Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

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PeaceInChrist said:
You also didn’t actually address my argument, as you never do: he places importance in other sections on the literal Incarnation, but for some reason, in this section, denounces the Gnostics based on a specific result of the Incarnation: the Eucharist. Why? He condemns them for denying it is the flesh of Christ. Why? Maybe because, like the others, he believed it was Christ’s flesh?
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I did answer. Why ? Because the sacramental memorium is our best representative of our gospel ,that Christ died physically for all mankind on Calvary . The gnostics denied this apparently by saying communion was not thanksgiving for His flesh atonement. How do you know Ignatius did not mean it figuratively ? How do you know he did not mean it is His flesh while remaining bread ? Again, we differ on scripture,“this is my flesh” from the very words of Jesus, so why shouldn’t we differ on Ignatius . Tertullian says is is “the figure of my body”-showing there was a “veritable body”. Augustine says it is a sign, a figure while saying the bread is His body and the cup His blood and we are one loaf ( is that literal too ?)
 
pocohombre said:
I did answer. Why ? Because the sacramental memorium is our best representative of our gospel ,that Christ died physically for all mankind on Calvary . The gnostics denied this apparently by saying communion was not thanksgiving for His flesh atonement. How do you know Ignatius did not mean it figuratively ? How do you know he did not mean it is His flesh while remaining bread ? Again, we differ on scripture,“this is my flesh” from the very words of Jesus, so why shouldn’t we differ on Ignatius . Tertullian says is is “the figure of my body”-showing there was a “veritable body”. Augustine says it is a sign, a figure while saying the bread is His body and the cup His blood and we are one loaf ( is that literal too ?)
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I think you mistakenly believe that the CC rejects the symbolic aspect of the Eucharist. She does not.

We just do not proclaim that it is ONLY symbolic.
 
PRmerger said:
Sure.

What’s wrong with that? :confused:
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Yes, His body and blood at communion are symbolic of Calvary reality, but the elements are literal body and blood per CC teaching right ? I thought my Father quotes were not to confuse the elements as literal . So one says it is symbolic/figurative to show literal Calvary, the other says it is a literal symbol to show literal Calvary. Both show the obedience to “remember” by eating. Perhaps that is why both were allowed to be debated like Radbertus/Ratranmus in 800’s and finally settled the Lateran council centuries later, and lastly at Trent…
 
pocohombre said:
Yes, His body and blood at communion are symbolic of Calvary reality, but the elements are literal body and blood per CC teaching right ?
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No, poco.

The bread and wine are symbolic of Christ as well as literally the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
I thought my Father quotes were not to confuse the elements as literal
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Firstly, Tertullian is not an Early Church Father. Rather, he is referred to as an early ecclesial writer.

Origen as well.

As far as St. Augustine’s quote: no, he is not denying the literal presence of Christ.
 
pocohombre said:
I did answer. Why ? Because the sacramental memorium is our best representative of our gospel ,that Christ died physically for all mankind on Calvary . The gnostics denied this apparently by saying communion was not thanksgiving for His flesh atonement. How do you know Ignatius did not mean it figuratively ? How do you know he did not mean it is His flesh while remaining bread ? Again, we differ on scripture,“this is my flesh” from the very words of Jesus, so why shouldn’t we differ on Ignatius . Tertullian says is is “the figure of my body”-showing there was a “veritable body”. Augustine says it is a sign, a figure while saying the bread is His body and the cup His blood and we are one loaf ( is that literal too ?)
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The Church, as PRMerger says, takes it as the literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, and at the same time, as full of symbolism. Augustine says that the actual bread and wine are Christ’s body and blood. Here is a good selection from him that explains the spiritual understanding of the Mystery of the Eucharist:
Augustine in "Exposition on Psalm 99":
In hesitation I turn unto Christ, since I am herein seeking Himself: and I discover how the earth may be worshipped without impiety, how His footstool may be worshipped without impiety. For He took upon Him earth from earth; because flesh is from earth, and He received flesh from the flesh of Mary. And because He walked here in very flesh, and gave that very flesh to us to eat for our salvation; and no one eats that flesh, unless he has first worshipped: we have found out in what sense such a footstool of our Lord’s may be worshipped, and not only that we sin not in worshipping it, but that we sin in not worshipping.

