Assumption of st. Mary

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Didn’t followers of St.Jude carry his picture…?..sacramentals go way back.

Isn’t there something in Islam that a rock is venerated in Saudi Arabia???

Carrying a venerated object…be it your mother or whatever…makes you a human being.
 
Didn’t followers of St.Jude carry his picture…?..sacramentals go way back.

Carrying a venerated object…be it your mother or whatever…makes you a human being.
Kathleen,
I carry in my wallet a picture of St. Peregrine - patron saint of cancer victims. I have since I was diagnosed with prostate cancer 4+ years ago. His story and faith are a source of strength for me, even though I haven’t needed treatment since my initial procedure.

Jon
 
So you do, Jon…You are enjoying the benefits of believing in the communion of saints who pray for us and await us.

I pray the cancer does not return. They think that practically all men have prostrate cancer by the time they are in their 90’s…from autopsies…but most of these cancers do not mestasticize. The aggressive ones are the ones to look for. I hope that yours is permanently resolved…

Kathleen
 
Hey Dave and Freedom…Sacred Scripture (tradition committed to writing) -and Sacred Tradition (oral tradition not always explicitly committed to writing in the form of sacred scripture) - are both sources of revealed truths given to us by Jesus’ church and can be trusted and believed if you believe what your bible has to say about the spirit of truth guiding His church into all truth in perpetuity, so it’s important that we acknowledge them both and in practice reconcile one with the other, for they come from the same divine fount, His church; God has revealed both ST and SS to us through His Church. Neither of these truths, be it oral or written, would be available to you or me today if not for the CC’s direct involvement and influence. God has revealed everything to us through His Church and I don’t think it’s logical to embrace some things as inerrant truth and reject other things as manufactured lies peddled by Jesus’ church. This kind of logic cast all kinds of suspicion on the written word that was revealed to all by Jesus’ church - right?

You guys, using the holy bible as the sole rule of faith is a mis-use of the Bible. It was not created, nor contains instruction, to be used in such a way. It must be used in the proper context and interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition and the teaching authority of the Church empowered by Christ to do said teaching:

He said to them…(Jesus’ Church leadership) - you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to **the ends of the earth." **

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me…teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Many Christians don’t realize (like my sister for example) - that even the idea of using the Bible as the only rule of faith (Sola Scriptura) - is actually a new invention propagated only in the past 500 years. It was unheard of before that point and was certainly not practiced by the Apostles or the early Christians. They would have been extremely perplexed at at the very idea.

Bottom line. if the CC has been teaching erroneously for centuries regarding things such as the IC or the AOM then it’s time to consider the idea that the CC could have taught erroneously in the 4th and 5th century when they finally collected, selected, compiled and eventually codified the written canon, in the midst of many **so called canonical books and apocryphal books making there way around the known world. It was from within the CC that doctrinal truth regarding the correct inclusion of books in your bible and the correct exclusion of books from your bible - was revealed. Outside the CC was nothing but one plinter sect after another teaching all kinds of heretical doctrine. In other words guys, your NT could have books in the bible that are not, and never were, **meant to be part of the inspired word of god, especially considering the fact that you guys think that the CC added 7 spurious books to the OT; this just adds more fodder for your claims, that the NT is error free (thanks to the authoritative proclamation of the CC) - all the while claiming that other authoritative proclamations by the CC are spurious at best.

Either the CC is right on a wholesale level, doctrinally speaking, thanks to the guidance of the holy spirit, the spirit of truth, Who is guiding the CC into all truth, and safeguarding the deposit of faith (be it word or letter) - from within and without, or, doctrinal truth was never attainable from the very beginning. This door doesn’t swing both ways guys.

I don’t think anyone here is ever going to change your minds but it is fun going back and forth in an amicable exchange. Dave and Freedom, why did you guys come here to CAF? Just curious. I know why I did 3 years ago. Was it to learn something about the catholic faith or to share with us something that you believe is lacking in our catholic faith eg the AOM is untrue?

