Ask Whatever You Will, and It Shall Be Done for You. Really?

[BobCatholic]

You can only ask for things that are in conformance with God’s will.

Not in God’s will? Answer is no. No matter how much you beg. Can’t change God’s mind.

 

[Cathoholic]

RE: Ask ANYTHING in My name and it will be given to you.

I think we should not to look at prayer as merely asking for things. Nobody here is suggesting this, but there may be other readers (lurkers) who need this principle clarified.

There are different senses to “anything”. There is also a timing aspect. There is also a pride aspect.

If God made converts of all people who I asked Him to convert, IMMEDIATELY (so that I could see this occur), I guarantee it would be a curse against ME (see how I, ME, MYSELF, can just get these people to convert—or whatever else you may ask for that you think is a worthy request). It would soon be a source of pride.

Others would use this “anything” on THEIR TIMING as mere “magic”. We don’t want our prayer reduced down to the “good magic”, or the “acceptable incantations”.

Prayer is not “God’s wishing well” for us.

---

A Proper Order of Prayer is Useful

Sometimes the acronym ACTS is told us about the proper order of prayer.

A—Adoration—worshiping God just because he is God.
C—Contrition—I am sorry for my sins.
T—Thanksgiving.
S—Supplication—Please Lord, if it is consistent with YOUR will, may I have . . .

---

Here is what has been my experience (and some of the spiritual reflections of those) . . . .

• Prayer “results” very rapid
• Lots of prayer required to see what I asked for
• Timing issues
• Not asking in conformity with God’s will (or possibly even more timing issues)
• Not praying for something

Rapid
I have had things I have asked for occur very rapidly.

Lots of Prayer Required
But other times I need to pray A LOT. I think God is trying to draw that out of me in (at least some of) those instances. Let’s listen to an a fortiori discourse (a “how much more” example) by our Lord Jesus . . .

LUKE 18:1-8 1 And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; 3 and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Vindicate me against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

I guarantee that the above situation was not “speedily” enough resolved for this woman. And sometimes it is not “speedily” enough for us either. But it is not our call is it?

Timing Issues
Other times less frequent prayers are answered in God’s timing. This may be relatively rapid.

MARK 8:22-26 22 And they came to Beth-saida. And some people brought to him a blind man, and begged him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the village; and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands upon him, he asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24 And he looked up and said, “I see men; but they look like trees, walking.” 25 Then again he laid his hands upon his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and saw everything clearly. 26 And he sent him away to his home, saying, “Do not even enter the village.”

Sometimes Jesus waits briefly to manifest God’s glory. Here is a couple of day delay . . .

JOHN 11:14-15 14 Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead; 15 and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Of course Jesus went on to raise Lazarus from the dead.

Continued . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Continued from last post . . . .

Timing issues (continued)
Jesus sometimes waits a LONG time to further manifest God’s glory. It would be safe to assume that the blind man in John 9 and his parents prayed for his sight. But this did not occur . . . .immediately. This man had to wait years (until adulthood). And even then, he still had to go “wash in the Pool of Siloam”.

JOHN 9:1-7 1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. 4 We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6 As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man’s eyes with the clay, 7 saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.

Recall at the Final Judgment we will all see these things manifest in their glory.

Other times God does NOT apparently grant me my supplication.

I can only assume it was for my best interests that God did not give me “anything” in this sense. The other thing, there is free will involved (i.e. if I pray for the conversion of a sinner, and by his/her free will, he/she rejects God’s advances, this conversion isn’t going to occur—at least on MY timing).

Or it may be occurring in ways that I cannot see (to protect me from pride or some other good reason)

In Luke 11, Jesus tells us . . . .

LUKE 11:11-13 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

From this it is easy to ALSO surmise . . .

(Easy To Surmise from) LUKE 11:11-13 What father among you, if his son asks for a serpent, will give it to him? Will an earthly dad give his son/daughter a serpent just because his son/daughter asks for one? No of course not! Or if he asks for a scorpion, will dad give him a scorpion? No!

If an earthly dad would not give his asking kid a scorpion, rest assured, if we are not asking for God’s will, we will not get it either . . . for our own good.

