Yes, i know.paul c;10393631 [QUOTE said:]Two issues: because of the persecutions, there were very few dedicated church buildings. Until the edict of milan (313AD), most masses were held in homes.
Yes, i know. Don’t know if you had more in 4-8 th centuries.There are still millions of adult catechumens today in the church. Lots of the people you are talking to on theses pages are in fact adult converts (many have the tag line " swam the Tiber in xxxx).
Well, it’s not my theory, but those that have studied earlier architecture, which means you must study church buildings, the apex of the science back then. The study of Notre Dame, I believe is where I came across. the “theory”.So your theory that church architecture changed because of the practice of infant baptized doesn’t hold water.
So born again souls can go to hell ? That is those baptized are born again, stray and suffer damnation. Or do they spiritually die, lose their “born againess”, then go to Hell ? But if they repent before they die, they don’t need to be born again, just confess to priest . Trying to get some consistency .Poco …
The first century Church practiced infant baptism. That is clearly scriptural & provable. But, Catholics also recognize the additional need for a baptized infant to be confirmed when at age of accountability. Confirmation ‘completes’ infant Baptism.
Perhaps those wayward Catholics you know never elected to present themselves for Confirmation. Indeed quite a few never stayed with the Church, and never made that Free Will choice to be confirmed in HS by Bishop’s hands.
Also, some of the confirmed will be pulled away, and fall from grace, going the Prodigal route. That’s why Catholic’s well know / admit that OSAS is inconsistent with reality & Scripture.
Being born again, doesn’t mean you won’t die and go to hell if you commit mortal sin. John talks about this in[BIBLEDRB] 1 John 5:13-17[/BIBLEDRB]So born again souls can go to hell ? That is those baptized are born again, stray and suffer damnation. Or do they spiritually die, lose their “born againess”, then go to Hell ? But if they repent before they die, they don’t need to be born again, just confess to priest . Trying to get some consistency .
Understand . It is different from protetstant paradigm.When you are born again, it is like you are a new creature (maturity level will vary, but for our talk, it would be at least a consenting older child at least). THis soul is justified by the blood, is seen thru the lens of the Blood , is perfect though not mature, and still subject to battle with old man (flesh). When he sins, the child does not die, is still justified, even if by the skin of his teeth( a sliver of saving faith). Reconciliation is the newer man getting victory over older man.This justified child can not go to hell (duh-he is justified), unlesss he totally recants, blasphemes the HS, to his dying breath.Being born again, doesn’t mean you won’t die and go to hell if you commit mortal sin. John talks about this in[BIBLEDRB] 1 John 5:13-17[/BIBLEDRB]
You can be born again in baptism only once, but you can be reconciled with the Lord through the sacrament of reconciliation as often as you desire to be reconciled (God will always take the repentant sinner back.
Absolutely… what is Christ warning the churches about in Rev. CHAP 2 & 3 ?So born again souls can go to hell ? That is those baptized are born again, stray and suffer damnation. Or do they spiritually die, lose their “born againess”, then go to Hell ? But if they reExcept we pent before they die, they don’t need to be born again, just confess to priest . Trying to get some consistency .
When one is born again he is a Child of God. This does not go away. It is like the Prodigal Son. Even when he was sleeping with the pigs his father still considered him to be his son, and his sins were forgiven too. But being his father’s son did him no good as long as he did not repent and return to his father.So born again souls can go to hell ? That is those baptized are born again, stray and suffer damnation. Or do they spiritually die, lose their “born againess”, then go to Hell ? But if they repent before they die, they don’t need to be born again, just confess to priest . Trying to get some consistency .
