Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c;10332828Why was the reform necessary in your opinion? Do eternal truths change?

So if you agree that truthes don’t change, explain again why the Reformed felt it necessary to change the doctrines leading to salvation. Predestination and assurance of salvation are not church practices, they are fundamental changes in doctrine.

Quote:
You don’t see the Father’s talking in those terms because they are Catholic and the Catholic Church does not teach that salvation is a one time event, but instead is a lifelong journey toward holiness.

Sure. we are justified when we are baptized, the rest of our lives are spent working on sanctification and if we get to heaven, we will be glorified. But we don’t use these terms much. We speak more in terms of grace. We enter the state of grace in baptism. We stay in the state of grace through lovign god and others and avoiding mortal sin. If we do fall from the state of grace through sin, we can be reconciled through sacramental confession and return to grace. If we die in the state of grace, we will enter heaven.

Quote:
Now think about the entire tightrope walk as your life. You get on Jesus’ back and he carries you to heaven, but if you choose to let go at anytime, you are lost. You are not assured of heaven until you actually reach it because at any time, you could let go of your salvation through sin. God knows us better than we do ourselves. He knows if we will ultimately let go if the wind picks up (persecution) or if we are decieived into thinking there’s a better option ( the enticements of the world), but we don’t

Sure, God calls to each of us to do his will and if we do that until we die, we will be saved. But he does not force us to do that against our will.

Quote:
Of course it is. You have been seeing it as a predetermined thing (sort of because you also seem to think its related to a one time event). Catholics see it as a journey that begins at baptism and ends when we reach heaven, if we don’t fall away through unrepentant mortal sin.

yes, we are born again through baptism, entering into the state of grace. And that is indeed a one time event. But to stay in the state of grace, and ultimately enter heaven, you must lead a life of love. This is made much easier if you are getting the gift of grace through the sacrament.

And I agree some of the problem is semantics, but not all of it. Assurance of salvation is not a semantical issue. It is fundamental because it fails to recognize God’s gift of individual free will.

 

[brb3]

CCC 675 [Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial ‘that will shake the faith of many believers’. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the ’ price of apostasy from the truth…]

Even Revelation rejects notion of OSAS !! How could Calvinism miss it ?

 

[pocohombre]

Lets see what Old Prof says on this …

What a close examination of early history shows is The True Church’s birthpains, growth, and maturation into the New Israel, headquartered in Rome, but extending into the uttermost parts of Earth … constantly attacked from every flank, by every heresy Satan could dream up. Steadily reforming itself, purging out the errors within …and continuing to be the shining city on the hill…for 2000 yrs. Able to deal with schism, able to retain the Sacraments of Eternal Life, able to welcome ALL the Nations and Children of Schism back to their True PromiseLand. Across the Jordan, across the Tiber River …to where Peter & Paul began the battle to conquer a Pagan Empire…for cause of Christ & Cross.

Very Charitable.

 

[pocohombre]

Let me give you another analogy:

You find yourself in the middle of a raging river and are in danger of drowning when suddenly a boat appears and a man jumps in the river and gets you to the boat. In the process of doing so, the man dies for you. You sit huddled on the boat and you see in the distance the glorious country which is your destination. But its a long way away and the people on the boat expect you to help row and help save the people they find in the river… After a while you get complacent because the journey is taking so long and its hot. You start thinking about cooling off and you jump back in the river and again find yourself in danger of drowning. One of your fellow travellers on the boat, a man that had been saved like yourself, throws out a life raft and encourages you to grab on. You do and he pulls you back in again. Later, you aren’t paying attention and fall back into the river. once again, a man throws you a life raft and you grab on and are pulled in. The journey continues and you see another boat on the river that looks newer and more interesting than the boat you are on. In fact its a sail boat so you won’t have to row and everyone is having a party. You decide that you want the new boat so you jump back in the river and make a swim for it. the fellow travelers on the original boat call out to you to come back because things aren’t always what they seem and they throw out a life jacket for you but you refuse the help. You swim and swim and swim and eventually make it to the new boat. You are helped aboard the sail boat and told the you are safe forever now and that work is optional and how lucky you were to escape life on the rowboat. You look over at the original boat and see the people there still beckoning to you but you laugh at their ignorance, knowing that you know longer need to worry about pulling at the ours or throwing out the life rafts again. But then over time you find that although there is a lot of partying on the sail boat, they don’t serve any real food and you are slowly starving. You also find out because no one is attending to the basics, the sail boat is getting less and less sea worthy over time. People start jumping off the boat, looking for a newer boat but few consider going back to the original boat, despite seeing that the people are actually strengthened by their rowing and by the good food they have. A storm comes and the leaders of the sail boats, being more cruise directors than captains, try to motivate the crews to help fight the storm but they remind the cruise directors that they are passengers with safe passage guaranteed. In the end all the sailboats are lost at see. The original row boat, because it has a steady captain and a well fed crew used to hard work, is the only one that makes it to port.

