherwise.

And because we are part of the world we are obliged to play our part within it. So we have to follow the rules as well. You would claim that they are God-given. And I’m fine with that. But they work as well. Why would God give you rules that wouldn’t? And as I said earlier, the rules were in place a very long time indeed before Christianity arrived. And that’s because anyone who thinks enough about how we should live reaches the same conclusion.

I’d like to think that you would to.

So there is the imperative. There is the ‘should’ and ‘aught’. We should treat each other as we’d like to be treated otherwise it becomes a world where no-one would want to live.

 

[TheBomb.Com]

How has your day been?

 

[Wozza]

How has your day been?

Me? Pretty good.

 

[Pattylt]

we don’t really have any grounds for admonition.

Why not? Aren’t we all still humans sharing this planet and having to live together? Rude behavior is still rude whether there is a God or not. We still have cultural expectations. Or did you mean something else? Sorry, I often don’t get peoples points.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

And because we are part of the world we are obliged to play our part within it.

Sorry dude, atheists have no source for moral obligations. They do have a source of physical and social deterrence for behaviors they find inconvenient. That is what you are describing.

And as I said earlier, the rules were in place a very long time indeed before Christianity arrived

As St. Paul said, the law of God is written on their hearts. Read the first section of Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. I’m well aware laws existed before the coming of our Lord.

I’m also aware that an atheist would like to remain in a social living environment for it’s many benefits. I’m just saying those alone are not moral obligations for you, they are survival imperatives for social living. As atheists, you are co-opting religious language that has nothing to do with your worldview because you were raised in an environment that is not built on your worldview…and you like much of what it produced and have no desire to lose it, some of which you have and much of which you will as atheism increases (you ain’t seen nothing yet).

 

[PickyPicky]

I can’t think of one that I’ve talked to in the last few years of forum life that has admitted as such. I guess that many of them must. It’s human nature to have some doubt. But it’s human nature generally to avoid admitting to that. Something of a contradiction.

Although Mother Theresa comes to mind. I don’t admire the woman but I have to admit I admired her honesty

Yes, this is perhaps not a place where Christians could expose anything like a chink in the armour.

Here are two who apparently think differently (although they will not be favourites of posters here):

The fact is that all the great spiritual models of the ages before us found themselves, at one point or another, plunged into doubt, into darkness, into the certainty of uncertainty. Augustine, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, John the Baptist, Thomas, Peter, one after another of them all wondered, and wavered, and believed beyond belief

https://brentwoodcsj.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Be-grateful-for-doubt.pdf

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

And because we are part of the world we are obliged to play our part within it.

Sorry dude, atheists have no source for moral obligations. They do have a source of physical and social deterrence for behaviors they find inconvenient. That is what you are describing…

They are not just deterrence. They are positive incentives to live a good and rewarding life. I cannot for the life of me imagine that you don’t find your ‘moral obligations’, determined by God, to be worthy in their own right.

So if you want to do the right thing because you are morally obliged by God and I want to do the right thing because it is obvious to me that it is the right thing to do then I see no problem.

If you want to say that I have no source for my obligations then you are right if you mean that source to be God. But why do you think that everyone who didn’t believe in God many thousands of years before Christ felt equally obliged to ‘follow the rules’? Why do you think that half the planet now will ‘follow the rules’ when God is not their source?

What would happen to you if you woke up tomorrow and some medical problem meant you had no concept of God? Do you steal and lie and assault people because you now have no God-given moral obligation? How would you respond to someone who asked why shoud you try to do the right thing?

And that last question is not hypothetical. I’d like to know.

 

[Wozza]

As atheists, you are co-opting religious language…

I missed this bit.

Yes, it is a rule that almost all religions encompass. But it is a part of almost every ethical system you’d care to mention. It most certainly doesn’t belong to Christianity and there is nothing that ties it specifically to a belief in a god. So to say that I am co-opting religious language is not correct.