Yes, this was pointed out earlier, that the prodigal is always justified, a son. We do not have him dying and going to hell. It’s like show me a story where one that is born again goes to hell ? Of course there is free will, and the assurance comes from the Father’s love and drawing power. The prodigal son shows this. Many identify with the prodigal, but somewhat incorrectly . Many are not “sons”, are not born again. Many are in name only, like many of the Jews at the time of the story…Others say it is more about a relationship out of "conditional vs unconditional foundation , or a legal vs a love/grace foundation. Perhaps a bit like Job, where he knew God, but after his ordeal, he really knew God . Justification comes by grace, no more self-justifying for Job or the prodigal. The prodigal had a plan for justification (or was it sanctification ?), but the father would have none of it-no conditions-but yes a “broken heart”, a turning to the Father). …The prodigal is not about how a saved soul can lose his salvation. It is about a Nation, it is about circumcision a Jewish rite for obedience, needing to be a thing of the heart.When one is born again he is a Child of God. This does not go away. It is like the Prodigal Son. Even when he was sleeping with the pigs his father still considered him to be his son, and his sins were forgiven too. But being his father’s son did him no good as long as he did not repent and return to his father.
We know the father still considered the son as his child because he saw him coming and ran out to meet him, in spite of the pig dung, and provided him with garments for the feast.
We become born from above, born again, only once and we then we remain children of God forever. But if we turn from our Father we must repent and come back. If we do not repent and come back, we remain away from our Father.
(Note that the son was allowed to leave, because he was a son and not a slave. Runaway slaves are chased down and dragged back, but not a son, because a son is a son and is not held involuntarily. And we are sons of God.)
Absolutely… what is Christ warning the churches about in Rev. CHAP 2 & 3 ?
Many would say the sin unto death is not a spiritual death but a mortal death. One must not contradict the "knowing assurance of Salvation with your definition of “sin unto death”.Being born again, doesn’t mean you won’t die and go to hell if you commit mortal sin. John talks about this in[BIBLEDRB] 1 John 5:13-17[/BIBLEDRB]
Justification, sanctification, glorification are biblical terms. Perhaps their further development by the reformers was needed to reform what had become of them, much like the term trinity was employed and further “developed” when needed to confront “confusion” on that topic. Did the trinity detractors say they wouldn’t believe the newly invented term, made by man hundreds of years after their long held tradition ?I think this is one of the most fundamental differences between the modern “different” gospels and the Apostolic faith. It relates back to fundamental differences on the nature of man, the nature of God, and the nature of salvation.
In all these areas, the Reformers made departures, some more than others. But in most cases, the grace that produces the good works in us are separated from the grace that saves us, so it is said:
Apparently this differentiation is necessary somehow to support the other doctrines. Such a concept was foreign to the Apostles and their disciples, and indeed, throughout the history of Christendom.
brb3;10406713:
Yes, it applies to churches !! Who said it doesn’t apply to the RCC ?Please, this applies to churches, yet you do not apply it to your own. Can the Roman Catholic Church lose it’s lamp stand ? Can she ever become lukewarm ? Can she ever bear evil amongst her ? Can she ever be slow to repentance ? Can not these questions be put to the Orthodox ? To the Protestants ?
Certainly the Catholic church has had its many problems, always in need of circumspection and correction. But, it has not failed or been spat out. But, some within her, the Korah’s, have rebelled and been cast out from her, in periodic purges. And, many of they have failed, utterly, apart from her.
pocohombre;10409160:
Most Catholics say it does not apply to CC because of the promises of Christ to always be with and guide her. They say Revelations deals with aspects/congregations within her, but not “her” itself, an exempt Patriarch, for her perseverance is guaranteed.Yes, it applies to churches !! Who said it doesn’t apply to the RCC ?
Certainly the Catholic church has had its many problems, always in need of circumspection and correction. But, it has not failed or been spat out. But, some within her, the Korah’s, have rebelled and been cast out from her, in periodic purges. And, many of they have failed, utterly, apart from her.
brb3;10409529:
--------------------------------@-------------------@---------"------"------------------------Most Catholics say it does not apply to CC because of the promises of Christ to always be with and guide her. They say Revelations deals with aspects/congregations within her, but not “her” itself, an exempt Patriarch, for her perseverance is guaranteed.
