Assassination of Terrorist Leaders

[DIERM]

Quite serious about wondering what Ishmael and Mohamed have to do with a discussion on the morality of killing al Baghdadi.

If you are making a connection between the three as followers of Islam, are you implying the killing of any Muslim is fair game? God forbid. I must be misunderstanding.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was one if not the main leader of ISIS.

ISIS is a Muslim terrorist organization.

Islamic State - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

ISIS and it’s affiliates globally have some very violent offshoots

The core Isis manual that twisted Islam to legitimise barbarity

Experts rebut terrorists’ religious justification for beheading and kidnapping

www.theguardian.com

We have been at war with ISIL, ISIS, Al-Qaeda for quite some time, I am sure you have heard about it, it’s been in all the news papers.

These elements want to bring about a global caliphate.

The ideology is based on a form of Wahhabism Islam, which non-violent Muslims will tell you is not what they believe.

Islam comes from the prophet Muhammad…Muhammad lived a long time ago and died on Monday, 12 of Rabi’ al-awwal c. 11 AH/ 8 June, 632 CE (aged 62 or 63 years)

Muhammad’s line is thought to come from Ishmael, who was the offspring of Sarai’s handmaiden Hagar by Abram…Sarai got jealous and mad at Hagar and sent her away into the desert…

The guy who blew himself up and three children followed this sect of Islam…and that is why it is all connected…

I really hope this clears things up for you.

 

[Zach]

We have a duty to defend ourselves so assassinating someone who would mass kill every one of us if he could is self defense.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

 

[DIERM]

ISIS is a Muslim terrorist organization.

And, al Baghdadi was a terrorist who was a Muslim. His fate was morally acceptable because of his past atrocities and his capacity to commit more.

However, to feel his hit was justified not just because of his personal responsibilities, but because he was a Muslim is scandalous, in my opinion.

It implies that a Muslims are terrorists, and because of that it is morally acceptable to do them harm.

IT IS NOT!

Think about it. Adolf Hitler was a Protestant. We don’t justify the harm done to fellow Christians, especially if they are Protestant, because if Hitler was a Protestant and a Nazi, and therefore all Protestants must be Nazis.

 

[BlueMaxx]

You’re twisting in the wind there speedboat…just put the shovel down.

It was not a “hit”. We did not assassinate him. He blew himself and three children up. We were trying to apprehend him, just as we did Saddam Hussein…

My post was clear, it is a violent offshoot of Islam. It was his ideology and beliefs that drove him to do unspeakable things…HIS responsibility under the guise of his beliefs.

Call it scandalous if you want, he is the one calling for war and jihad against the infidels. Perhaps you should take a further look into his warcrimes against humanity, and I do hope you have a strong constitution, and you will see why this was such a big victory.

Your Hitler analogy is simply ridiculous and a non-sequitur.

 

[midori]

There was this famous guy who said something like…

"Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

Do you really think that people like that die of old age?

So— what about him?

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was the caliph of the Islamic State. He was the leader of this terrorist group that, at its height, controlled territory the size of Great Britain in Iraq and Syria, that drew in tens of thousands of recruits from 100 countries — 40,000, we believe — and that succeeded in carrying out attacks not just in Iraq and Syria, not just in Paris and Brussels, but in a total of — at the last count, I had 40 different countries around the world.

And

In 2003, America begins an invasion of Iraq with its coalition partners. People were dispersing. Nobody wanted to be in Baghdad at this point in time, because they were expecting that there were going to be strikes and bombardments. He (al-Baghdadi) goes back to Samarra, allegedly. And less than a year later, in early 2004, he’s picked up in Falluja at the home of his brother-in-law, who at that point had picked up guns against the American occupation. The way it’s been described to me is that he was essentially picked up almost by mistake. He was a hanger-on to his brother-in-law, who had become radicalized. So the first thing that happens, according to his fellow prisoners, is that he was named the emir of their tent. At Camp Bucca, there were specific tents that had dozens of prisoners each, and he gets named the emir of his tent. And under his emirship, he (al-Baghdadi) very quickly starts to incite violence against Shia prisoners that are being held inside this compound, to the point that Shia prisoners who were incarcerated there began to clamor at the gates, asking the Americans to be moved. Once the Shias were mostly removed from his tent, he then turned his attention to his fellow Sunnis, and he began actively policing the way that they practiced their faith. Why is your beard so short? How many times did you pray today? Why didn’t you fast? It’s the middle of Ramadan, and so on. One anecdote that I was told is they caught somebody smoking in their tent, and Baghdadi gave the order that he needed to be held down, and two of his fingers were cut off with a shank that had been made from the metal inside the air-conditioning unit that they had in their tent.