Not Praying?
Sometimes I catch myself carping against a politician or whoever or a situation. Then by grace I glimpse myself here and realize I haven’t even prayed for this person (or situation)! Then humiliated by God revealing my own weaknesses to me, I will try to offer at least a brief prayer for this or these persons or situations (before I go back to my complaining).

The Epistle of James tells us there are aspects of life where “We have not, because we ask not”.

Are we praying for the things we and others need? Or do we skip that to pray for the team we want to win (I know. I’ve done it myself).

JAMES 4:2b You do not have, because you do not ask.

---

In Conclusion
If as St. Paul says, we don’t even know how to pray as we ought (Romans 8:26), then perhaps sometimes we are not asking for the right thing (What! No “ship loaded with gold” coming into the harbor for me God??!!), or maybe we do not take into consideration God’s timing or even our own (and others) free will and the “pride factor”.

Or maybe we need to get right with God (i.e. frequent the Sacraments and especially go to Confession), then try praying again.

JAMES 5:16b . . . . For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

There is a primary sense of James 5:16 that concerns Jesus in and through the presbyter or Priest, but there is a secondary meaning for us too. A universal call to holiness and righteousness by the grace of God through the work of Jesus our Lord and Savior.

 

[BobCatholic]

LUKE 18:1-8 1 And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; 3 and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Vindicate me against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

Pay attention to the red part of the verse.

If God will act quickly, then there is no need to keep praying over and over and over and over and over.

Ask. If you don’t get it, game over, it was not God’s will. Can’t change God’s mind.

JOHN 9:1-7 1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. 4 We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” 6 As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man’s eyes with the clay, 7 saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.

Clearly the poor man prayed a long time to get his sight, and God delayed a long time to give it to him. Contradicting Luke 18 above.

LUKE 11:11-13 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Pay attention to the part in red. This is only about asking God for the gift of the Holy Spirit, not anything else. That was the context.

JAMES 4:2b You do not have, because you do not ask.

Because if someone got a “no” clearly they’re not going to change God’s mind.

JAMES 5:16b . . . . For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

That’s because saints pray in accordance to God’s will.

“St. Benedict, pray for me. Ask the Lord to do a grave evil to my enemy.” St. Benedict won’t pray for you. This is not in God’s will, game over.

“St. Benedict, pray for me. Ask the Lord to give me the grace to keep going.” This is in God’s will so St. Benedict will pray for you, and the prayer will avail much.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

A key principle of interpreting Scripture is context. One cannot divorce one passage from the rest of the Scripture and base their interpretation on that. Thus one cannot interpret “Ask whatever you will and it shall be done for you” without taking into account " And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to His will he hears us" 1 John 5:14. That part about our prayer being in accordance with His will is a biggie.

 

[BobCatholic]

A key principle of interpreting Scripture is context. One cannot divorce one passage from the rest of the Scripture and base their interpretation on that. Thus one cannot interpret “Ask whatever you will and it shall be done for you” without taking into account " And this is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything according to His will he hears us" 1 John 5:14. That part about our prayer being in accordance with His will is a biggie.

And don’t forget Christ’s prayer in the Garden of Gethsamane: “Not my will, but yours be done”

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic. In addressing my posts you said:

Ask. If you don’t get it, game over, it was not God’s will. Can’t change God’s mind.

BobCatholic. Please go back and re-read my posts.

I said NOTHING about our prayer, “changing God’s mind.”

I DID say perhaps God is trying to draw out of us MORE PRAYER.

But other times I need to pray A LOT. I think God is trying to draw that out of me in (at least some of) those instances.

---

You also said . . .

Clearly the poor man prayed a long time to get his sight, and God delayed a long time to give it to him. Contradicting Luke 18 above.

No contradictions in the proper sense in Scripture BobCatholic. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself, He is not the author of confusion.

You looked at my quote of James 5 saying . . .

Quote:
JAMES 5:16b . . . . For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

That’s because saints pray in accordance to God’s will.

Agreed BobCatholic. But notice ALSO Saints have “continual prayer” and not “game over”.

As for your comments on what “speedily” is and isn’t, you must not have read where I specifically said . . . .

I guarantee that the above situation was not “speedily” enough resolved for this woman. And sometimes it is not “speedily” enough for us either. But it is not our call is it?