Peace…👍
Its funny how Jesus spent so much time debunking the false traditions of the Jews.
Jesus said on one occasion Matt 22:29 “You do err, not knowing the scriptures.”
15:3 "why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your traditions?..
You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
On Sola Scriptura: In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 scripture states that it is “inspired” and “competent” for a believer to be “equipped for every good work”. If the bible alone is sufficient to do this, then nothing else is needed. There is a more that i can write but it would take a lot of time.
This is one of the reasons why i left the catholic church 11yrs ago. The traditions over the Word of God and We were never taught about salvation. I just have a heart to help catholics understand Gods Word.
 
=KathleenGee;7002541]So you do, Jon…You are enjoying the benefits of believing in the communion of saints who pray for us and await us.
Oh, I do. Of course, as a Lutheran, I pray the novella differently, addressing my pray to our Heavenly Father, asking Him to hear the prayers of His servant, St. Peregrine.
I pray the cancer does not return. They think that practically all men have prostrate cancer by the time they are in their 90’s…from autopsies…but most of these cancers do not mestasticize. The aggressive ones are the ones to look for. I hope that yours is permanently resolved…
Thank you for your kindness. My doctor told me that with prostate cancer, for most men it is a matter of when, not if. And that most men simply die of other causes before prostate cancer plays a role.

Jon
 
Its funny how Jesus spent so much time debunking the false traditions of the Jews.
Jesus said on one occasion Matt 22:29 “You do err, not knowing the scriptures.”
15:3 "why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your traditions?..
You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
On Sola Scriptura: In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 scripture states that it is “inspired” and “competent” for a believer to be “equipped for every good work”. If the bible alone is sufficient to do this, then nothing else is needed. There is a more that i can write but it would take a lot of time.
This is one of the reasons why i left the catholic church 11yrs ago. The traditions over the Word of God and We were never taught about salvation. I just have a heart to help catholics understand Gods Word.
First of all, Jesus was not condemning all traditions,so you are wrong. 2 Tim 3:16-17 was never written to support Sola Scriptura, a false and bogus doctrine you have bought.

BTW: Show me where Jesus taught the BIBLE-ALONE is SUFFICIENT for salvation?

You left the CC because you were to ignorant and lazy to learn the faith.
 
Hi Jon,

Don’t worry…the prayer is having the same intent as yours…it will work as written…It is only God the Father through Christ and the Holy Spirit Who heals…in answer to our prayers and the saints praying for us.

When I studied ecumenism, the bishop who attended Vatican II, said essentially the problem with Lutheranism is scruples.

God bless!
 
On Sola Scriptura: In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 scripture states that it is “inspired” and “competent” for a believer to be “equipped for every good work”. If the bible alone is sufficient to do this, then nothing else is needed. There is a more that i can write but it would take a lot of time.
Scripture never states that it “alone is sufficient” like you contend. Also 2 Tim 3 does not say “competent” It says “complete”… *" that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." * 2 Tim 3:17. This does not mean that the Scriptures alone are all that is needed. Think of it like this; I need a thumb to have a “complete” hand but I still need my four other fingers. It is not “sufficient” enough to have just a thumb in order to have a complete hand.

God bless you
 
Scripture never states that it “alone is sufficient” like you contend. Also 2 Tim 3 does not say “competent” It says “complete”… " that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:17. This does not mean that the Scriptures alone are all that is needed. Think of it like this; I need a thumb to have a “complete” hand but I still need my four other fingers. It is not “sufficient” enough to have just a thumb in order to have a complete hand.

God bless you
Oh but he is here to help us poor Catholics understand the Word of God? LOL Did you noticed he said when he was a Catholic (supposedly) the church did not teach about salvation? Evidently he was not paying attention.
 