 

[midori]

So, you’re cool with people who cut off people’s fingers just for smoking?

Fast forward a little bit…

He’s not on their radar screen and, in fact, he very much disappears from view. This is kind of the black hole in Baghdadi’s evolution, where we know the least about this period. But what is clear about this period, when we look back and we start interviewing people who were members of the insurgency, we realize that, in fact, he was working his way up the ranks of the organization all along. I have spoken to members of the Islamic State of Iraq. This is the group that preceded the Islamic State. And already, in 2006, 2007, 2008, you are seeing him in the presence of senior leaders of the group that goes on to be the Islamic State, but he’s there in a support role. He’s an aide. He’s an associate. He’s not the big guy yet. And the first time that he reappears for coalition officials is in 2009, when they do a raid in the house of one of the leaders of the insurgency, and they find a personnel roster that includes the following name, Abu Dua. Abu Dua, we later learn, is the nom de guerre that Baghdadi wore before he took the name Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. And really just a year later, in 2010, the penultimate leader of ISIS is killed, and Baghdadi is named the new leader. He’s taking over, really, what was a flagging and nearly defeated insurgency. According to the C.I.A., they were down to just 700 or so members.

And all of a sudden, he’s in control of 12 million people, including 40,000 fighters from 100 different countries.

And very quickly we learn that ISIS has created a ritual… And the ritual is that both people who are carrying out acts of violence directed by ISIS and those who are merely inspired by the group record a video pledging allegiance not to ISIS, but to Baghdadi specifically. You see this in the Berlin attacker who used a large truck to run over people. You see this in the testament of the Paris attackers, who left behind a video pledging allegiance to him. You see it in the 911 call that Omar Mateen made from the Pulse night club. So you see the start of a cult of personality beginning where he is, in a way, invisible. You don’t see him in public anymore. And yet his name is everywhere, on the tips of the tongues of every single one of these attackers.

So, you were cool with Paris? With Berlin? With the Pulse Nightclub massacre?

And yet, with all this prominence, no one sees him—

 

[midori]

But what’s interesting is that even though there were constantly rumors about Baghdadi being killed, Baghdadi being injured, et cetera, when you speak to the people who were really involved and actually tracking him for the U.S. government, what they’ll tell you is that in all of 2014 and all of 2015 and in all of 2016, there was not a single verified, credible sighting of him. So they completely lost him from view. At the same time, the U.S., which had tried to disengage and leave Iraq, is forced to re-engage as ISIS becomes uncontrollable. U.S. troops return to the theater, first to Iraq and then to Syria. Airstrikes begin in both of these countries. And soon, this tide begins to turn, and ISIS, which had been growing its territory, begins to shrink. And little by little, this area that was the size of Great Britain gets smaller and smaller and smaller, until we get to this February and March, where they were down to just one village, one tiny little place called Baghuz, in Syria. A vicious battle ensues, and eventually ISIS’s territorial caliphate is lost. When it is lost and the village of Baghuz is completely emptied, we realize that he’s still nowhere to be found.

Up until— the strike this past weekend.

Interestingly enough, re: the caliphate—

And I would say that in some ways, it might even be a bigger deal than losing the territorial caliphate. The issue is that ISIS became so interwoven with this man through this ritual of having their fighters declare allegiance to him and to him alone. So I think that this is going to be disorienting for their fighters. And in the succession battle that is now most likely going to unfold, we know that, according to their own reading of scripture, in order to be a caliph, you have to be descended from the tribe of the Prophet Muhammad. There are plenty of militants. According to the Pentagon, there might be as many as 18,000 members of ISIS still remaining just in Iraq and Syria, but only a small number of those 18,000 are directly descended from the tribe of the Prophet Muhammad. So you now have a much smaller pool of people that you can choose from. Given that the bench is now so obscure, it’s unclear whether the new person is going to be able to rise to the stature and have this cohesive effect over the group, as he had.

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Seems to me that ol’ John Prine had it right when he said: “Jesus don’t like killin’ no matter what the reasons for.”

 

[DIERM]

You’re twisting in the wind there speedboat…just put the shovel down.

