Assisted Suicide Bill Passes California Assembly

[wabrams]

No, those are the same levels of the brain. This is extremely conclusive for the irreversibility of Terri Schiavo’s condition. I’m fairly certain there was an autopsy too, which confirmed that.

Autopsy confirmed nothing except that there was sizable atrophy of the brain, which would be consistant with someone who was starved to death. The brain is primarily made of water, you know.

 

[LaLucia]

RINNIE, I am so sorry for the lose of your brother. It looks to me that he still had some time to live. Te wife is the one who called Hospice Care to take over. She had the power over his care and she did him in. Hospice Care takes over when a person who has power of attorney calls them to take over the care of a person.

It looks like your brother had a hopeless case of a brain tumor that they couldn’t operate on it. But he still had some time to live and then his mean wife decided to get rid of him by calling Hospice Care. I am on your side in saying that his life was curtailed by his wife’s power to get rid of him before his time.
He made a bad choice for a wife. I believe that she will have to answer to God when her time comes to die.
I can understand your anger because it wasn’t your brother’s time and you were helpless since you didn’t have the power of attorney.

Rinnie, you are so right about my situation in my future. My daughter-in-law doesn’t like me and I have a feeling she will pull the plug on me and curtail my life by two weeks. I already had a dream about it. I need to have a talk with my son to not let his wife have final say so to when to pull the life support system from my body. I only have one son. My other adult son died 10yrs ago of a brain tumor. He had a quick death because he didn’t know he had a brain tumor until the autopsy was done on him. He died at home alone and he was a policeman. That is why he had the autopsy. Lucy

 

[wabrams]

Erm, no. In other words, sources that do not have an obvious bias. Mlchance- did you never learn the difference between an authoritative source and a rubbish source?

rinnie- Touching story- but that isn’t what we’re talking about. This is not about involnutary euthanasia. This is about assisted suicide.

Again, read the links to the doctor’s affidavants within the links I provided. That is, unless you consider the reports of doctor’s who physically examined her as biased.

 

[Swan]

Let me give you all something to consider from a different point of view. My father, who had emphysema, killed himself about 10 years ago. His suicide note said that his quality of life was so low that he didn’t want to go on. He was depressed but he was not yet terminally ill though he did have to be on oxygen (pulling the little tank around). Had assisted suicide been legal it is possible that he would have checked into it. Once he did, he would have received some counseling and treatment for his depression. Probably we as family would have become aware of what was going on. It would have given us and him so many more options. As it was, he shot himself. We were totally shocked. Now, perhaps he would have done this either way, assisted suicide law or not. But I do think that there are people out there who aren’t aware of some of the things that can be done to alleviate their suffering while still giving them a decent quality of life. In some cases, just having the option to talk to someone and get counseling could make a person who wanted to die change their mind. As it is now, folks don’t want to send up warning flags, so they just do it. No complications that way.

I’d also like to say that I’m bipolar (as was my dad) and I understand suicidal thoughts in a very personal way - termial illness or not, so my point of view is somewhat skewed compared to those who don’t suffer from mental illness. I just think that for some folks, feeling like they had an option and just trying to get more info, could lead them to treatment and counseling that might give them a reason to go on. My dad didn’t want to be a burden. If we’d had the chance to show him that we loved him and wanted to care for him, maybe he’d have changed his mind. But I hate to see such painful, personal issues dealt with as if everything were so easily decided in a black and white manner by people who, though well meaning, might very well have tunnel vision. And no everyone is a Catholic - some folks (me, for example) have no moral problem with assisted suicide and really wish we were allowed to decide for ourselves. Shooting yourself in the head is an ugly way to go.

 

[ilovekittens]

Can’t be; one slice has the frontal sinuses the other doesn’t.

These scans are from different people, and there is variability in size and development of frontal sinuses from person to person. These scans are from the same level, or within a cm or so of each other. Trust me.

 

[ilovekittens]

Autopsy confirmed nothing except that there was sizable atrophy of the brain, which would be consistant with someone who was starved to death. The brain is primarily made of water, you know.