You, on behalf of any religion and especially on behalf of Christianity, do not get to claim it as your own. It is universally held and probably has been ever since the first societies were formed. In fact, the first societies would not have formed unless it was patently obvious to everyone that this was the correct way to live life.

 

[QwertyGirl]

1 - Life begins at conception
2 - Human nature is essentially good
3 - There are no aliens that have landed on Earth
4 - There is an afterlife
5 - Racism is an entirely learned behaviour
6 - Homosexuality is not a choice, but is an innate, immutable characteristic
7 - We have a social obligation to help those less fortunate than ourselves

Thank you for sharing your list. I am assuming these are things you believe. Do you feel like you could wake up tomorrow and just decide to no longer believe these things, and that you would, from that point on, no longer believe them? Just as easy as that?

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

They are positive incentives to live a good and rewarding life.

Which cannot of themselves become moral obligations in the mind of the honest atheist because he is not beholden to anything but his own will. Stop trying to conflate sensible/useful with moral…unless you’re having second thoughts about there not being a God. It sounds ridiculous.

But why do you think that everyone who didn’t believe in God many thousands of years before Christ felt equally obliged to ‘follow the rules’?

Atheism on the scale you have today is unheard of and today’s atheists are fish born in the sea of religiosity that preceded them. Thousands of years ago they were obeying God (Israel, when they weren’t chasing idols) or their idols (everyone not Israel) and governments, much like today. Their obligation was from their deity and their imperative to obey was from the government enforcing the decrees of said deity, real or imagined. Those whose deities were imagined were following the light of conscience and reason that St. Paul described.

However, and for the last time, because atheism removes the possibility of anything greater than the creature, there is nothing greater to which he can be morally obligated. There is no basis for a universal moral code for atheists. The atheist has no moral argument against eugenics, euthanasia, abortion, slavery, racism, misogyny/misandry, etc. It has arguments for how each individual would like to see society run in a way that best elevates his own interests/alleviates his fears/operates in tandem with his preconceived notions of a “good society” based on upbringing.

The arguments you are bringing to this discussion do not align with a worldview wherein you are an accident of nature, cast adrift in space, hoping to convince those with power greater than you that they shouldn’t take all you have and enslave you or kill you because you wouldn’t like it and using religious teachings to bolster his arguments, not realizing that those religious arguments only bear weight by virtue of the deity believed to have given them and to be undergirding them.

If there is no God, religion is meaningless and all it teaches are lies and the rich man who bribes government officials, pays slave wages to his employees, kidnaps women for his harem and does whatever else he pleases is doing nothing wrong because there is no wrong. It’s just that you don’t like it because you aren’t him, you aren’t going to be him and you once heard this story from religious (Christian) people about how these things you don’t want happening to you are “immoral”. This is the world the atheist can look forward to. Particularly if there is a world without Christianity (which there won’t be, lucky you).

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

Why do you think that half the planet now will ‘follow the rules’ when God is not their source?

They are operating on fumes. Strength is all that will matter. (Would matter, you aren’t actually going to have a godless world, especially since the atheist is extremely poor at replenishing the population)

What would happen to you if you woke up tomorrow and some medical problem meant you had no concept of God? Do you steal and lie and assault people because you now have no God-given moral obligation? How would you respond to someone who asked why shoud you try to do the right thing?

No conception of God or no God? Are you asking if the moral teachings I received in my youth would still hold as they did when I was an atheist. Precluding some sort of brain damage, highly likely. Those teachings were presented as moral in nature, but the idea of morality is anathema to any rational view of an atheistic universe. Rationally, with no conception of God in a universe where there is no God to write his law on my heart, I’m going to do anything that benefits me and I can get away with that doesn’t make my life worse. Anything less would be irrational. Sometimes that would be social behavior and at others antisocial behavior, but always guided my perception of my best interests.

 

[Wozza]

Rationally, with no conception of God in a universe where there is no God to write his law on my heart, I’m going to do anything that benefits me and I can get away with that doesn’t make my life worse.

I hope that’s the most depressing thing I read this week. I’d hate to think there may be something worse.