I also explicitly said;

Other times God does NOT apparently grant me my supplication.

Your point about not persisting in prayer because you think it is “game over” and citing Luke 18, I will disagree with BobCatholic.

NOT LUKE 18:1-5 (Phantom Verse) 1 And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought to **forget about always to pray and not lose heart because its game over. **2 He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; 3 and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Vindicate me against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused; but afterward he said to this woman, look it is “game over”. So I am not going to vindicate this person. 5 yet despite this widow bothering me, I will reassert to her game over”.

See CCC below with bold and ul mine . . .

CCC 2573b . . . . the spiritual tradition of the Church has retained the symbol of prayer as a battle of faith and as the triumph of perseverance.18

(Footnote 18 in CCC 2573 above alludes to Luke 18:1-8)

CCC 2613 Three principal parables on prayer are transmitted to us by St. Luke:

• The first, "the importunate friend,"75 invites us to urgent prayer: “Knock, and it will be opened to you.” To the one who prays like this, the heavenly Father will “give whatever he needs,” and above all the Holy Spirit who contains all gifts.
• The second, “the importunate widow,"76 is centered on one of the qualities of prayer: it is necessary to pray always without ceasing and with the *patience *of faith. "And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”
• The third parable, "the Pharisee and the tax collector,"77 concerns the *humility *of the heart that prays. “God, be merciful to me a sinner!” The Church continues to make this prayer its own: Kyrie eleison!

(Footnote 76 in CCC 2613 alludes to Luke 18:1-8, bold and ul mine, italics original)

For readers of this thread, please do not lose heart or give up when your prayers seemingly go unanswered. Persevere in humble prayer in accordance with God’s will, especially when it is most difficult.

St. Monica . . . Pray for us.

 

[ericc]

I bet I’m not the only one that chafes against this verse. What in the universe does Jesus mean by this because at face value, it’s not a true statement. I want to better understand what he means, so please help.

Even when I’ve asked for things that seem to be very good and right, and should be perfectly pleasing to God as far as I can see, no help comes. Explain this verse please in that context.

I’d think this verse has got to be conditional. On the face of it, our wishes will come true, with the proviso that the things asked for are undoubtedly good. But our experiences say it ain’t so. During the 2 world wars, I bet millions asked for the wars to end. They did end. As some forumers may say, all in good time. But for some, timing is everything. If help asked for didn’t arrive in time, it might just well as never been asked.

My personal believe is that what we asked for must dovetail with God’s master plan. If it doesn’t, our prayers are heard but the answer is “no”, for the good of you and the good of the world. Because granting our wishes may lead to future consequences yet unknown to us that may derail God’s plan.

 

[BobCatholic]

I said NOTHING about our prayer, “changing God’s mind.”

You strongly implied it. Read on.

I DID say perhaps God is trying to draw out of us MORE PRAYER.

Why?

Are you saying that God purposely, selfishly withholds a good thing because he’s playing that “monkey in the middle” game that kids play, where he takes something and holds it above your head, with you being unable to get it. “You can’t have this unless you beg for a long time to get it, nyaa nyaa”

That paints God as a bully and a sadist, and that’s not who he is. I disagree. God is NOT like that.

No contradictions in the proper sense in Scripture BobCatholic. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict Himself, He is not the author of confusion.

Then explain your message that God will not delay, but here He delayed a long time.
In addition, the woman who was bent over all her life, also had a delay. The woman who touched him to dry up her bleeding, also had a delay.

Agreed BobCatholic. But notice ALSO Saints have “continual prayer” and not “game over”.

They pray in accordance with God’s will, and not against it. The continual prayer is ONLY those prayers in accordance with God’s will.

And sometimes it is not “speedily” enough for us either. But it is not our call is it?

It is our call. We are the temporal, temporary beings. God is eternal.

We cannot wait 200 years for God to say “yes” to our prayers. Such a “yes” is a “no” in reality.

Your point about not persisting in prayer because you think it is “game over” and citing Luke 18, I will disagree with BobCatholic.

How do you define “persisting in prayer”?

1. "if you keep praying, you can change God’s mind and he will say yes because you wore him down (Luke 18).
2. “Pray. If God says no, don’t give up, pray for something else, God won’t say no to all your prayers.”

