Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
So mortal sinners are not assured heaven, unless they repent. Do I have that right? And if they don’t repent, they’ve never been saved? Okay. so the only way you are assured of heaven is if you avoid mortal sin after being born again or are repentent when you do. Do I have that right?

Not withstanding that you’ve taken it upon yourself to define what is a mortal sin, you still have created a situation where salvation is not assured. That’s a fundamental shift in thinking. Keep following the Spirit and you’ll reach the natural conclusion for yourself…

By the way, in your example, committing mortal sin is very much like committing adultery, it breaks our relationship. After doing so, it takes a lot to be reconciled → hence, sacramental confession is required.

 

[brb3]

Great Apologetics Paul C !!

If any Protestant will truly perform Examination of Conscience, they must admit they have often fallen short of high calling In Christ. Every Protestant pastor or scholar I’ve ever talked to, or read/heard sermons …freely admit major sins, while living Christian life, after their Baptisms.

They often call the flock to repentance, to renewal of Christian commitment ( some term Rededication of Life to Christ). Few however openly walk the aisles and take pastor’s hand and repent, and ask prayers of the brethren to help them with their intentions.

I know I wouldn’t walk the aisle… seeing myself as OSAS, with my recent failings already Pre-Known to Christ, and thus, by definition, Forgiven IN ADVANCE, by my ‘one & done’ conversion confession.

But, I was never totally sure about this. I didn’t sleep well, and at most I’d only say a private prayer of contrition, and YES, that always helped a lot. So, deep down I knew they weren’t ‘pre-forgiven’, and needed to be confessed …and suffering served for them, just as God required of David.

 

[pocohombre]

Jesus will accept all those that come to Him, including of course those that the Father directs his way (some are predestined for heaven)

 

[pocohombre]

Not withstanding that you’ve taken it upon yourself to define what is a mortal sin

Well perhaps, but probably defined by church folk way before me, somewhat like yourself, that is church folk in your church defined it for you also long time ago .

you still have created a situation where salvation is not assured.

 

[pocohombre]

True …Catholics acknowledge only one Rebirth/Adoption…but, we understand we can walk away from it, and forsake our In Christ status. As in Prodigal son ways, like David did, as I did, and David & I had to be recovered ( not reborn ) via repentance/confession/penance !!!

Am I wrong in seeing the lack of consistency, for how can a new born man, yes, having two natures, the old and the new, go to hell ? If the once reborn fall, is out of grace but still reborn, and die before repenting or before even having the desire to do so, the reborn man would go to hell ?

 

[pocohombre]

So if you can’t trust in your own view of self-righteousness, how can you be truly assured of your salvation? How can you judge yourself?

Paul judged himself, and he also let the Lord judge him. We can judge, but Christ said if we do, to judge righteously. It is possible with His light. Self righteous is just that, one’s own light apart from His light Again is not our assurance, even your hope, in His righteousness ?

 

[pocohombre]

Jesus protects those that come willingly to him. but he doesn’t force us to come to him…

I believe St John says something that He gives us the will to come. Yes, I believe in free will, but He sure knows how to arrest us, even quite violently. Look at St. Paul. I have been told that somewhere in scripture it talks of God pursuing us much like the pursuit of a wild stallion, running away in the opposite direction of the lassoer. That HS rope gets around our neck and we slow down, but fight and kick and jump it all the way, till we tire out, and give up, and become quite still.

 

[guanophore]

this is what the Bible seems to teach.

You make a good point. All theology that is grounded in the Reformation comes to people from what “the bible seems to teach”. This is a major departure from receiving from the Apostles what is taught, and using that One Faith to correctly understand the Scriptures.

I think we all agree that that is very dangerous. We need God’s perspective, not our own regarding our “righteousness.”

Yes, I expect we would all agree on this.

And remember, Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” So I ask you your own question, “Why can’t you believe Jesus?”

We do! He made it clear that if we want to JUMP OUT of His hand, He will allow it. Love is free, and not coercive. We are made in HIs image and likeness, and as such, have the freedom to choose to leave Him.

**Jesus says, 35..."I am the bread of life. ...

Seems pretty clear what He is saying. If you believe in Jesus, then you will never be lost - you will be raised “up at the last day.” I would not expect Jesus, the Good Shepherd, to lose any of the Sheep given to Him by the Father (or drawn to Him by the Father per v. 44).
**

Yes, it seems clear He is saying that. However, we don’t create a doctrine based upon one passage, or a handful of passages. He also clearly says other things (complimentary aspects of salvation) elsewhere, and we integrate the WHOLE of scripture.
OldProf;10362515:

 And consider Paul:

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Once again, pretty clear, the Elect are chosen and sealed. If all my sins were in the future, then it seems to follow that all my sins are forgiven IF (big “little” word, IF) I actually am one of the Elect.