But does the flesh give life? Our Lord Himself, when He was speaking in praise of this same earth, said, “It is the Spirit that quickens, the flesh profits nothing.”…But when our Lord praised it, He was speaking of His own flesh, and He had said, “Except a man eat My flesh, he shall have no life in him.” John 6:54 Some disciples of His, about seventy, were offended, and said, “This is an hard saying, who can hear it?” And they went back, and walked no more with Him.

It seemed unto them hard that He said, “Except you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, you have no life in you:” they received it foolishly, they thought of it carnally, and imagined that the Lord would cut off parts from His body, and give unto them; and they said, “This is a hard saying.” It was they who were hard, not the saying; for unless they had been hard, and not meek, they would have said unto themselves, He says not this without reason, but there must be some latent mystery herein. They would have remained with Him, softened, not hard: and would have learned that from Him which they who remained, when the others departed, learned. For when twelve disciples had remained with Him, on their departure, these remaining followers suggested to Him, as if in grief for the death of the former, that they were offended by His words, and turned back. But He instructed them, and says unto them, “It is the Spirit that quickens, but the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” John 6:63

Understand spiritually what I have said; you are not to eat this body which you see; nor to drink that blood which they who will crucify Me shall pour forth. I have commended unto you a certain mystery; spiritually understood, it will quicken. **Although it is needful that this be visibly celebrated, yet it must be spiritually understood. **
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I broke it into paragraphs. He speaks very eloquently of the physical part of the Eucharist as he says we must eat His flesh, but also speaks to the spiritual element, saying it must be spiritually understood. Is it not remarkable how even Augustine was using the same passage to explain the Eucharist, and in the same way, as Catholics today?
 
pocohombre said:
Do you need a council to reform the clergy, make them educated, moral and holy, make them spiritual minded, helping the poor. Did you need a council to make them respectable again ? No what you needed,what happened is that Lutheranism was more spirtually relevant,and catholics /princes left in droves .Then came Igantius the Jesuit and really put forth a good counter attack. He reformed the ckergy as noted above and in several decades many Catholics came back within Germany. That is the way it happened. To say it (Ignatius and reform) may have happened anyway without any Lutheran competition is speculative.
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Yes, they did need a council, because this is how it had been done since the Apostles. To say otherwise is prideful, and to think that the Lutherans are somehow more holy than Catholics, and thus necessary, is a ridiculous statement.

The issues you speak of were, in fact, addressed at councils prior to the Reformation (I was just reading a summary of the Fourth Lateran Council, for instance, which addressed teaching clergy and the poor and reforming the morality of clergy). Whether or not these coucils were heeded by individual bishops is another matter. Simply stating that the entire Church was wrong and heresy and schism were necessary is like saying the Jews needed a schism because they started to misbehave and were exiled. The Jewish faith was as true as ever; it was the individuals that failed. The same is true for those bishops who sought to store up treasure on earth instead of in heaven: it did not make the Church wrong, it made those men wrong.
 
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Poco …

Surely u understand that the wheat & tares are mixed. In the Church are many pretenders. In the first centuries … the true disciples tried to identity & rid the Church of the tares. But, that is a problematic task …and caused much strife & repercussions.

Did Christ tell the scribes & Pharisees to leave the temple & not come back ? No, he worshipped with them, and thereby converted some of them. We are not to expect a pure Church, and history has shown it has never been so. But, Christ continues to feed his flock, via Peter, the Popes & Bishops …and via priests & laity. The Catholic, Universal Church was in the beginning, is now, and every shall be !!
 
PRmerger said:
No, poco.

The bread and wine are symbolic of Christ as well as literally the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

Firstly, Tertullian is not an Early Church Father. Rather, he is referred to as an early ecclesial writer.

Origen as well.