You seem to be saying 1) I see persevering in prayer as 2) I cannot change God’s mind so I stop praying for the thing he said no to. That’s the “game over” So I pray for something he will say yes to and persevere in prayer that way.

Are you saying I should keep praying for something that God said “no” to?
I ask God to heal my son of his horrible mental disease. God said no. Should I keep praying for God to heal my son? What’s the point? I can’t change his mind. Game over.

above all the Holy Spirit who contains all gifts.

The Holy Spirit does not always contain all gifts, for He does not come with temporal things if it is not the will of God. So the Holy Spirit cannot be truly all gifts.

• The third parable, "the Pharisee and the tax collector,"77 concerns the *humility *of the heart that prays. “God, be merciful to me a sinner!” The Church continues to make this prayer its own: Kyrie eleison![/INDENT]

God said he would be merciful. Asking for God’s mercy is asking for something within his will so the answer is YES. So praying for mercy is always worthwhile and there is no need to change God’s mind.

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic. You said I implied perseverance in prayer . . . . “changes God’s mind” . . . explicitly stating: “You strongly implied it”.

Sorry BobCatholic. I certainly didn’t mean to imply perseverance in prayer “changes God’s mind.”
Let me say it explicitly:

Perseverance in prayer is not “to change God’s mind”.
Brief quick non-persevering prayer is not to “change God’s mind” either BobCatholic.

**Meanwhile, we are still called to perseverance in prayer. **

BobCatholic. Please feel free to go back and re-read my posts.

BobCatholic you also said:

Are you saying that God purposely, selfishly withholds a good thing because he’s playing that “monkey in the middle” game that kids play, where he takes something and holds it above your head, with you being unable to get it. “You can’t have this unless you beg for a long time to get it, nyaa nyaa”

No BobCatholic, I am not saying that. No “monkey in the middle game” and no “nyaa nyaa”. In the words of Charlie Brown . . . “Good Grief!”

Then explain your message that God will not delay, but here He delayed a long time.

I already DID. I explained it Bob. I said . . . .

I guarantee that the above situation was not “speedily” enough resolved for this woman. And sometimes it is not “speedily” enough for us either. But it is not our call is it?

God’s rapid time appropriate to a given situation is not necessarily our timetable.

LUKE 18:7-8a 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily.

Now let’s look at Luke 18:7-8a with the Greek substituted for “speedily”.

LUKE 18:7-8a 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them tachei.

What does tachei mean?

Well it DOES mean “quick” but “quick” appropriate to a given situation.

Cognate: 5034 táxos – swiftness (speed), i.e. done as quickly (speedily) as is appropriate to the particular situation.

(bold mine)

Below with Luke 18:8 substituted to reflect literalness . . .

LUKE 18:7-8a 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them quickly appropriate to a given situation.

That means there are multiple factors to consider.
Factors such as God trying to draw more out of us.
Factors like free will.
Factors like overcoming and protecting us from pride.
Factors like as you said, praying united to God’s will.
Factors that we probably will not even know in this lifetime.

As I said, sometimes it IS God’s will to draw more prayer out of us. Some times there are other factors.

Sometimes it IS GOD’S WILL that we persevere in prayer. It IS God’s will that sometimes we are to pray longer.

Your . . . “pray then if you don’t get what you want then DON’T PERSEVERE IN PRAYER because it must be game over” motif is inappropriate BobCatholic.

• Non-perseverance in prayer does NOT reflect Sacred Scripture.
• Non-perseverance in prayer does NOT reflect the CCC.
• Non-perseverance in prayer does NOT reflect the example of the Saints.

BobCatholic. St. Monica prayed for 17 years for the conversion of one her children, St. Augustine. St. Monica prayed for 30 years for the conversion of her former pagan husband Patricius! This IS what the Church teaches.

St. Monica did not say: “Game over”.

Perseverance in prayer. That is what we are taught. NOT “prayer despair”.

BobCatholic. You said:

Are you saying I should keep praying for something that God said “no” to?
I ask God to heal my son of his horrible mental disease. God said no. Should I keep praying for God to heal my son? What’s the point? I can’t change his mind. Game over.