Hey freedomwriter, you totally ignore my post on Genesis and Ephesians (enmity) - and, instead, change the subject. Your pen name is quite apropos for you are quite liberal in your methods.
On Sola Scriptura: In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 scripture states that it is “inspired” and “competent” for a believer to be “equipped for every good work”.
And we all agree that scripture is god breathed and useful… “'All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”
If the bible alone is sufficient to do this, then nothing else is needed.
Everyone here has asked you politely, to reveal to us where scripture says: the bible alone is sufficient…nothing else is needed, yet you just ignore us. That doesn’t seem like an open and honest exchange does it?
There is a more that i can write but it would take a lot of time.
Everything you write is off topic, counter biblical and cavalierly unresponsive. How are we to have an honest debate under those circumstances my friend? :confused:
This is one of the reasons why i left the catholic church 11yrs ago. The traditions over the Word of God and We were never taught about salvation. I just have a heart to help catholics understand Gods Word.
So, you left Jesus’ established church because you refused to stand firm and hold to the teachings the CC, (founded by Jesus) - passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter…because you refused to hold firmly to the traditions delivered to you by Jesus’ church? Phew…:eek:

Like Nicea said: 2 Tim 3:16-17 was never written to support Sola Scriptura, a false and bogus doctrine you have bought into. Freedom, why is that?

You quote Matthew regarding the Jews and utterly ignore Paul regarding **Jesus’ one church. **Freedom, debunking the false traditions of the Jews has nothing to do with the traditions safeguarded by the Holy Spirit, in Jesus’ church as per sacred scripture:

Traditions of the Jews to which Jesus was referring:

Matthew 15 - Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!"3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’[a] and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’* 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he is not to ‘honor his father[c]’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition
**

Traditions of Jesus’ one church of which the bible speaks:

*1 Corinthians 11:2 - Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

2 Thess. 3 - So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
*

What does one have to do with the other? What does Matthew 15 have to do with 1 Cor. or 2 Thess. - apostolic tradition safeguarded by the ever presence of the HS in Jesus’ church? You are losing me man. :confused::confused::confused:
Jesus said on one occasion Matt 22:29:
Jesus shows them that they - Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
So the Jewish leaders didn’t correctly interpret the OT, so what? What does that have to do with anything, especially the church founded by God, forever guided by the HS into all truth, be it word or letter? Jesus’ church knows the scriptures for the HS, the power of God is forever guiding Jesus’ church. If the CC doesn’t know “the scriptures” then who or what church does?

Freedom, you appeal to scripture again and again as your one and only authority via your supposed infallible interpretation, to discredit the very church founded by God that gave the canon of scripture to you in the first place. Again, you’re losing me man???

Just in case you overlooked it:

Show me where Jesus taught the BIBLE-ALONE is SUFFICIENT for salvation?*
 
ASSUMPTION OF ST. MARY

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you,** I will come back again and take you to myself**, so that where I am you also may be. Where (I) am going you know the way."

Genesis 5:24 And **he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him. **

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Henoch was translated that he should not see death: and he was not found because God had translated him. For before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God.

2 Kings 2:11
And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,

**1 **Thesslonians 4:17 (4:16) Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall rise again incorruptible. And we shall be changed.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven: and the ark of his testament was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings and voices and an earthquake and great hail.

Revelation 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

What is the non-Catholic Christian response to the Catholic belief in the Assumption of St. Mary?

The logical conclusion, based solely on these Bible verses alone (above) is that the mother of God, Mary, would have been taken to heaven and that there is a biblical and traditional bases for the Catholic belief in the Assumption of Mary.

There seems to more dogma in Protestant denominations with less, or no biblical support… such as Sola fide (Faith Alone), Sola scriptura (Scripture Alone/Bible Alone) and so on…

Moreover, there also appears to be more biblical evidence, which conflict with many Protestant beliefs and little or no evidence, depending on who you’re talking to, that conflict with the belief in the Assumption of Mary.

Is it possible that this belief is rejected by many Protestants simply because it is “Catholic”?.

