Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[pocohombre]

And now to “Assurance” or “Once Saved”

 

[pocohombre]

,quite

The Catholic Church DOES teach predestination and reprobation. However, God wills that we should “choose life”, and thus gives us the option to refuse Him. He desires “that none should perish”, and His “grace is sufficient”

 

[pocohombre]

good night folks .Sorry couldn’t answer all, esp . Pablobe. Lord willing next time.

 

[brb3]

The forefathers of the Church placed great importance on authority. Clement, Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus have all placed extreme importance on the value of obedience to authority (the bishops and priests), and the adherence to tradition and the Church for resolving disputes. THIS IS HOW YOUR FOREFATHERS HANDED THE SCRIPTURE TO YOU. Further, the heretics USED SCRIPTURE EXTENSIVELY to prove their doctrine. Irenaeus condemned this, and said that the only sure way to know a valid interpretation was through the Church.

My friend, I hope you will read the Fathers. I hope you will read all of them. Even read Tertullian, even though he became a heretic. Simply read. Origen, Augustine, Jerome, the Councils (you can actually read what they determined). Read the History of the Church by Eusebius. Read, read, read, as I am now doing. I find the Fathers and their methods comforting. Even where there is disagreement among them I know the result: that they would come to agreement. I find their reference to the Eucharist and the Liturgy and bishops and councils confirming. You may not, but you owe it to yourself to at least approach this with an open mind.

I have said my part, I have done all I can do. I will pray for you, that you seek truth, and do it sincerely, with no agenda.

“…so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.”

well said …

If one takes time to examine writings of first 400 years after Christ, …Eusebius (Early Church History) & all the major ECF’s writings …Christianity and ALL its Key Doctrines… that Student will move up to head of the class …and be able to dialogue with ANYONE, even old profs, …and maybe oneday be a teacher/prof themself.

 

[brb3]

The forefathers of the Church placed great importance on authority. Clement, Ignatius, Justin, and Irenaeus have all placed extreme importance on the value of obedience to authority (the bishops and priests), and the adherence to tradition and the Church for resolving disputes. THIS IS HOW YOUR FOREFATHERS HANDED THE SCRIPTURE TO YOU. Further, the heretics USED SCRIPTURE EXTENSIVELY to prove their doctrine. Irenaeus condemned this, and said that the only sure way to know a valid interpretation was through the Church.

My friend, I hope you will read the Fathers. I hope you will read all of them. Even read Tertullian, even though he became a heretic. Simply read. Origen, Augustine, Jerome, the Councils (you can actually read what they determined). Read the History of the Church by Eusebius. Read, read, read, as I am now doing. I find the Fathers and their methods comforting. Even where there is disagreement among them I know the result: that they would come to agreement. I find their reference to the Eucharist and the Liturgy and bishops and councils confirming. You may not, but you owe it to yourself to at least approach this with an open mind.

I have said my part, I have done all I can do. I will pray for you, that you seek truth, and do it sincerely, with no agenda.

“…so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.”

well said …

If one takes time to examine writings of first 400 years after Christ, …Eusebius (Early Church History) & all the major ECF’s writings …Christianity and ALL its Key Doctrines… that Student will move up to head of the class …and be able to dialogue with ANYONE, even old profs, …and maybe oneday be a teacher/prof themself.

 

[brb3]

PeaceInChrist;10328685:

,quite
Absolutely , universal except to strict Calvinists,which few are Predestination…I know what you mean by other scriptures but not this one. This is dealing not with salvation,but the rewards for good works in Christ.Yes to free will and His command is eternal life, and grace and perseverance. The sin of death however is questionable. This may not be spiritual death but physical death. Did Ananias go to hell, for keeping a part of the sale, lying to the HS ? Did he lose his salvation or was it super chastisement with positive effectual results to the Body of Christ at the time and now ?.. Some would find it contradictory to say some are elected, “purely by His will”, while others had will but willed wrongly .Sounds Augustinian. Unless I misunderstand Thomism ( is he CC ? ) from your quick summary doesn’t sound fair that some are elected apart from their own will but “purely by God’s will”, while others are left with a reprobate will and it’s consequences. Good contributions .Thanks P.S. Don’t think I have contradicted early fathers in my answers to you.