I am so sorry about your son BobCatholic. Yes you SHOULD keep praying for God to heal him . . . and I will add him to my petitions as well. The point is, you don’t KNOW this prayer goes against God’s will.

God MAY be trying to teach YOU perseverance in prayer (He may not, but MAYBE He is. Such things are quite mysterious). There may be other factors as to why your prayer has not been answered. We just don’t know.

God bless you and your family BobCatholic.

Cathoholic

 

[BobCatholic]

Perseverance in prayer is not “to change God’s mind”.

Then what is the definition of “perseverance in prayer”?

Does it mean “keep praying even though God says no because he will eventually change his mind because we browbeat him into submission?”

God’s rapid time appropriate to a given situation is not necessarily our timetable.

But if he takes 200 years to answer “yes” that’s a “no” in reality since I don’t live 200 years.

As I said, sometimes it IS God’s will to draw more prayer out of us.

OK, so I pray.
God says No.
I’m supposed to keep praying for the same thing God just said No to?

I see two different things wrong with this.

1. It is not accepting God’s will. I thought we are to accept his will.
2. It is us trying to change his mind. We cannot change his mind, even you said that!

It IS God’s will that sometimes we are to pray longer.

Why? I don’t understand this.

Either God says yes or no.

BobCatholic. St. Monica prayed for 17 years for the conversion of one her children, St. Augustine. St. Monica prayed for 30 years for the conversion of her former pagan husband Patricius! This IS what the Church teaches.

This sounds a lot like the “monkey in the middle” game. God withheld his yes for a really long time. Good Grief!

UNLESS St. Monica got a private revelation that if she kept praying…for 17 years…or 30 years…these things would happen.

I am so sorry about your son BobCatholic. Yes you SHOULD keep praying for God to heal him . . .

God said no. How do I know? There was no healing.

It is not his will to heal him. Praying more won’t change his mind. Game over.
I accept God’s will with a broken heart (since I cannot get my son to bond with me)

 

[ynotzap]

We go to God in our needs by prayer and for the needs of others, and in doing so we find ourselves at the feet of Christ. What if in prayer we do find ourselves at the feet of Christ, only to discover the purpose of prayer and our needs is to discover our greatest need for Christ Himself, isn’t that the purpose of our lives, to be united to God who fulfills our greatest need.

 

[Cathoholic]

OK BobCatholic. You said:

Does it mean “keep praying even though God says no because he will eventually change his mind because we browbeat him into submission?”

I think I see why you are focusing on the perseverance in prayer “changing God’s mind” thing.

I think you are looking at Luke 18:1-8 and think I am trying to assert prayer “changes God’s mind” (I am not trying to assert this but I think that you surmise that I am attempting to put this idea forth).

LUKE 18:1-8 1 And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man; 3 and there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Vindicate me against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

But Luke 18:1-8 isn’t meant to teach, “changing God’s mind”.

I didn’t say (or mean to imply) Luke 18:1-8 has to do with “changing God’s mind”.
The verses don’t say (or imply) Luke 18:1-8 has to do with “changing God’s mind”.
The CCC doesn’t say (or imply) Luke 18:1-8 has to do with “changing God’s mind”.
The Saints don’t say (or imply) Luke 18:1-8 has to do with “changing God’s mind”.

You are taking a “parable” and trying to insert an idea into that parable that is not meant to be put forth. That can be an issue with ANY parable. That’s why it is important to listen to the Church.

The verses say the parable is to teach about how we “ought always to pray and not lose heart.” That’s what the passage specifically tells us to take away from this. It is specifically urging us on to perseverance in prayer.

LUKE 18:1 1 And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.

NOT LUKE 18:1 (Phantom Verse) 1 And he told them a parable, to the effect that they ought always to pray to change God’s mind.

If you follow that type of thinking out to its logical conclusion, you end up accusing the Holy Spirit of contradicting Himself!

Clearly the poor man (in John 9:1 etc.) . . . God delayed a long time to give it to him. Contradicting Luke 18 above.

This would be unacceptable Biblical exegesis.

Yes the “judge” . . . “changed his mind” in Luke 18. But the “judge” did not fear God either. This earthly judge had no regard for his fellow man. You and I would agree these verses are not telling us to become atheists and/or disregard our fellow man.

