Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

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AC …

All your comments are true … nevertheless, Christ taught us in scripture what is important, namely, what the Apostles learned from him and have retained for us via the Sacraments and the Written Word plus Traditions.

So, I’d say BOTH are right. When we follow his commands, via obedience … he will bless us with the ESSENTIALS, from on high.
 
brb3 said:
AC …

All your comments are true … nevertheless, Christ taught us in scripture what is important, namely, what the Apostles learned from him and have retained for us via the Sacraments and the Written Word plus Traditions.

So, I’d say BOTH are right. When we follow his commands, via obedience … he will bless us with the ESSENTIALS, from on high.
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I respect that comment.

Thank you.
 
WD615 said:
And sorry for posting three in a row, but aren’t we considered righteous by our deeds not that we do our deeds because we are already righteous? If you say we do good works because we are already justified then you contradict scripture. I know that is off topic for the thread so I’m just gonna leave it there
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No you contradict scripture when you say we are justified by our deeds.
 
brb3 said:
I use to buy that explanation, many Protestants do. But, it is wrongo POCO.
There is zero support for it … elsewhere in scripture. Water Baptism is essential Sacrament. The Church has always held so … even from Day 1 of Pentecost … when Peter taught what he had received from Christ.

Christ makes the rules … we are not allow to pick and choose what we will accept/reject.
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I think there is support . Not being baptized does not send one to hell.Not believing does that. Secondly we said on this thread earlier that Cornelius was born again,baptized in HS before water baptism. All people in Acts believe first, that Christ is Lord where once they did not,then they get water baptized. How can one possibly believe properly ,without first being born again,being quickened,born of the spirit? We can not say Jesus is our Lord without the HS, yet this is what is required before water baptism. Do we baptize people who do not believe in the Lord ? NO,hence catechumens,believers who are still learning as a babe in Christ,and are obedient to the command of baptism, as they were obedient to proclaim with there mouth Christ is Lord ,all by the power and grace of HS. Regenerational baptism says we have something good in us before we are born again,for it says we believe first before being born again. Show me an instance where in Acts someone says ,“I do not believe yet but water baptize me so I may”?
 
brb3 said:
This make no sense …

look at what you typed above. You have created a ‘chicken vs egg’ connundrum !

Which is it ?
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Yes typos tend to befuddle .Sorry. I meant to say,“one is saved unto good works and not by good works” and “you (Catholics and others) must show good works to be saved”. Those are two different views.
 
pocohombre said:
I think there is support . Not being baptized does not send one to hell.Not believing does that. Secondly we said on this thread earlier that Cornelius was born again,baptized in HS before water baptism. All people in Acts believe first, that Christ is Lord where once they did not,then they get water baptized. How can one possibly believe properly ,without first being born again,being quickened,born of the spirit? We can not say Jesus is our Lord without the HS, yet this is what is required before water baptism. Do we baptize people who do not believe in the Lord ? NO,hence catechumens,believers who are still learning as a babe in Christ,and are obedient to the command of baptism, as they were obedient to proclaim with there mouth Christ is Lord ,all by the power and grace of HS. Regenerational baptism says we have something good in us before we are born again,for it says we believe first before being born again. Show me an instance where in Acts someone says ,“I do not believe yet but water baptize me so I may”?
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I did not say the order is important … just that we ARE baptized. Normatively, for an adult … its belief, then follows Baptism. We know of at least two exceptions … Paul and ,Cornelius.

Now, for infants … we have the Catholic Baptism before belief. But, don’t get too ‘worked up’ over this … thinking this invalidates their Baptism’s efficacy. Because later, as older Children, they ‘usually’ wish to be Confirmed … which completes their baptism and confers HS on a Catholic child.

Now, if some of your Catholic aquaintances, who left the Church for Protestant one,… claim they never received HS as Catholics, and did so in the Protestant Church … as I said , perhaps they were never Confirmed as Catholic, or had doubts at their Confirmation … for which reason would probably prevent their Enlightment by HS.
 
pocohombre said:
Yes typos tend to befuddle .Sorry. I meant to say,“one is saved unto good works and not by good works” and “you (Catholics and others) must show good works to be saved”. Those are two different views.
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I agree with the first …

Regarding the second : — all Catholics will say they are Reborn via Baptism/Confirmation/Confession Sacraments … via faith, expressed in the SINGLE good work of presenting ourselves at the Altar, affirming our faith and desire for Regeneration / Confirmation in the H.S.—following our Confessions.