There are a few examples in scripture to support SUPER-ABUNDANT grace. ELIJAH, JOHN THE BAPTIZER, MARY, PAUL’S conversion, etc .

Clearly we haven’t had such overwhelming, overabundance of grace in our lives. How do we explain the apparent ‘favoritism’ he extends to some ?

I can’t…except we all have benefited from that grace extended to those Saints. Grace to our forebears, has long-term benefits to those who read and are amazed by the Genesis to Revelation Epiphany story.

Can we all have a Private / Public revelation as they ? Not public ( as in Christ’s appearance to Saul on Damascus Road), but …I believe God will give us all a Private Revelation of Himself !! This is very common, in lives of Both the Saints & the sinners.

 

[paul_c]

I do not like the term “once saved always saved”, as much as I do not like, “only God knows if I am saved”. Are they both terms born of opposition to the other ? I suspect yours came first, at least in practice, hence some reformer thought and overcompensated, over postulated perhaps.The reform was necessary making OSAS somewhat understandable in a historical context. Why was the reform necessary in your opinion? Do eternal truths change?
pocohombre;10331319:

I do not see any church father saying either term, not by any other name either.

You don’t see the Father’s talking in those terms because they are Catholic and the Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is a one time event, but instead is a lifelong journey toward holiness.

I enter this dialogue not so much to show OSAS, but to go to your point of “God only knows”, and move that bar more to the middle, where like St. John says, “you can know you have eternal life”. Free will does not nullify “assurance”. It is like the tight rope walker. He says, “Do you believe I can cross to the other side ?” .“If you really do, will you get on my back ?”. You may be assured riding on His back that He will get you across. You may be also assured that if you let go of Him you shall surely fall to your destruction. I don’t think assurance negates reprobate possibilities. The glory to God is that assurance is there in the face of them, for it is He who gives us the will and the power to “hold on”…

Now think about the entire tightrope walk as your life. You get on Jesus’ back and he carries you to heaven, but if you choose to let go at anytime, you are lost. You are not assured of heaven until you actually reach it because at any time, you could let go of your salvation through sin. God knows us better than we do ourselves. He knows if we will ultimately let go if the wind picks up (persecution) or if we are decieived into thinking there’s a better option ( the enticements of the world), but we don’t.

… I think part of the difference is how we view salvation itself

Of course it is. You have been seeing it as a predetermined thing (sort of because you also seem to think its related to a one time event). Catholics see it as a journey that begins at baptism and ends when we reach heaven, if we don’t fall away through unrepentant mortal sin.

. It is like we are in a house ablaze in fire crying out save me .The fireman comes in and takes us out. That is what we see form the “outside”. But the inside has two scenarios . One says the possible victim “cooperates” and lets the fireman carry him out. The other says the possible victim has no idea there is a fire or worse likes it, does not even cry out save me UNTIL the fireman makes him aware of the situation, then and only then does he cry out save me and cooperates. The fireman had a double duty on the latter victim, first to “awaken” the victim to the peril, then to actually save him. Again, to the spectator outside on the street, both salvations look the same but they are not. Which brings us to the current discussion on assurance. I’m thinking the first victim may not have as much assurance to remain in the tightrope walker or fireman’s arms because it was his will that determined the good of it. My will is flaky and fallen and not to be trusted. The second victim may have more assurance, because it was His Will that really enabled the reprobate will to see the good in hanging on. He has not only experienced salvation,but knows the source for the desire for it, and experienced it. The reprobate will is exchanged for a new will, after His image. He still has to cooperate but from a totally different perspective than the first victim.