As far as St. Augustine’s quote: no, he is not denying the literal presence of Christ.
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Ok but he did not say it was his body blood soul and divinty either . There is literal presence then ther is CC literal presence.Lutherans believe in literal presence.
 
brb3 said:
In the Church are many pretenders. In the first centuries … the true disciples tried to identity & rid the Church of the tares. But, that is a problematic task …and caused much strife & repercussions
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. It was wose than that .One thing is excommunicate(early church) ,another thing is to “outlaw”-386ad ,even kill, which is what happened later, all the way thru 17-18 century-in many churches.
 
pocohombre said:
. It was wose than that .One thing is excommunicate(early church) ,another thing is to “outlaw”-386ad ,even kill, which is what happened later, all the way thru 17-18 century-in many churches.
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Yes …Times have always been brutal. More people were exterminated in 20th century by dictators & in world wars… than in all of Christendom. But, this world has not yet seen extermination like awaits us in the final Armageddon. So, in the grand scheme of things … the religious killing of heretics was very minimal, and seen as justified, to prevent the cancerous effects upon others of certain heresies.
Nevertheless, Christ died once for all…and we too must take up our crosses in obedience, not rebellion. As u know the Catholic Church has renounced the death sentence. In OT times, God called for it … Saul directed to kill every one of captured Phillistines. Saul failed to do so, and Samuel delivered God’s judgment upon him. It has taken many generations & ages …for the New Israel to finally denounce the sword for good.
 
brb3 said:
Yes …Times have always been brutal. More people were exterminated in 20th century by dictators & in world wars… than in all of Christendom. But, this world has not yet seen extermination like awaits us in the final Armageddon. So, in the grand scheme of things … the religious killing of heretics was very minimal, and seen as justified, to prevent the cancerous effects upon others of certain heresies.
Nevertheless, Christ died once for all…and we too must take up our crosses in obedience, not rebellion. As u know the Catholic Church has renounced the death sentence. In OT times, God called for it … Saul directed to kill every one of captured Phillistines. Saul failed to do so, and Samuel delivered God’s judgment upon him. It has taken many generations & ages …for the New Israel to finally denounce the sword for good.
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Let us not take for granted the freedom of having a baptist church and a Catholic church existing peacefully on the same street corner . This is a "recent’ transpiring ( in America first ?) I know you are thinking disunity but the historic alternative was bloodshed and strife, certainly no good testimony to the world either.
 
PRmerger said:
But we are agreed that St. Augustine’s position is that which the Catholic Church teaches, yes?
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No. The Catholic church teaches transubstantiation. At best Augustine was more in alignment with Lutherans and consubstantiation-the elements are not changed. At worst, from CC point of view, Augustine believed in figurative, but spiritual presence.
 
pocohombre said:
No. The Catholic church teaches transubstantiation. At best Augustine was more in alignment with Lutherans and consubstantiation-the elements are not changed.
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This is just ga-ga la-la nonsense, poco. Nothing that St. Augustine professed is contradictory to transubstantiation.
At worst, from CC point of view, Augustine believed in figurative, but spiritual presence.
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Again, the CC also professes the figurative and spiritual presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Just not ONLY the figurative and spiritual presence.

So not sure why this warrants an 'at worst" comment.
 
brb3 said:
Poco …

Surely u understand that the wheat & tares are mixed. In the Church are many pretenders. In the first centuries … the true disciples tried to identity & rid the Church of the tares. But, that is a problematic task …and caused much strife & repercussions.
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Yes, we covered this before. It was the same in Jesus’s day .Hence many of his parables addressed that .The wheat are regenerated, the tares are not .He stressed to make sure your are wheat and not a tare, not so much if you are wheat, make sure you don’t become a tare again. That is why I think the ten virgins and sower and 4 seeds are about wheat and tares, not wheat staying wheat.
 
PRmerger said:
This is just ga-ga la-la nonsense, poco. Nothing that St. Augustine professed is contradictory to transubstantiation.
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. Yes thought of that but he does not contradict most if not all protestant views either. Maybe we leave it that he does not contradict CC teaching nor does he put it forth as she does today.
 
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