Yes, the Catholic Church will never fail …her perseverance guaranteed, by promise of Christ !! But, the tares will always grow among the wheat, many of them claiming the Church needs to follow them, not the Pope and Bishops.
Rebellions occur in every generation. Satan never gives up the fight, via his Korah tares, to take down the Church of the Apostles…
Ah, and see this is precisely what is mortal sin. When we do sin mortally, we totally recant by our actions. The Spirit of God is not in a murderer. If he does not repent before death, and seek to be reconciled to God, he dies in his unrepentence. This in essence IS blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Hell is mortal sin taken to the infinite. When one blasphemes the Holy Spirit, “he will be guilty of an everlasting sin.”. That is, he dies unrepentent, telling the Spirit of God to take a hike.Understand . It is different from protetstant paradigm.When you are born again, it is like you are a new creature (maturity level will vary, but for our talk, it would be at least a consenting older child at least). THis soul is justified by the blood, is seen thru the lens of the Blood , is perfect though not mature, and still subject to battle with old man (flesh). When he sins, the child does not die, is still justified, even if by the skin of his teeth( a sliver of saving faith). Reconciliation is the newer man getting victory over older man.This justified child can not go to hell (duh-he is justified), unlesss he totally recants, blasphemes the HS, to his dying breath.
This article might be of interest:Many would say the sin unto death is not a spiritual death but a mortal death. One must not contradict the "knowing assurance of Salvation with your definition of “sin unto death”.
To me, the point of the prodigal son story is our Father’s forgiveness. But, had the son despaired or had insufficient faith to return, he would have remained and died with the pigs, away from his father and his forgiveness and grace. In other words, hell. In this case we would have had someone who was “born again,” yet left of his free will and and did not return, hell.Yes, this was pointed out earlier, that the prodigal is always justified, a son. We do not have him dying and going to hell. It’s like show me a story where one that is born again goes to hell ? Of course there is free will, and the assurance comes from the Father’s love and drawing power. The prodigal son shows this. Many identify with the prodigal, but somewhat incorrectly . Many are not “sons”, are not born again. Many are in name only, like many of the Jews at the time of the story…Others say it is more about a relationship out of "conditional vs unconditional foundation , or a legal vs a love/grace foundation. Perhaps a bit like Job, where he knew God, but after his ordeal, he really knew God . Justification comes by grace, no more self-justifying for Job or the prodigal. The prodigal had a plan for justification (or was it sanctification ?), but the father would have none of it-no conditions-but yes a “broken heart”, a turning to the Father). …The prodigal is not about how a saved soul can lose his salvation. It is about a Nation, it is about circumcision a Jewish rite for obedience, needing to be a thing of the heart.
pocohombre;10410219:
--------------------------------@-------------------@---------"------"------------------------brb3;10409529:
Most Catholics say it does not apply to CC because of the promises of Christ to always be with and guide her. They say Revelations deals with aspects/congregations within her, but not “her” itself, an exempt Patriarch, for her perseverance is guaranteed.
Yes, the Catholic Church will never fail …her perseverance guaranteed, by promise of Christ !! But, the tares will always grow among the wheat, many of them claiming the Church needs to follow them, not the Pope and Bishops.
Rebellions occur in every generation. Satan never gives up the fight, via his Korah tares, to take down the Church of the Apostles… So Rev church warnings does not apply to CC, or only some of them ?
brb3;10410386:
Poco …pocohombre;10410219:
So Rev church warnings does not apply to CC, or only some of them ?
It applied to the Churches named, in John’s first century in a ‘literal’ way,…and to all since, in a figurative sense. Any body of believers, calling themselves a church, needs to compare themselves with all those named, and be sure they aren’t committing similar error, … & to do those good works being performed by early churches for which they were commended.
brb3;10410386:
It applies to individual congregations, not to “denominations.” And then to particular individuals in them. Not all persons in the congregations warned were guilty. Certainly not to the Church as a whole. Christ is head of the universal church so the universaal church cannot stray.pocohombre;10410219:
So Rev church warnings does not apply to CC, or only some of them ?