What are your thoughts about these verses and what they mean and about the Assumption of Mary?
 
Thanks Jimmy and others for Scriptural references…I have pondered them throughtout the years at Mass.,I know I recall such references and why fo myself I came to conviction in time Mary was indeed assumed and glorified in heaven…may be it is not necessary for us to know whether she died or just passed through into glory as in some ways, she ‘died’ with Jesus on the cross…just a reflection…Jesus came from her and passed through her…she following Him…passed through death into glory instanteously?..
 
Didn’t followers of St.Jude carry his picture…?..sacramentals go way back.

Isn’t there something in Islam that a rock is venerated in Saudi Arabia???

Carrying a venerated object…be it your mother or whatever…makes you a human being.
Code:
    A   rock? Not just a rock, they built a dome over it,it is in Israel, the Dome of the Rock, it is said that, that is the very rock Abraham offered up Isaac and God provided the Lamb.  It is the very place the Temple stood, supposedly [75 yrs after Mohammed's' death] it was told that Mohammed who never did a miracle, was elevated above that rock, another has him being lifted to heaven.   Unlike the Gospels when the 'story ' circulated there were no witnesses available.
They all face the dome when they pray.

Actually it is a physical contact that humans crave… it is why we have the Eucharist, Jesus sharing our nature, knows our frailty, so he gave us the Eucharist to remain not only in spirtual contact but also physical contact.

God bless,
John
 
Its funny how Jesus spent so much time debunking the false traditions of the Jews.
Jesus said on one occasion Matt 22:29 “You do err, not knowing the scriptures.”
15:3 "why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your traditions?..
You have nullified the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
On Sola Scriptura: In 2 Timothy 3:16-17 scripture states that it is “inspired” and “competent” for a believer to be “equipped for every good work”.** If the bible alone is sufficient **to do this, then nothing else is needed. There is a more that i can write but it would take a lot of time.
This is one of the reasons why i left the catholic church 11yrs ago. The traditions over the Word of God and We were never taught about salvation. I just have a heart to help catholics understand Gods Word.
There are false traditions, perfect example, “You don’t need a attend a church”

I like the way you piecemeal those two vss out of context, like Christ was addressing the Church? But that’s the length people will go to speak ill of the Catholic Church.

Its funny how you ignore Paul , let’s keep scripture in the context it was written who was Jesus speaking to in Matt 22:29, religious phonies

Mat 22:29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God

The Sadduccees who did not believe in the Resurrection, tried to trip Him up with a trick question, and Jesus left them with egg on their faces’

because is the ‘God is the God of the living’

Paul here is speaking to the believers in Christ:

1Cr 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

not everything could be written, so saith scripture.

How about this verse

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

What does Scripture say about Christ’s Church??
Let me how you what your protestant friends don’t show you

1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,

1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Not the Bible, but the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth

Eph 3:10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

Not the Bible but the Church

Not everyone was educated to read and write, eduction for everyone is a product of the19th century. A complete Bible before Guttenburg , cost as much as a house, and it was rare to have a complete set of Scriptures.

Never taught about Salvation in the Catholic Church? Wow, all protestants believe the Catholic Church teach about Salvation, they just quote it wrong all protestants believe that Catholic teach a work based salvation! How’d you miss that?
The central teaching of Of Catholicism is the Cross and How Jesus suffered for our sins to open the gates of heaven to all those who believe in Him.

Paul started writng letters to the Church, not as the N.T. but to reinforce the teachings he has already instructed them by word of mouth.
Matthew is being written after 60 a.d. Luke 85 a.d. Acts and John 95 a.d. What did the church do all those yrs without Scared Scripture?? They listened to the teachings of the Apostle, the presbyters, and their bishops. besides a Bible was not possible in every home til the 17th century?

Martin Luther did not believe in sola scriptura outside light of a teaching authority.