LUKE 18:2 2 He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor regarded man

God likewise does not get worn out either (“wear me out”) in this sense does He?

LUKE 18:5 5 yet because this widow bothers me, I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming.

You and I would both say, the parable is not meant to be teaching such things as no fear of God and no regard for our fellow man.

If The Correct Meaning From the Verses Seems Confusing, Try the CCC

The CCC also had commentary on these specific verses. The CCC had commentary footnoting these specific passages. NONE of the CCC teachings concerned “changing God’s mind”. (This is WHY I was confused as to “WHY” in the world you thought I was “implying” prayer “changed God’s mind”—I wasn’t saying or trying to imply such).

BOTH CCC quotes I cited told us that Luke 18:1-8 concerns perseverance in prayer.

CCC 2573b . . . . the spiritual tradition of the Church has retained the symbol of prayer as a battle of faith and as the triumph of perseverance.

CCC 2613a, c Three principal parables on prayer are transmitted to us by St. Luke . . .
. . . “the importunate widow,” is centered on one of the qualities of prayer:
it is necessary to pray always without ceasing and with the patience of faith.

We have to be careful with how we handle these verses.

Some people get careless and think because in the Resurrection of the Dead, we are “like angels” in respect to the Sacrament of Matrimony that we BECOME Angels (see Matthew 22:30, Luke 20:36, and elsewhere).

You and I know this conclusion would be false.

It might be cute kid-thoughts.
It might make a great movie.
It might even be a question some well-meaning people may ask about.

But you and I both know, most people realize, that people BECOMING angels is mere “Clarence theology”. (See George Bailey, Clarence, and the gang here). It is pure fantasy. We do NOT BECOME angels. You and I both know that.

But the point is, we need to approach these verses with the mind of the Church if we want to extract their intended message.

*Continued . . . *

 

[Cathoholic]

You said things like “how long” and “I don’t understand”.

Well, I don’t know “how long”. And I don’t pretend to fully “understand” such things either.

I do not know the depths of these verses or what God is calling us to (or fully “why?”).

But I do know what these verses DON’T teach.

These verses do NOT teach that we are to blow-off prayer intentions that are in conformity with God’s will.

And it IS God’s will that we become WHOLE isn’t it?

Sickness is in a sense a physical “evil” and “evil” is not God’s will for us. Yet as Pope John Paul II teaches, God can draw good from evil (we cannot but God can).

POPE JOHN PAUL II The true and proper meaning of mercy does not consist only in looking, however penetratingly and compassionately, at moral, physical or material evil: mercy is manifested in its true and proper aspect when it restores to value, promotes and draws good from all the forms of evil existing in the world and in man.

That’s WHY He died for us on Calvary. To give us the opportunity to become “whole” despite our fallen nature. To allow us to be what we were meant to be—whole.

Pray. Pray. Pray. And as Luke 18:1 says, “do not lose heart”.

 

[BobCatholic]

I think I see why you are focusing on the perseverance in prayer “changing God’s mind” thing.

The way I see things is simple.

If it is in God’s will, ask and it happens.
If it is NOT in God’s will, ask and it will NOT happen.

There’s no other way.

If God said no, that means the request is not in his will.
If so, how many times should I keep asking for that same thing before it happens?

I say “zero” - game over.

So what do you mean by “persevere in prayer”? You never got around to that important detail.

The only way to “keep praying” after a “no” is to change God’s mind. Something you are saying this is not what you said nor what you say Luke 18 says.

I’m not arguing with you on that. I agree! We CANNOT change God’s mind.

Once God says no, GAME OVER. Pray for something else. That’s how I see “persevere in prayer” - don’t give up praying for something else if God says no to one item.

The verses say the parable is to teach about how we “ought always to pray and not lose heart.”

If God said no to one request, stop praying for that request. Game over.

We should pray for a different request. That’s what “not losing heart” means - God will say yes to something ELSE you pray for that is in his will.

There are those who pray for something they really really want. If they don’t get what they want, they STOP PRAYING ALTOGETHER. They stop praying for ANYTHING.
They get angry at God and think they cannot ask God for anything, period.

This is the teaching of “persevering in prayer” - don’t give up praying if God says no to one thing, pray for something else. The teaching is to prevent people from giving up on prayer altogether.