Indeed it does. And it also says that those who are sealed and have become partakers of His divine nature can fall from grace, so that their last state is worse than the first.

And more Paul:

38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Romans 8:38-39 ESV, full context is all about God’s everlasting love in Romans 8:31-39.)

That is another example. Nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” means that even we, who of course are created, and created with our own free will, but even that will not “be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” That is a fantastic revelation! Nothing will separate us (the Elect, the Sheep) from the Love of God!

Yes, he created us by and for His love, and He will continue loving us, even as He watches us choose to walk through the gates of hell. This love that frees us to choose should not be confused with salvation. God loves every soul He creates, and desires for all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, but this does not mean that all those He loves will be saved. Here is a scriptural example of how Jesus allows those He loves to walk away from salvation:

Mark 10:21-22
1 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

 

[guanophore]

(And I could go on with many more examples, but we already have a strong case and we need to press on…)

Yes. When one cherry picks verses, and discounts those that seem to indicate different than the eisegesis, one can give many examples and make a strong case. This method has been used to justify discrimination, subjugation of races and genders, and slavery.

Now, with that as a backdrop, then the explicit Greek - so very clear - in John 10:28 states that Jesus’ sheep will never, not now or at any future time, perish. When do ANY of Jesus sheep perish? Never. Jesus says clearly, never. Completely consistent, and the full context of the verses above will corroborate the conclusion - the Elect, the Sheep, have everlasting life and never perish. The Good Shepherd doesn’t lose any sheep.

Well, news flash. The human soul is created to be eternal. The goats don’t “perish” either. They have everlasting separation from God, but they don’t cease to exist.

Jude 7
7 Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by **undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. **

If I have John 10:28 as a baseline - a standard indisputable fact because of the indisputable Greek - AND THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT - then I can understand what Jesus is talking about in Luke 8:13,15 regarding the rocky soil. Jesus placed those who “believe for a while” among those who were not saved, in contrast to those who persevere in belief.

Yes, but 3/4 of the seeds did sprout, and begin to grow. Many have the seal of the HS, and begin the journey, but don’t complete it.

Remember, if a person can become a Sheep that then perishes, then Jesus was wrong!

But not if a sheep goes back to being a goat!

2 Peter 2:21-22
1 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment that was passed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb,

“The dog turns back to its own vomit,”

and,

“The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud.”

You would like us to reject the teaching of the Apostle, and take Calvin’s view that these people never really “knew the way of righteousness” or only did so intellectually, and not experientally. But the apostles taught that one cannot become a partaker of the divine nature unless one is sealed in baptism.

 

[brb3]

I believe St John says something that He gives us the will to come. Yes, I believe in free will, but He sure knows how to arrest us, even quite violently. Look at St. Paul. I have been told that somewhere in scripture it talks of God pursuing us much like the pursuit of a wild stallion, running away in the opposite direction of the lassoer. That HS rope gets around our neck and we slow down, but fight and kick and jump it all the way, till we tire out, and give up, and become quite still.

Interesting … lets examine that passage, probably OT reference. Find it & cite for us.

Yes, I was a wild one …but, I didn’t experience it in same way you describe above. For me, the more I sinned, the less I felt God’s presence. Finally, I had practically zero remorse for sins. I was the only King in my life once again. No regrets, no HS left inside to convict me of error. It was almost the opposite of what you describe.

But, as all Prodigals probably discover, the party ride finally ends …and reality rings. And, we recall the Banquet Days we once shared with the Father, … in the distant past. And, we slowly look up from the depths of the hole we are in, and the long journey home begins. And, God, via the Good Shepherd, And Good Samaritan, saw to my free will desire, to be recovered, and opened the door of the Church Universal, that ONE HOLY, and Apostolic Church …which has the Sacraments of salvation, to effect our healing & means to perseverance !! Especially the Eucharist, w/o which we thirst and hunger, til we partake rightly, and often. The food and drink of Immortality !

 

[paul_c]

Paul judged himself, and he also let the Lord judge him. We can judge, but Christ said if we do, to judge righteously. It is possible with His light. Self righteous is just that, one’s own light apart from His light Again is not our assurance, even your hope, in His righteousness ?