Bible alone? That kind of wipes put what our parents teach us, by example, and behavior, and that’s not biblical… it wipes out our life experience which brings us to Christ.

Show me one verse in the Bible where it says ‘alone’. Christ establishes a church, to be here when He returns, so you can thumb your nose at it? I don’t think so.

God bless,
John
 
I don’t want to go out to the Muslim arena…

but the Muslims mistakenly thought the rock…the Dome of the Rock…was where Abraham offered his son,…Jerusalem was in its beginnings at the time of Abraham…he went out into the wildnerness…scholars think it is near Sidon/Nablus where Abraham encountered the angel thwarting him from sacrificing his son.
 
I don’t want to go out to the Muslim arena…

but the Muslims mistakenly thought the rock…the Dome of the Rock…was where Abraham offered his son,…Jerusalem was in its beginnings at the time of Abraham…he went out into the wildnerness…scholars think it is near Sidon/Nablus where Abraham encountered the angel thwarting him from sacrificing his son.
Code:
 News flash!   So the muslims were/ are mistaken?
What else is new, they Got Christ wrong also.
 
ASSUMPTION OF ST. MARY
Revelation 12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Jimmy,

What is it about Rev 12:1 that you think supports the assumption of Mary? BTW, when you speak of the assumption I am assuming you mean the assumption of not only Mary’s soul but also her physical body.
 
Jimmy,

What is it about Rev 12:1 that you think supports the assumption of Mary? BTW, when you speak of the assumption I am assuming you mean the assumption of not only Mary’s soul but also her physical body.
The existence of Blessed Mary’s physical body - Rev 12:1 specifically mentions her feet and her head - i.e. a physical body is seen whereas the great cloud is spiritual without a body at that time. So Mary’s body is seen by John in heaven. I think that is why it is quoted here.
 
Jimmy,

What is it about Rev 12:1 that you think supports the assumption of Mary? BTW, when you speak of the assumption I am assuming you mean the assumption of not only Mary’s soul but also her physical body.
Hello SemperReformada,

Thank you for your post.

I believe that Revelation 12, among other things, does support this doctrine.

Revelation 12 is interesting to this discussion, because among other things, there are a lot of non-Catholic Christians who believe that no one goes to Heaven until after the Second Coming of Christ, even though, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5 2, Kings 2:11, Mathew 17:13, Matthew 27:52 and 1 Thessalonians state that Enoch, Henoch, Moses and Elijah, Elias and others were taken up to Heaven and are there now.

Obviously, Mary is mentioned early on in Revelation’s and before the final conflict. Revelation 12 tells us who the enemy of Satan is, and who Satan "went off to wage war against" -

"Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus…"
* (Rev. 12:17). *

Revelations 12 not only tells us that St. Mary is already in Heaven by this point but that she is “royalty” -

***"…***a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars…" (Rev 12:1).

And, there is no doubt who this “woman” is, because in Rev. 12:5 states,

*"****She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne." ***

So, does Revelation 12 help to support the belief in the Assumption of Mary? I believe that the answer is obvious.

Now, I know what you are going to say, “The woman in Revelation 12 is the Church” and you would be correct. Revelation 12 represents Israel, the Church, Eve and Mary…

"The Woman in Revelation 12 is part of the fusion imagery/polyvalent symbolism that is found in the book. She has four referents: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary."

"Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16)."


More Here at Catholic Answers, article titled -“THE WOMAN OF REVELATIONS 12”

If Mary is already in Heaven by this point, then how did she get there? Do you believe that God would do this for others, like Moses and Elijah and not for the “favored one” (Lk 1:28) , Mary, the Mother of God?

"In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."
(Luke 1:26-28)

Your Thoughts?
 
The existence of Blessed Mary’s physical body - Rev 12:1 specifically mentions her feet and her head - i.e. a physical body is seen whereas the great cloud is spiritual without a body at that time. So Mary’s body is seen by John in heaven. I think that is why it is quoted here.
Thank you.
 
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