Mixed metaphors aren’t my thing, but ok

It was not a “hit”. We did not assassinate him. He blew himself and three children up. We were trying to apprehend him, just as we did Saddam Hussein…

irrelevant, but ok

My post was clear, it is a violent offshoot of Islam.

A non-sequitur, but ok

Call it scandalous if you want, he is the one calling for war and jihad against the infidels.

He did, ok, but it is his sin, not the sin of others in Islam

Your Hitler analogy is simply ridiculous and a non-sequitur.

It’s a non-sequitur, ok…but the caveat that it is “simply ridiculous” is subjective and offensive. Your argument would be better served if who kept to opinions and not attacks.

But, be at peace. If you are comfortable, let it be…I’m out of this one.

 

[farronwolf]

As other has pointed out he committed suicide, and was not assassinated.

One other correction to previous posts: It was two children, not three that died with him, or that he killed when committing suicide.

Nothing immoral about what happened. The military personnel gave everyone in the compound an option to come out and surrender. Some did, they are still alive. The ones that didn’t well, they suffered the consequences.

Our military did bury him according to his religious custom and the treaties we adhere to. He had every opportunity to surrender and face a trial for his actions. He chose an alternative.

 

[BlueMaxx]

BlueMaxx:

You’re twisting in the wind there speedboat…just put the shovel down.

Mixed metaphors aren’t my thing, but ok

It was not a “hit”. We did not assassinate him. He blew himself and three children up. We were trying to apprehend him, just as we did Saddam Hussein…

irrelevant, but ok

My post was clear, it is a violent offshoot of Islam.

A non-sequitur, but ok

Call it scandalous if you want, he is the one calling for war and jihad against the infidels.

He did, ok, but it is his sin, not the sin of others in Islam

Your Hitler analogy is simply ridiculous and a non-sequitur.

It’s a non-sequitur, ok…but the caveat that it is “simply ridiculous” is subjective and offensive. Your argument would be better served if who kept to opinions and not attacks.

But, be at peace. If you are comfortable, let it be…I’m out of this one.

Fine by me…

there are none so blind as those that cannot see

 

[esieffe]

War, just or not is an unfortunate, but sometimes necessary event. This guy was doing horrible things to many people. Sexual slavery public executions of civilians, and terrorism. He was an international criminal. People quickly forget what a regional and international thread this man and his group was. Young people across Europe and the middle east were radicalized used and killed.

He and his group was and still are a threat that has to be dealt with head on. They themselves could have stopped at anytime and lived, but persisted. As it was, the world put up with him and ISIS far too long.

To see just one list of some of their global terrorist attacks go to the following:

List of terrorist incidents linked to the Islamic State - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[thistle]

Hey everyone. As most of you probably already know, the leader of Islamic State, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, was assassinated by US forces in recent days. This has me wondering about the morality of such assassinations. I assumed they are moral but a Catholic friend of mine says they are not. Therefore, I decided to ask all of you. Is it moral or immoral when a terrorist leader is assassinated?

He was not assassinated. He killed himself and his children by blowing up a suicide vest.

 

[Holly3278]

I just want to apologize to everyone. I shouldn’t have claimed that Abu Bakr al Baghdadi was assassinated as he was not assassinated. He died because he detonated his suicide vest. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of that when I originally posted but I made a mistake and for that I apologize.

 

[po18guy]

If it was moral for President Obama to whack Osama Bin Laden, then…???

 

[Freddy]

I just want to apologize to everyone. I shouldn’t have claimed that Abu Bakr al Baghdadi was assassinated as he was not assassinated. He died because he detonated his suicide vest. I’m not sure why I didn’t think of that when I originally posted but I made a mistake and for that I apologize.

I don’t see any problem. It reminds me of the cry: ‘You can’t sack me. I quit!’.

I think his last thought might have been: ‘You can’t kill me. I’m going to do it myself!’

 

[GiftofMercy]

assassinated by US forces

He blew himself up as did two of his wives after a ferocious Malinois named Conan chased them down a tunnel.

 

[GiftofMercy]

but killing three children he drug with him.

murdering three children (his own children? not sure about that) at the same time.

and his children by blowing up a suicide vest.

The special forces that were on the operation said no children were harmed. 2 wives blew themselves up

 

[thistle]

The special forces that were on the operation said no children were harmed. 2 wives blew themselves up

Okay but I watched Trump’s speech live on tv and he said Baghdadi had three of his children with him when he blew himself up and they were killed with him.

I guess just another example of Trump lying. He has lied so often he might not even know he’s doing it.