And, this singular work, is ‘graced’ to us by our faith---- that Christ has commanded us to follow him in Baptism & Confirmation. As Jesus was washed in Jordan, and then God the Father annointed him with H.S. … so must we. Just as Christ said to John ,“it is fitting that you Baptize me”… so much moreso that we desire and pray to Christ… that he Baptize us with H.S. … when his priest annoints us with oil/hands … at a Catholic’s Confirmation.

Our only work is that we present ourselves at the river Jordan and at the Altar …in order that we follow the Commands of Christ …and receive grace unto Justification/Sanctification/Salvation … not of ‘our’ legalistic works, for no man/woman may boast of those works.
 
pocohombre said:
brb3;10637648:
Can you believe(saving faith) without being regenerated? Sorry ,exceptions to what?
Yes, understand Most were confirmed,actually I think all.
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So then, …they tell u their Confirmations were not efficacious…did not confer HS within?
Ask them, — if they say so (were not efficacious) …ask them why not ?
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brb3 said:
pocohombre;10638769:
So then, …they tell u their Confirmations were not efficacious…did not confer HS within?
Ask them, — if they say so (were not efficacious) …ask them why not ?
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Ok,i’ll ask. So can you believe (in Christ) without being regenerated.
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Now, I’m not trying to troll or anything, im genuinely curious; how do people come to the conclusion that their religion is the only correct religion?
 
soconfused111 said:
Now, I’m not trying to troll or anything, im genuinely curious; how do people come to the conclusion that their religion is the only correct religion?
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Welcome first poster. Yes, your question is like the scripture that says there is a way that seems right to a man but the ways are the ways of death. So how does one know for it seems everybody in the natural will think they are right in their religion/church/walk/talk etc…
 
brb3 said:
pocohombre;10641725:
Yes.

Why did we receive the Sacraments from Christ ?
These [water baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Eucharist] … are essential to our regeneration.
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So one can "believe"without regeneration you say.How is that possible? What do you think regeneration is ?
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brb3 said:
pocohombre;10641725:
Yes.

Why did we receive the Sacraments from Christ ?
These [water baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Eucharist] … are essential to our regeneration.
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The sacraments are not to put the "wind’ of regeneration, of spiritual birth, into a box. What happens to wind when you put it in a box? John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth:so is every one that is born of the spirit”. Is regeneration in a sacrament? Maybe. Is it not in any sacrament ? Maybe. Is it in your church ? Maybe. Is it in my church? Maybe. Where it is mightily today will it be there exactly the same place tomorrow? Don’t you agree the gates of hell can not stop this “wind”?
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pocohombre said:
brb3;10642528:
The sacraments are not to put the "wind’ of regeneration, of spiritual birth, into a box. What happens to wind when you put it in a box? John 3:8 “The wind bloweth where it listeth and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh and whither it goeth:so is every one that is born of the spirit”. Is regeneration in a sacrament? Maybe. Is it not in any sacrament ? Maybe. Is it in your church ? Maybe. Is it in my church? Maybe. Where it is mightily today will it be there exactly the same place tomorrow? Don’t you agree the gates of hell can not stop this “wind”?
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Poco…

What’s with all these ‘maybe’ responses from u ?

Doesn’t a true believer know when they were ‘regenerated’ …when they first experienced the Paraclete within, when they first moved from death to New Life, in CHRISTOS, and became adopted child of the Father ?
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brb3 said:
Doesn’t a true believer know when they were ‘regenerated’ …when they first experienced the Paraclete within, when they first moved from death to New Life, in CHRISTOS, and became adopted child of the Father ?
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Unless he’s a faux believer? Poco has acknowledged that there are those who think they’re saved but aren’t really saved.

And I am still waiting to see how he can tell whether someone is one of those hapless fellows who’s only a faux believer…
 
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