See, you see this as a one time event. In either scenario you present, the person is brought out of the burning building alive and thus has been saved. But in both scenarios, the person’s life isn’t over and there will be other times that they encounter difficulties that require saving again. And that’s the point. Just because you were saved once, doesn’t mean you will live forever.

 

[paul_c]

Let me give you another analogy:

You find yourself in the middle of a raging river and are in danger of drowning when suddenly a boat appears and a man jumps in the river and gets you to the boat. In the process of doing so, the man dies for you. You sit huddled on the boat and you see in the distance the glorious country which is your destination. But its a long way away and the people on the boat expect you to help row and help save the people they find in the river… After a while you get complacent because the journey is taking so long and its hot. You start thinking about cooling off and you jump back in the river and again find yourself in danger of drowning. One of your fellow travellers on the boat, a man that had been saved like yourself, throws out a life raft and encourages you to grab on. You do and he pulls you back in again. Later, you aren’t paying attention and fall back into the river. once again, a man throws you a life raft and you grab on and are pulled in. The journey continues and you see another boat on the river that looks newer and more interesting than the boat you are on. In fact its a sail boat so you won’t have to row and everyone is having a party. You decide that you want the new boat so you jump back in the river and make a swim for it. the fellow travelers on the original boat call out to you to come back because things aren’t always what they seem and they throw out a life jacket for you but you refuse the help. You swim and swim and swim and eventually make it to the new boat. You are helped aboard the sail boat and told the you are safe forever now and that work is optional and how lucky you were to escape life on the rowboat. You look over at the original boat and see the people there still beckoning to you but you laugh at their ignorance, knowing that you know longer need to worry about pulling at the ours or throwing out the life rafts again. But then over time you find that although there is a lot of partying on the sail boat, they don’t serve any real food and you are slowly starving. You also find out because no one is attending to the basics, the sail boat is getting less and less sea worthy over time. People start jumping off the boat, looking for a newer boat but few consider going back to the original boat, despite seeing that the people are actually strengthened by their rowing and by the good food they have. A storm comes and the leaders of the sail boats, being more cruise directors than captains, try to motivate the crews to help fight the storm but they remind the cruise directors that they are passengers with safe passage guaranteed. In the end all the sailboats are lost at see. The original row boat, because it has a steady captain and a well fed crew used to hard work, is the only one that makes it to port.

 

[pocohombre]

well said …

If one takes time to examine writings of first 400 years after Christ, …Eusebius (Early Church History) & all the major ECF’s writings …Christianity and ALL its Key Doctrines… that Student will move up to head of the class …and be able to dialogue with ANYONE, even old profs, …and maybe oneday be a teacher/prof themself.

My fellow pilgrims, if we differ on some scriptural interpretation we will differ on interpreting the same issues with the fathers. For sure at some point however, writings may be more and more in line CC. Also much of their writing is universal, and quite beneficial to all. Many have come to a Catholic faith reading them or strenghtened in it . Many have also been led to be “reformed”, or come away strenghtened in their reformed churches . Fair enough ?

 

[paul_c]

My fellow pilgrims, if we differ on some scriptural interpretation we will differ on interpreting the same issues with the fathers. For sure at some point however, writings may be more and more in line CC. Also much of their writing is universal, and quite beneficial to all. Many have come to a Catholic faith reading them or strenghtened in it . Many have also been led to be “reformed”, or come away strenghtened in their reformed churches . Fair enough ?

Doubtful. the “reformed churches” are by definition,innovations on what came before them. You will not see Calvin’s TULIP or the 5 solas of Luther in the writings of the Early Church fathers. Remember the famous quote of John Henry Newman " To study the Church fathers is to become Catholic."

Keep an open mind as the Spirit will lead you to the truth. All you have to do is follow.

 

[brb3]

My fellow pilgrims, if we differ on some scriptural interpretation we will differ on interpreting the same issues with the fathers. For sure at some point however, writings may be more and more in line CC. Also much of their writing is universal, and quite beneficial to all. Many have come to a Catholic faith reading them or strenghtened in it . Many have also been led to be “reformed”, or come away strenghtened in their reformed churches . Fair enough ?

