Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[brb3]

Can a reborn, adopted sheep…become a goat again ? And, if so, will God ALWAYS recover that slacker, indifferent agnostic, or full-blown Apostate ?

What does scripture teach, what did Apostles and ECF’s say, what does Catholic Church say on the matter ?

 

[pocohombre]

Frankly, you need to worry about love and less about your assurance of heaven.

Ironically the only one who doesn’t have to worry about assurance is the one who has it. To subdue the worry wrongly maybe false piety, cutting off God’s gift of self preservation, which should lead us to the need for His preservation, that is perfect. Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into perdition. Once we are at first base( assurance) we can go onto second base with love for all.

 

[fbl9]

Ironically the only one who doesn’t have to worry about assurance is the one who has it. To subdue the worry wrongly maybe false piety, cutting off God’s gift of self preservation, which should lead us to the need for His preservation, that is perfect. Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into perdition. Once we are at first base( assurance) we can go onto second base with love for all.

how ever we don’t read any where near this verse there is no need to fear because you are assured of your salvation.

 

[brb3]

This of course makes perfect sense in the Catholic construct, where you must stay in the state of grace to get to heaven, avoiding sin or at least confessing it sacramentally. How does it make sense in the Reformed tradition, when nothing a man does impacts his predestination?

I’m sorry but your interpretation is not consistent with the context of that verse.
Here it is again: [BIBLEDRB]phil 1: 3-11[/BIBLEDRB]
He’s praying that the believers are without offense on the day of judgement. That is completely consistent with the Catholic teaching of staying in the state of grace by loving God and Neighbor and avoiding sin. It is not consistent with a view that their salvation was already assured. Remember we already agreed that Paul was writing to true believers.

Again, you need to take all scripture into account, not just an isolated verse… Of course no one can take you away from Jesus. But you Can turn away from him. God will not force you to love Him. There is nothing in this verse in consistent with Catholic Teaching. In fact, the Catholic interpretation is consistent with the rest of John’s gospel. How does the Reformed tradition reconcile the parable of the vine and the branches:
[BIBLEDRB]John 15: 1-10[/BIBLEDRB]

These verses are actually easy to understand in the Catholic Tradition.
Hopefully I’ve done them justice.

John 15: 7-8 above…Here Christ talking to his redeemed…and says:

If we abide in him …‘we can ask anything of him, and he will do it’.
And, next verse 8, he calls All the sheep to follow him in discipleship.

We MUST follow…to remain/ abide IN CHRISTOS. If we don’t…we are left behind, grieving HS, and soon back in Mortal sins

 

[paul_c]

Ironically the only one who doesn’t have to worry about assurance is the one who has it. To subdue the worry wrongly maybe false piety, cutting off God’s gift of self preservation, which should lead us to the need for His preservation, that is perfect. Fear Him who can cast both body and soul into perdition. Once we are at first base( assurance) we can go onto second base with love for all.

Judge not, lest you be judged. This applies to ourselves as well. We are not in the position to judge whether we are saved. That is for Jesus to do.

 

[brb3]

Judge not, lest you be judged. This applies to ourselves as well. We are not in the position to judge whether we are saved. That is for Jesus to do.

Nevertheless, each of us needs perform periodic EXAMINATION OF CONSCIENCE…and inquire of the Lord as to our obedience and use of gifts. We are either measuring up to our calling, or we are lacking in one or more areas. We are either running the race well, or not on track to finish.
So, since we can’t be objective …we ask the Lord to share the truth with us. As scripture teaches, if we ask rightly, the Lord will answer our prayer.

 

[pocohombre]

how ever we don’t read any where near this verse there is no need to fear because you are assured of your salvation.

Not sure I read you right, but that is right, if you are assured of salvation, then and only then is there no need to fear for salvation again. It would be like doubting His word and power to deliver on said promise.

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10323589:

Question for you, Poco…how can you start being saved/born again…unless you first accept God’s grace that He freely gives to you to be born again?

And if not for God’s grace, how does one become born again or saved? Does this not involve an act of free will to accept God’s grace?

Where am I trampling free will ? I’ve said before, one side of the coin says free will, the other side predestination.

 

[pocohombre]

Judge not, lest you be judged. This applies to ourselves as well. We are not in the position to judge whether we are saved. That is for Jesus to do.

Yes and no. St. Paul says he judges himself (so others don’t have to ), and I believe he says the Lord Judges him also. Is it false piety to say I can’t judge whether I am saved or not ? Do you not have the Spirit of adoption, crying Abba, Father ? It is like the physical world, and does a man say, “I can’t judge if I am alive or not”.

 

[pablope]

pablope;10324850:

Where am I trampling free will ? I’ve said before, one side of the coin says free will, the other side predestination.

Huh…

I am asking for you to explain your response to paulc:

paulc said: God’s grace is freely given. But not everyone cooperates with grace.

Poco responded: You can’t unless you are saved/born again.

So my question is: How can you start being saved/born again…unless you first accept God’s grace that He freely gives to you to be born again?

paulc said: God’s love is freely given, but not everyone loves God back

Poco responded: You can’t unless you are saved/born again.