This is wrong, also. I looked it up. The autopsy showed widespread neuronal necrosis/gliosis, consistent with the severe, irreversible anoxic encephalopathy she suffered several years beforehand.

 

[wabrams]

These scans are from different people, and there is variability in size and development of frontal sinuses from person to person. These scans are from the same level, or within a cm or so of each other. Trust me.

Trust you? What’s your medical training?

 

[wabrams]

This is wrong, also. I looked it up. The autopsy showed widespread neuronal necrosis/gliosis, consistent with the severe, irreversible anoxic encephalopathy she suffered several years beforehand.

But it was wasn’t severe enough to consider her a “vegetable;” irreversable is completely different from no cognitive video. This was also evident from the 16+ neurologists that evaluated her, affidavants from the hospice staff, and video.

 

[ilovekittens]

But it was wasn’t severe enough to consider her a “vegetable;” irreversable is completely different from no cognitive video. This was also evident from the 16+ neurologists that evaluated her, affidavants from the hospice staff, and video.

Persistent vegetative state is a clinical diagnosis, based on how the patient looks and acts; it’s not a pathological diagnosis. Her pathological diagnosis would have been something like widespread encephalomalacia/neuronal loss/gliosis related to severe anoxia.

This is all academic, though, isn’t it? I thought the reason her case is considered a tragedy (by some people) is the simple fact that she died when she could have been allowed to live. That is perhaps understandable, if one feels that quantity of life is more important than quality of life. If the tragedy is instead believed to be that she could have, with some “extra physical therapy” or something, pulled out of her neurologically devastated state - well, that’s wrong. The CT scan and especially the autopsy show her brain was irreversibly damaged, - to say nothing of the fact that after 5 or 10 years of giving her a chance, she was still bedbound, non-communicative, cortically blind, fully dependent, fed thru a tube, etc.

 

[Pong]

Pong whats the difference, i never even knew there was a name for what they did to my brother. How can this be legal.

The difference is that euthanasia in any form requires medical personel to end the life of the patient. Assisted suicide leaves the responsibility in the hands of the patient.

Also, you are over-personalizing this issue. Just because proper protocol may not have been followed in your brother’s particular case, doesn’t mean that it should be outlawed.

Why, yes, I have. For example, the Church is an authoritative source when it comes to moral teachings, and the Church unequivocally condemns assisted suicide.

The Church may say what she likes and Catholics are bound to comply, but that rule does not hold for non-Catholics. Muslims, Buddhists, etc… have their own views on morality and our government is obliged to respect that. We as Catholics simply do not have the right to impose our moral teachings on others through legislative means. Just because the Catholic Church claims to be the truth doesn’t necessarily make it so.

Again, read the links to the doctor’s affidavants within the links I provided. That is, unless you consider the reports of doctor’s who physically examined her as biased.

I have read them; I read them the first time you posted them along with several dissenting reports and the brain scan which someone has already posted.

But it was wasn’t severe enough to consider her a “vegetable;” irreversable is completely different from no cognitive video. This was also evident from the 16+ neurologists that evaluated her, affidavants from the hospice staff, and video.

Oh, you mean the four hour footage which was edited to show approximately 55 seconds of “response” that was, at best, highly suspect? The fact of the matter is that Schiavo was not able to respond in any sort of meanigful way to stimulus. Her reactions were not in any way association with higher brain function ; any other intepretation is wishful thinking/ The brain scans that were taken in 2002 clearly show the liquidation of cerebral tissue needed for cognitive function.

 

[rinnie]