Jesus will judge rightly, for sure. But as for us, we are told"
[BIBLEDRB]matt 7: 1-5[/BIBLEDRB]

Keep in mind, how little we see of the truth. In all humility, we can not judge.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post

Yes, God calls all of us, but not all respond positively, even when shown great miracles. In John 6, most of Jesus disciples left when confronted with the bread of life discourse, despite having seen him feed 5000 with 5 loaves and two fish and walk on water to boot. In luke 8, in the parable of the sower, many hear the word of God gladly but then fall away when confronted with persecution or the anxieties of life.

Now granted, God does predestine some to have bigger roles in the salvation of others such as Mary, the Apostles, the prophets, Paul, and many saints as well. But that doesn’t mean He isn’t calling each and every person in His own way. He loves us all and He made us perfect for the job He wants us to do. As Paul points out in the Body of Christ discourse (1Corinthians 12), all jobs are important and necessary. We just need to cooperate with the graces we are given. To those which more has been given, more will be expected.

 

[pocohombre]

Interesting … lets examine that passage, probably OT reference. Find it & cite for us.

Yes, I was a wild one …but, I didn’t experience it in same way you describe above. For me, the more I sinned, the less I felt God’s presence. Finally, I had practically zero remorse for sins. I was the only King in my life once again. No regrets, no HS left inside to convict me of error. It was almost the opposite of what you describe.

 

[pocohombre]

Yes, God calls all of us, but not all respond positively, even when shown great miracles. In John 6, most of Jesus disciples left when confronted with the bread of life discourse, despite having seen him feed 5000 with 5 loaves and two fish and walk on water to boot. In luke 8, in the parable of the sower, many hear the word of God gladly but then fall away when confronted with persecution or the anxieties of life.

Now granted, God does predestine some to have bigger roles in the salvation of others such as Mary, the Apostles, the prophets, Paul, and many saints as well. But that doesn’t mean He isn’t calling each and every person in His own way. He loves us all and He made us perfect for the job He wants us to do. As Paul points out in the Body of Christ discourse (1Corinthians 12), all jobs are important and necessary. We just need to cooperate with the graces we are given. To those which more has been given, more will be expected.

So predestination is only for a select few ? There are two categories of of effectual calling ?

 

[pocohombre]

Jesus will judge rightly, for sure. But as for us, we are told"
[BIBLEDRB]matt 7: 1-5[/BIBLEDRB]

Keep in mind, how little we see of the truth. In all humility, we can not judge.

Is there a pattern ? We can not judge ? We can not have assurance ? We can not be predestined (like the big saints) ? “For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged”, 1Cor.11:31. John 7:24- “Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgement”. Discernment is similar to judge- " But how is it you do not discern this time ? Why even of yourselves do you not judge what is right ?", St. Luke 12:56,57. "Judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way ", Rom 14:13. “Do ye not judge them that are within ?”, 1 Cor 5:12. “Do you not know the saints shall judge the world, and if so are you unworthy to judge the smallest matter ?”, 1 Cor 6:1. “Judge ye what I say.” 1 Cor. 10:15 “Judge for yourselves…”, 1 Cor11:13

 

[pocohombre]

“The dog turns back to its own vomit,”

 

[pocohombre]

Yes, but 3/4 of the seeds did sprout, and begin to grow. Many have the seal of the HS, and begin the journey, but don’t complete it.

 

[paul_c]

So predestination is only for a select few ? There are two categories of of effectual calling ?

Yes, a few are selectively called by God for special holiness. Mary is the most obvious biblical case, being called by the Archangel Gabriel to be the mother of God. Surely. you see the uniqueness in that. Paul too, was called under special circumstances.

Most people do not recieve the grace to see Jesus or Mary or an archangel directly. But we are all called in our own way and no one is predestined to be condemned.

 

[pocohombre]

Well, news flash. The human soul is created to be eternal. The goats don’t “perish” either. They have everlasting separation from God, but they don’t cease to exist.

 

[paul_c]

How is it that we get different meanings from the same simple saying. By itself these verses may lead to the wrong conclusion. However, even with them alone St. Peter gives us the clue to their nature(those that washed but fall away), that is, unchanged nature. Especially in Jewish custom, a pig is a pig is a pig. You can wash and dress him up, but by nature he is still a pig, and returns to the mire. Another words, he was not a pig reborn into a sheep, to then return to being a pig, as you suggest. The use of the word sow is quite appropriate to show the nature never changed, wisely used here in Holy Scripture. Also these verses dealing with false teachers, apostate ones, coming out of the church, but were never really “of” the church is plainly stated by St. John in 1st 2:19, “They went out from us but they were not of us: for had they been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us”. “For who so ever is born of God…His seed remaineth in him” 1 John 3:9