Same question: How can you start being saved/born again…unless you first accept God’s grace/love that He freely gives to you to be born again?

Can you explain the conundrum here?

 

[pocohombre]

Can a reborn, adopted sheep…become a goat again ? And, if so, will God ALWAYS recover that slacker, indifferent agnostic, or full-blown Apostate ?

What does scripture teach, what did Apostles and ECF’s say, what does Catholic Church say on the matter ?

From our limited knowledge into a man’s heart sure. From God’s, no If one becomes a goat, he was never a sheep. There are such things as a miscarriage ( seed not planted deeply).

 

[pablope]

pablope;10324850:

Where am I trampling free will ?

I’ve said before, one side of the coin says free will, the other side predestination

.

I do have another question, PocoH…so which side is right? Both cannot be correct, so how does one determine which is right and which is in error?

 

[pocohombre]

How does this work in practice? How did the Spirit bear witness to your spirit? A conversion experience? A mystical episode?

Were the ancient Israelites children of God, saints, in the same sense Christians are children of God?

And you, member of the pillar of truth Church do not know that OT saints had to be regenerated, born again to see the kingdom ? Sorry, couldn’t help using the Lord’s phraseology with similar question from Nicodemus. NT saints however have the Indwelling of God himself, a true temple. Both ( NT and OT ) have to be born again, be born of the spirit, to be reconnected to God again, and both by faith. How did St. Peter know and confess Christ was the Messiah ? Is not Jesus alive today ? Is there not a Holy Spirit ? When He rebirths our dead spirit can we not then commune, sup with Him ? What do you think He most wants to say to us ? What does your new heart long for ? Is this mystical or surely natural to the spiritual world. The book of Acts is full of conversion stories, as are the airwaves today, even on Catholic radio. A before and after person. Kind of like if you just met, really met, Jesus. Way beyond head knowledge.

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10326306:

I do have another question, PocoH…so which side is right? Both cannot be correct, so how does one determine which is right and which is in error?

The coin gets you in. It works . They are not two different coins.

 

[pablope]

pablope;10326366:

The coin gets you in. It works . They are not two different coins.

Hmm…more confusion, Poco.

So what you are saying, God has two minds, and cannot decide which side to chose?

So, again, which side is correct and which side is not? You said it works…so how does it work, having two sides? God has two sides?

Which side will get one to heaven? One is following heresy and one is not…so, why don’t you clear up the confusion, tell us catholics here, how can we tell which side is the correct side?

 

[brb3]

From our limited knowledge into a man’s heart sure. From God’s, no If one becomes a goat, he was never a sheep. There are such things as a miscarriage ( seed not planted deeply).

So, a goat can become a sheep…but, can not return to sleep with the goats ?

 

[brb3]

Not sure I read you right, but that is right, if you are assured of salvation, then and only then is there no need to fear for salvation again. It would be like doubting His word and power to deliver on said promise.

Poco…

Does your SA come from scripture, or Private Revelation?

 

[mackbrislawn]

And you, member of the pillar of truth Church do not know that OT saints had to be regenerated, born again to see the kingdom ? Sorry, couldn’t help using the Lord’s phraseology with similar question from Nicodemus. NT saints however have the Indwelling of God himself, a true temple. Both ( NT and OT ) have to be born again, be born of the spirit, to be reconnected to God again, and both by faith. How did St. Peter know and confess Christ was the Messiah ? Is not Jesus alive today ? Is there not a Holy Spirit ? When He rebirths our dead spirit can we not then commune, sup with Him ? What do you think He most wants to say to us ? What does your new heart long for ? Is this mystical or surely natural to the spiritual world. The book of Acts is full of conversion stories, as are the airwaves today, even on Catholic radio. A before and after person. Kind of like if you just met, really met, Jesus. Way beyond head knowledge.

The psalms were written ages before Nicodemus asked his question. The Old Testament saints therefore knew nothing about being born again or regenerated. Nevertheless they, as saints, were preserved, even without knowledge of regeneration. But if the OT saints needed to be born again, at what point in time did this happen? (It would have had to have been after their deaths.) Christians are adopted sons of God, but is this language used for OT saints?

Your answer to how you personally know you are saved is kind of roundabout, and defensive. I was hoping for a clearcut answer. Because, as I uderstand it, among Calvinists there can be church members who have not had a conversion experience and hence are not sure they are of the elect. It is possible also that even pastors may be of the damned. As a corollary of knowing one is saved, is it then the case that one knows that they are of the reprobate?

 

[paul_c]

Yes and no. St. Paul says he judges himself (so others don’t have to ), and I believe he says the Lord Judges him also. Is it false piety to say I can’t judge whether I am saved or not ? Do you not have the Spirit of adoption, crying Abba, Father ? It is like the physical world, and does a man say, “I can’t judge if I am alive or not”.

Paul actually warns about overconfidence;[BIBLEDRB]1 cor 10:1-13[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[paul_c]

From our limited knowledge into a man’s heart sure. From God’s, no If one becomes a goat, he was never a sheep. There are such things as a miscarriage ( seed not planted deeply).

I was under the assumption that Refromed Christians believe that you were born a goat or a sheep. what is this miscarriage thing? that seems to be a new innovation of thought