Lalucia, thankyou for you compassion, the worst part was he did have an operation, and you will not believe this the Dr got 98% of the tumor. It was unheard of. My cousin worked at the clinic and the day of my brothers operation something was wrong. We just thought that the Dr was running late. Here the operation was cancelled, the dr just had to come in and tell us. The Dr was comming to tell us and saw my Dad he was 79 at the time saying his rosarys with big tears rolling down his eyes. The Dr went back in and said how do I tell this man his son is going to die. The Dr went back in and prayed himself,and came back out and said lets go, he said to my bro you ready, by bro said yes. The other dr who was supposed to assist said are you crazy you will lose him on the table, law suits out you … The Dr listened to God, i swear to you 2 days later my brother walked out of that operation and knew just as much as you and I. The Dr said he was a miracle. He wanted to keep up on his progress, he said he needed kemo. but he said i have never said this to anyone in your position, but i think you are going to be the first to really be a cure. Something about a rare (sorry cant spell it (cromozone) or something. He was doing excellent, going to kemo, getting back on track with God. Then when it was time to go back to work something went wrong, All of a sudden his thinking was messed up… He kept saying shes putting stuff in my food, drinks, etc. We believed her, that the tumor was messing up his thinking, He said one day drink this ice tea i swear, i hate ice tea, Dear GOd if i would have drank it i would have been actiing funny too. I didnt believe him, Here she wasnt taking him to his treatments, we believe she was, then the dr gave up on him because he wouldnt show up. here she never took him, Her and my other sister in law were in on it together, they were both on cocaine. The reason she got rid of him fast things werent adding up to me, and i started inocently asking questions. I swear i never suspected her. never. What an idiot i was, No one believed me, now they do 4 years later, the truth comes out more and more every day. SHe went thru 250,000 in 2 years, nothing to show for it, Im just saying people can abuse a system. Maybe because its wrong in the first place. Hes with God i will live with the guilt the rest of my life, but i did everything in my power to stop her, it was too late, when the truth did start to come out his major organs were shutting down. But I believe in GOd and i know GOd has him. But like when Judas betrayed Jesus it did not have to happen this way. Like Jesus said if you were my people you would never let them kill me.

 

[LaLucia]

RINNIE, many women have poisoned their husbands and gotten away with murder. There was nothing you could have done to save your brother from his cocaine head wife. Her first love is cocaine. She is going to pay big time for what she did to your brother. Believe me… you are not at fault at all. You need to sit down with a priest or therapist who will tell you that it was not your fault for your brother’s death.
They say that people with brain tumors don’t always make the right choices in life. That is why he chose that evil woman as his wife. If he had been in his right mind he would have chosen a good wife. But his tumor was messing up his logical reasoning.

My son who died of a brain tumor also had made some bad choices of wives and girlfriends. He would choose gals who had serious pyschological mental problems. He created a tough world for himself. He wasn’t seeing things logically either.

It is normal to feel guilty with the death of a loved one when they die. A part of me died when my adult son died.

Please stop feeling guilty because your brother is with God and is at peace on the other side. He will come to get you when your time comes and you will be together again. I truly believe that.
You are still mourning the loss of your brother so it is normal to feel guilty. I know you keep asking yourself, “What if…”
All I can say is there was nothing you could have done to save him. Only time will heal your heart. Lucy

 

[wabrams]

Persistent vegetative state is a clinical diagnosis, based on how the patient looks and acts; it’s not a pathological diagnosis. Her pathological diagnosis would have been something like widespread encephalomalacia/neuronal loss/gliosis related to severe anoxia.

This is all academic, though, isn’t it? I thought the reason her case is considered a tragedy (by some people) is the simple fact that she died when she could have been allowed to live. That is perhaps understandable, if one feels that quantity of life is more important than quality of life. If the tragedy is instead believed to be that she could have, with some “extra physical therapy” or something, pulled out of her neurologically devastated state - well, that’s wrong. The CT scan and especially the autopsy show her brain was irreversibly damaged, - to say nothing of the fact that after 5 or 10 years of giving her a chance, she was still bedbound, non-communicative, cortically blind, fully dependent, fed thru a tube, etc.

She was not given 5 to 10 years. She was making strides, per the staff, with swallowing. You really need to go back and read the full story on her, not just media sound bites.

 

[rinnie]

RINNIE, many women have poisoned their husbands and gotten away with murder. There was nothing you could have done to save your brother from his cocaine head wife. Her first love is cocaine. She is going to pay big time for what she did to your brother. Believe me… you are not at fault at all. You need to sit down with a priest or therapist who will tell you that it was not your fault for your brother’s death.
They say that people with brain tumors don’t always make the right choices in life. That is why he chose that evil woman as his wife. If he had been in his right mind he would have chosen a good wife. But his tumor was messing up his logical reasoning.