Lets see what Old Prof says on this …

What a close examination of early history shows is The True Church’s birthpains, growth, and maturation into the New Israel, headquartered in Rome, but extending into the uttermost parts of Earth … constantly attacked from every flank, by every heresy Satan could dream up. Steadily reforming itself, purging out the errors within …and continuing to be the shining city on the hill…for 2000 yrs. Able to deal with schism, able to retain the Sacraments of Eternal Life, able to welcome ALL the Nations and Children of Schism back to their True PromiseLand. Across the Jordan, across the Tiber River …to where Peter & Paul began the battle to conquer a Pagan Empire…for cause of Christ & Cross.

 

[pocohombre]

Doubtful. the “reformed churches” are by definition,innovations on what came before them. You will not see Calvin’s TULIP or the 5 solas of Luther in the writings of the Early Church fathers. Remember the famous quote of John Henry Newman " To study the Church fathers is to become Catholic."

Keep an open mind as the Spirit will lead you to the truth. All you have to do is follow.

Reformed means just that, and nothing to do with innovations. If anything it is wittling back to the old. C.S. Lewis ," Those ignorant of history are slaves to the recent past" (something like that). Anything thought to be innovative is not, but merely brought into existence to combat what was not of old (think of the term Trinity and why we needed the beautiful clarification ).

 

[fbl9]

Reformed means just that, and nothing to do with innovations. If anything it is wittling back to the old. C.S. Lewis ," Those ignorant of history are slaves to the recent past" (something like that). Anything thought to be innovative is not, but merely brought into existence to combat what was not of old (think of the term Trinity and why we needed the beautiful clarification ).

yes think of the Trinity…
oh wait the apostle’s were all gone so i guess that’s not valid. as it was merely men discussing the issue and mere man settled it.

 

[paul_c]

Reformed means just that, and nothing to do with innovations. If anything it is wittling back to the old. C.S. Lewis ," Those ignorant of history are slaves to the recent past" (something like that). Anything thought to be innovative is not, but merely brought into existence to combat what was not of old (think of the term Trinity and why we needed the beautiful clarification ).

Again, show were Calvin’s TULIP or Luthers 5 solas are to be found in the writings of the early church fathers. They are clearly innovations that their creators were proud of.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Again, show were Calvin’s TULIP or Luthers 5 solas are to be found in the writings of the early church fathers. They are clearly innovations that their creators were proud of.

The Gnostics held to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide long before the Protestants. As I attempted to point out, Irenaeus (a bishop and one with authority, who learned from Polycarp, who learned from John) held that authority and unity were the only way to be sure of the True Church. Heretics have always proved him right. Those who oppose authority and splinter into a thousand sects have been around since the Apostles. “Nothing is new under the sun!”

 

[paul_c]

The Gnostics held to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide long before the Protestants. As I attempted to point out, Irenaeus (a bishop and one with authority, who learned from Polycarp, who learned from John) held that authority and unity were the only way to be sure of the True Church. Heretics have always proved him right. Those who oppose authority and splinter into a thousand sects have been around since the Apostles. “Nothing is new under the sun!”

the gnostics are heretics and are discreet from the early church fathers. And you are right, many of the arguments the ECFs used against them condemn current reformed views.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

the gnostics are heretics and are discreet from the early church fathers. And you are right, many of the arguments the ECFs used against them condemn current reformed views.

Indeed they are distinct. I was merely pointing out that what was valid as a source of authority in the Early Church, is still today. Especially so when the heresies use such similar means to support their positions. Each new breed of heretic thinks they are coming to some kind of new knowledge. In reality, they are a repeat of history. That is all I was attempting to show with my last statement.