Let me give you an example.

A teenager prays to God for a hot sports car when he turns 16 and gets his license. He keeps praying until he turns 16. At his birthday party, which he goes to after passing the driver’s test, with his new driver’s license in hand, his dad reveals he lost his job yesterday and cannot afford to buy a new car for the teenager.

The answer God gave to the teenager’s prayer is clearly “NO”. It is not God’s will.

Should the teenager keep praying for the car? Of course not. He can’t change God’s mind. Game over. Stop praying for the car.

The teenager should pray for his father to get another job. (notice switching from one thing to another)

That’s perseverance in prayer. OK, you can’t have that. But you could have something else, don’t give up.

 

[BobCatholic]

You said things like “how long” and “I don’t understand”.

Well, I don’t know “how long”. And I don’t pretend to fully “understand” such things either.

The answer for “how long” is simple.
As soon as one gets the “NO” game over. No longer. Stop asking for that thing, you’re not going to get it, it is not in God’s will, you cannot change God’s mind. Period. End of sentence.

Continuing to pray for something after God said NO to it – this is a sin. It is your way of imposing your will over God’s will. “MY WILL NOT YOURS BE DONE” is being said by continuing to pray for that rejected request.

Pray for something else.

These verses do NOT teach that we are to blow-off prayer intentions that are in conformity with God’s will.

And I never said that either

And it IS God’s will that we become WHOLE isn’t it?

Not while we are on planet earth. We become whole ONLY in heaven.

God withholds this (Romans 8:23) while on earth. On earth, the only thing is the cross.
We are held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam (not spiritually, that was solved by Jesus). There is no solution to this, if God gives us a temporal blessing, that is part of his Mercy. But there is no requirement on his part for temporal mercy, only spiritual mercy is where God is infinitely merciful.

 

[Cathoholic]

BobCatholic. You said:

The answer for “how long” is simple.
As soon as one gets the “NO” game over.

How do you KNOW when God says “No” to your prayer intentions BobCatholic? When you don’t get what you ask for?
Do you persevere in prayer for “discernment” of this knowledge or is that “game over” too?

How long before you “know” God doesn’t want your friend’s conversion that you’ve been praying for? Do you give it 5 minutes before you are convinced? 5 Days? 5 weeks?

Was St. Monica “wrong” persevering in prayer for seventeen years for her son, St. Augustine’s conversion?

Why ask ANYTHING of God BobCatholic? Do you think by praying you can “Change God’s mind”?

I asked:

And it IS God’s will that we become WHOLE isn’t it?

You said:

Not while we are on planet earth. We become whole ONLY in heaven.

But it is a process, not a mere moment BobCatholic. A process that begins NOW. Now is the acceptable day. This process begins here and now. Long before the Beatific Vision. And the “process” includes prayer.

And as Scripture, the CCC, and the Saints teach; perseverance in prayer is part of that process.

• Bible teaches perseverance in prayer (see prior posts)
• CCC teaches perseverance in prayer (see prior posts and below)
• The Saints teach perseverance in prayer (see prior posts)

ARTICLE 2
THE BATTLE OF PRAYER

CCC 2725 **Prayer is both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. It always presupposes effort. **The great figures of prayer of the Old Covenant before Christ, as well as the Mother of God, the saints, and he himself, all teach us this: prayer is a battle. Against whom? Against ourselves and against the wiles of the tempter who does all he can to turn man away from prayer, away from union with God. We pray as we live, because we live as we pray. If we do not want to act habitually according to the Spirit of Christ, neither can we pray habitually in his name. The “spiritual battle” of the Christian’s new life is inseparable from the battle of prayer.

I. OBJECTIONS TO PRAYER

CCC 2726 In the battle of prayer, we must face in ourselves and around us erroneous notions of prayer. Some people view prayer as a simple psychological activity, others as an effort of concentration to reach a mental void. Still others reduce prayer to ritual words and postures. Many Christians unconsciously regard prayer as an occupation that is incompatible with all the other things they have to do: they “don’t have the time.” Those who seek God by prayer are quickly discouraged because they do not know that prayer comes also from the Holy Spirit and not from themselves alone.