My son who died of a brain tumor also had made some bad choices of wives and girlfriends. He would choose gals who had serious pyschological mental problems. He created a tough world for himself. He wasn’t seeing things logically either.

It is normal to feel guilty with the death of a loved one when they die. A part of me died when my adult son died.

Please stop feeling guilty because your brother is with God and is at peace on the other side. He will come to get you when your time comes and you will be together again. I truly believe that.
You are still mourning the loss of your brother so it is normal to feel guilty. I know you keep asking yourself, “What if…”
All I can say is there was nothing you could have done to save him. Only time will heal your heart. Lucy

Its like unreal, you actually understand, Dear God where did you come from. You had to have been there done that to understand, you are amazing, thankyou so much. My Mom is like you, part of her died, part of all of us died, but you know what Daddy died this year in March, and it is so hard. but you know what Daddy was pure God you know what i mean. His death was Gods choice, its still hard to lose him, but i know it was Gods will. Its so different, I cant explain it. When Daddy died he opened his eyes stretched out his arms (just like he did in the Our Father every Sunday) got a big smile on his face and went to God. Thats the difference if Joey could have done that it would have been okay. BUt you know the ironic thing God was still taking Joey on that day, all she had to do was do it the right way, and you know what her secret was safe, we would never have found out. But she forced it,and the truth came out, she would have got off scott free. And to boot Daddy was paying all the bills and untill this March still would have been, And the best part my brother was living in my Mom and Dads house free, Its valued at 250.000 . Mom and Dad would have turned it over to her for taking care of Joey. 3 weeks thats all she had to do. Because God was still calling Joey home on that day, but the 3 weeks didnt have to be hell for him. Ironic isnt it. But you know what the house would have been worth it for Joey to have a peaceful death. But i guess God said no. thankyou again so much.

 

[LaLucia]

Rinnie, you have had two major losses within a few months time.
I used to work as a counselor and have done research on death and how to console people when a loved one dies.
My advise to your whole family is to take good care of yourselves by going out to dinner and eating comfort foods. Don’t bother with small talk with people on the telephone. Just say you have to go when you start to feel you don’t want to listen to the trivial conversations. You need time to heal by just taking care of yourself. Your Mom is your best person to talk with and cry with together because she is also going through the losses. It must be really hard to lose her husband and a son.

It looks like your father had a peaceful death and his family members and angels were there to take him to the other side. He is with Joey too. He came for Joey when it was Joey’s turn to die.
When Hospice took over the care of Joey they kept giving him strong pain medication so he wouldn’t feel any pain. He died pain free. I know that maybe he still had some time left in his life but his cocaine head wife didn’t give him that extra time.

All Hospice did was make sure they could do the best for him.
Always remember that you didn’t have power of attorney over your brother’s life. There was nothing you could have done to help him.
All Doctors and Hospitals only want one person to be in charge of an ill person and that was his wife that was not a good choice for his care.
Whenever you feel sad for your brother just say a prayer for him instead. I am sure he will appreciate it. It is okay to cry for him whenever you want because it will help to heal your heart. You will also become stronger.

Keep mourning your loses of your loved ones. It will take years to get over it or maybe never. But after two years you will come out of your anger and start to feel better.

You also need to let go of flimsy friends who don’t understand your feelings about your loss. They will act like nothing happened to you because it didn’t happen to them. It is just human behavior.

Deep in your heart you will always know the truth about what really happened to your brother…but you will have to let it go so you can have peace in your life. Your brother Joey does show up in spirit to visit you and your Mom so that should give you comfort.
You may sense him, feel him, smell him, and dream about him.
His spirit lives on in your Mom’s house. Take care, Lucy

 

[rinnie]