 

[brb3]

The Gnostics held to Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide long before the Protestants. As I attempted to point out, Irenaeus (a bishop and one with authority, who learned from Polycarp, who learned from John) held that authority and unity were the only way to be sure of the True Church. Heretics have always proved him right. Those who oppose authority and splinter into a thousand sects have been around since the Apostles. “Nothing is new under the sun!”

Peace …

U are amazing for only 150 posts ! As good as the forum elders

 

[pocohombre]

]Why was the reform necessary in your opinion? Do eternal truths change?

Truths don’t change.Practices sure do, almost nullifying, modifying a truth.The stability of truth you know is not the problem. There once was a chosen people ,who DID carry forth God’s plan . Truth was constant. God’s grace and guidance was constant. Yet they “strayed”, yet remaining perfect in delivering forth the Son.

You don’t see the Father’s talking in those terms because they are Catholic and the Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is a one time event, but instead is a lifelong journey toward holiness.

Does CC have use of justification, sanctification,glorification ?

Now think about the entire tightrope walk as your life. You get on Jesus’ back and he carries you to heaven, but if you choose to let go at anytime, you are lost. You are not assured of heaven until you actually reach it because at any time, you could let go of your salvation through sin. God knows us better than we do ourselves. He knows if we will ultimately let go if the wind picks up (persecution) or if we are decieived into thinking there’s a better option ( the enticements of the world), but we don’t.

“You may be also assured that if you let go of Him you shall surely fall to your destruction.” I did say that. Can you agree to the CC position, to the universal position that God aids, gives us the will to “hang on”, obey etc.

Of course it is. You have been seeing it as a predetermined thing (sort of because you also seem to think its related to a one time event). Catholics see it as a journey that begins at baptism and ends when we reach heaven, if we don’t fall away through unrepentant mortal sin.

Some of this is semantics. I believe justification is one time, being born again is one time, just as in the physical world. We then usually say , “I have been saved, gone from death to new life”. Now sanctification is lifelong. At this point I am not against the term “saved” being interpreted in a few scripture as a process or continual, but not nullifying my previous statements. For sure, new life, rebirth is once.

 

[brb3]

​

Born again, …the term given by Christ, " you must be born again, of ‘baptismal’ water & of Holy Spirit".

Now, is it ONLY that first ENLIGHTENMENT event Only, upon our first faith, when we were first justified…and felt/expressed that INFUSION of HS Fire into our minds/souls ?

Yes, that was the REBIRTH event. That was when we were ADOPTED by the Father, via the Son’s ATONEMENT, …all by grace, and EVIDENCED, TESTIFIED TO by the receipt of HS …just as John the Baptizer prophesied Jesus would ACCOMPLISH by his coming. The reborn, are indelibly marked by God with HS…as the promised SIGN/SEAL of adoption.

But, as remarkable and powerful as the REBIRTH is …its only our beginning. We all start out as baby Christians. Now, next comes discipleship…we must do as Christ directed, follow him, imitating him, applying his New Commandments to our lives, WITH HELP OF dwelling HS. So, as we grow into the FULL MAN, (as Paul teaches) …we are continually being molded by Christ via HS via more justification/sanctification Graces, grace upon grace, …again taught by Paul.

We are growing, just like the Apostles, IN CHRIST, towards our HIGH CALLING in Christ…being slowly (or perhaps quickly in case of some) taught to master sin…since scripture says NOTHING UNCLEAN CAN ENTER HEAVEN.

It’s a race, that race needing to be completed via perseverance…always with God’s help, via the FIRE OF HS within …that action, work, grace of the Paraclete. So, if ( whenever) we grieve HS, falling partially or fully from grace, …growing cool within, complacent, not confessing sin ---- that is grave error on our part, and we have stopped the race, taking our eyes off Christ …and in need of ‘GRACIOUS’ recovery by the Good Shepherd.

If we ask him, via free-will desire to respond to God’s calling, he will recover us …and THAT SHEEP will not be utterly lost, …so that Christ can deliver that REPENTANT sheep to the Father, as promised…fulfilling scripture.