CCC 2727 We must also face the fact that certain attitudes deriving from the mentality of “this present world” can penetrate our lives if we are not vigilant. For example, some would have it that only that is true which can be verified by reason and science; yet prayer is a mystery that overflows both our conscious and unconscious lives. Others overly prize production and profit; thus prayer, being unproductive, is useless. Still others exalt sensuality and comfort as the criteria of the true, the good, and the beautiful; whereas prayer, the “love of beauty” (philokalia), is caught up in the glory of the living and true God. Finally, some see prayer as a flight from the world in reaction against activism; but in fact, Christian prayer is neither an escape from reality nor a divorce from life.

CCC 2728 Finally, our battle has to confront what we experience as failure in prayer: discouragement during periods of dryness; sadness that, because we have "great possessions,"15 we have not given all to the Lord; disappointment over not being heard according to our own will; wounded pride, stiffened by the indignity that is ours as sinners; our resistance to the idea that prayer is a free and unmerited gift; and so forth. The conclusion is always the same: what good does it do to pray? To overcome these obstacles, we must battle to gain humility, trust, and **perseverance. **

(CCC bold and ul mine)

 

[BobCatholic]

How do you KNOW when God says “No” to your prayer intentions BobCatholic? When you don’t get what you ask for?

Correct.

That’s all it takes.

How long? Some people are quick to accept God’s will, others stubbornly keep trying to change his mind.

When God says no, especially if it is something I thought is good (like my son being healed of his mental disease) - I accept God’s will with tears in my eye and a broken heart. That’s how I’m doing it.

God’s will is the cross. That’s how it works.

Was St. Monica “wrong” persevering in prayer for seventeen years for her son, St. Augustine’s conversion?

No.

This was the case of God telling her “No, but keep praying until I say yes.”
This is the case of the “monkey in the middle” game.

Why ask ANYTHING of God BobCatholic? Do you think by praying you can “Change God’s mind”?

I don’t think I can change God’s mind. I’m not God so I cannot overrule the divine.

But it is a process, not a mere moment BobCatholic. A process that begins NOW. Now is the acceptable day. This process begins here and now.

Either which way, part of the healing is always withheld. One is never healed completely until we are in heaven. See Romans 8:23

disappointment over not being heard according to our own will;

Precisely. This is where I am talking about. This is praying :“not your will but ours”

God does only his will. That’s the GAME OVER part. Can’t overrule God. Can’t change his mind.

Let me ask you this simple question.

IF YOU ASK LONG ENOUGH CAN YOU OVERRULE GOD’S WILL AND HAVE YOUR WILL DONE?

I say to that “NO WAY”

Period. End of sentence.

 

[ericc]

Let me ask you this simple question.

IF YOU ASK LONG ENOUGH CAN YOU OVERRULE GOD’S WILL AND HAVE YOUR WILL DONE?

.

Is it possible that God’s “no” is “not yet”? We see that God acts when certain conditions are met and not before. If prayers are one of those things that change the “not yet” to a “yes”, then prayers are not futile.

However, there could be items that were never part of God’s plan and will never be answered with a “yes” but He may alleviate it in some other way if we pray for the right fix. Possible?

 

[BobCatholic]

Is it possible that God’s “no” is “not yet”?
We see that God acts when certain conditions are met and not before.

Then this is the “monkey in the middle” game with God saying “nyaa nyaa you can’t have it…”

When big kids do it to the little kids with their things, it is cruel. When God does it…

If prayers are one of those things that change the “not yet” to a “yes”, then prayers are not futile.

Then God changed his mind. That cannot happen. Either it is a yes or no.

Let’s put this thinking to the test.

How can I tell the difference between “NO” and “NOT YET”?

and the kicker: WITHOUT challenging God’s will and WITHOUT wasting time praying for things that will never be given a “YES”?

The answer is you can’t. We cannot read God’s mind. “for who knows the mind of God?” says the scripture.

So I ask once. If the answer is “no” this means I don’t get the good thing I ask for within a reasonable time (hint: 200 years is not reasonable) then game over.

However, there could be items that were never part of God’s plan and will never be answered with a “yes” but He may alleviate it in some other way if we pray for the right fix. Possible?

If the item was never part of God’s plan the answer is no and game over.

“Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No” I remember the Big Boss saying. I doubt he said “let your not yet become a yes”