Thanks lucy, Actually is will be 5 years in July for Joey, IT is only 3 months now for Daddy. Daddy was everyones rock, Everything you said about Joeys death is true, it took us 2 years to even move on, then it was like a snowball effect, every bit of truth started comming out, now everyones comming back saying you were right, etc. My mom is like please just (like you said) leave us alone, We have let go alot of the resentment now,and like you said she will have to face God, BUt what is worse for my Mom Lucy, its like its not finished yet, because my two sister-in laws were in it together. The only truth that hasnt been proved is the other sister-in-law. Can you believe my other brother blamed us for 2 years, could not believe that Daddy and Mom made her leave the House, My Mom said nooone on dope is living in my home. Now the best part my sister-in law for 2 years condemened us, but this time we never gave in, she always walked over my mother because she knew of her love for him. But when it came to Joey my mom drew the line, she just told my brother to keep her away and leave us alone. Now that the truth came out, she turned everything around because she knows we dont talk to the other one and blamed everthing on her and said we were right, she was doing as much dope as the other one, And my brother still thinks now its all the other ones fault, can you believe that. Now whats even worse its like we cant move on all the way because she is still so full of so much lies and evilness, everyone tells him but he believes her. My Mom said leave him alone, hes gonna get sick or have a heart attack, let GOd take care of him. and her, But after 5 years she is still trying to get in, to cause more trouble. she has cheated on my brother all her life, abused her kids, shes a drunk always has been and only GOd know what else, At least the other got caught, but trust me the other was the master mind. thats whats hard, its like my poor mom cant get peace. She asked me one day, how could someone as good as your Dad, served mass, prayed everyday, get 2 devils into his family. Daddy always said pray for them, they are lost souls, the one at least got hers, the other never will. i know that now. But Daddy said feel sorry for the other one, he said if you dont pay in this world you will pay in the next. and the next one is forever. He said that for people like her (its like the more people she hurts the more she gets i swear) but Daddy said she will keep getting, this is her world. SO i just hold on to that, and keep reminding my Mom. BUt Daddy says pray, so we try but its so hard Lucy.

 

[rinnie]

Sorry for going ot guys, i feel guilty but please listen to what we are saying, if it can happen to us, it can happen to anyone. People will and can abuse the system. And trust me its getting worse, dope is everywhere, when people get on it the devil take over. and bills like this just helps him. Please listen to us. IT could be you or even worse your child. Pay attention.

 

[Pong]

Again, Rinnie, you are trying to apply your situation to every situation and that simply does not do. :banghead:

People will and can abuse the system.

Just because they can, doesn’t mean they will.

And trust me its getting worse, dope is everywhere, when people get on it the devil take over. and bills like this just helps him.

For the last time- The bill in California is not about you and your situation. “Dope” has nothing to do with it.

Please listen to us. IT could be you or even worse your child. Pay attention.

What could be us or even our child? The ability to choose suicide? So what? That is already our perrogative. The difference is, thanks to this bill, there is no longer a need for terminally-ill patients to resort to violent and oftentimes unreliable means of ending their own lives.

 

[CatholicNerd]

The difference is, thanks to this bill, there is no longer a need for terminally-ill patients to resort to violent and oftentimes unreliable means of ending their own lives.

No indeed. Now their family members will simply make that choice for them. You’re not really up on your history, are you? Aktion T4 ring a bell? Something that I think people have failed to bring up (my poor eyes may have missed it) and you most certainly fail to realize is that intense suffering can be a good thing. It may be a person’s purgatory, that final test of true obedience to the will of the Father. The rewards for perseverance are great.

Saint Ignatius of Loyola said this about our time on earth:
“…it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things
in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and is not prohibited
to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches
rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short
life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only what is most
conducive for us to the end for which we are created.”

Ignoring the role of God as the author of life is indeed turning away from the end for which we were created.
If you can’t stomach that, maybe you should go be Episcopalian. They’d love you over there.

 

[rinnie]

Okay Pong, im not going to argue with you, but I pray to God that it never happens to you or someone you love. Suicide is Suicide, God is in charge not us. Keep putting your trust in others MAN instead of God and its going to get worse. I want God to take me when he says not when the goverment does, or I want, i trust God. They took God out of schools too didnt they. My mother always say you take God our you only leave room for the devil to move in. Again Suicide is against the Catholic faith. its wrong. just my opinion. so my vote is no.