Now you sound a bit protestant in that the scenario is close but a bit varied from other Catholics, and is contrary to CC teaching about faith outside of Rome. Anyways, when I got saved many old friends thought it would be temporary, and elder Christians were hopeful, but sober and diligent in discipling. I knew that all that profess salvation in fact do not finish the course, or not not genuine in the first place. I also knew the Lord knew my heart, as did a few close new brothers. At no point did any ever intimate to “stop rowing and party”. However, I hope you are not making light of the wonderful gracious fact of "resting in Christ, ceasing from our labors(to please God our way ), “my yoke is easy” as we did not make light of “pick up your cross and follow me”, to die daily, to be perfect as he is perfect. I think it is universal amongst Christians of all denominations to pray for genuine, deep,committed and forever lasting conversions/births AND to supply the necessary equipping to that end (catechize,disciple etc)

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Let me give you another analogy:

How so? and what do you think the Catholic Churches teaching is about faith outside the Church?

Anyways, when I got saved many old friends thought it would be temporary, and elder Christians were hopeful, but sober and diligent in discipling. I knew that all that profess salvation in fact do not finish the course, or not not genuine in the first place. I also knew the Lord knew my heart, as did a few close new brothers

Whoa, I thought you believed in the assurance of salvation? Are you ready to recognize that salvation requires perseverance in the faith. This is a big step toward the Catholic Point of view.

. At no point did any ever intimate to “stop rowing and party”. However, I hope you are not making light of the wonderful gracious fact of "resting in Christ, ceasing from our labors(to please God our way ), “my yoke is easy” as we did not make light of “pick up your cross and follow me”, to die daily, to be perfect as he is perfect.

I’m making light of nothing. I am recognizing that when people leave the Catholic Church its inevitably because they don’t respect its teaching authority and want to do things their own way. But I am very encouraged that you recognize the Church’s teaching to pick up your cross and follow Jesus, to die daily to self and to be perfect as He is perfect. That is indeed the way to heaven.

I think it is universal amongst Christians of all denominations to pray for genuine, deep,committed and forever lasting conversions/births AND to supply the necessary equipping to that end (catechize,disciple etc)

I would hope so, but this militates against assurance of salvation, doesn’t it. When you pray for forever lasting conversions, aren’t you in fact admitting that some are not forever lasting ? In fact, can’t you see taht you already believe that you are not assured of being saved. What you might believe is that if you persevere in love and faith to the end, that you will be accepted into heaven, and I would not disagree with that sentiment (we call that hope). But you must recognize by now that if you fall from grace though sin and do not reconcile with God (sacrementally or with perfect contrition), you can indeed be condemned (you might recognize this as never having been truly saved to begin with - the net effects are the same).

 

[brb3]

Poco…

Regarding SA, I do think it is an essential, for any Christian to have.

W/0 assurance in Christ and his promise to shepherd us ‘successfully’ …we are ineffectual, double-minded, and unable to proclaim Christ as Lord.
As Christ taught, ‘we can do nothing w/o him’, and when we perceive Christ within, we can do ‘all things in Christ, who strengthens us’.

So, I understand a distinction between OSAS & SA. They are not the same, although some will claim otherwise.

Paul often claimed he was ‘in Christ’, & those Church Christians he wrote to needed to be also. But, I only see him saying he ‘hoped’, determined, was fully confident …that he would continue to have his SA, provided he continued to follow Christ, finishing the race.

So, SA is assured, in the present tense, if we are In Christ. But, scripture is clear that many of the born again redeemed, will become Apostates and forfeit their claim to the Kingdom, in the last days. Thus, scripture specifically rejects OSAS …for many of those born again Christians.

Nevertheless, scripture emphatically teaches our need to understand our SA, whenever we are Fully Confessed, filled with HS, and remaining In Christ, …as the ‘bosom’ friends he desires us to be.

 

[pocohombre]

Poco…

Regarding SA, I do think it is an essential, for any Christian to have.

W/0 assurance in Christ and his promise to shepherd us ‘successfully’ …we are ineffectual, double-minded, and unable to proclaim Christ as Lord.
As Christ taught, ‘we can do nothing w/o him’, and when we perceive Christ within, we can do ‘all things in Christ, who strengthens us’.

So, I understand a distinction between OSAS & SA. They are not the same, although some will claim otherwise.

Paul often claimed he was ‘in Christ’, & those Church Christians he wrote to needed to be also. But, I only see him saying he ‘hoped’, determined, was fully confident …that he would continue to have his SA, provided he continued to follow Christ, finishing the race.

So, SA is assured, in the present tense, if we are In Christ. But, scripture is clear that many of the born again redeemed, will become Apostates and forfeit their claim to the Kingdom, in the last days. Thus, scripture specifically rejects OSAS …for many of those born again Christians.

Nevertheless, scripture emphatically teaches our need to understand our SA, whenever we are Fully Confessed, filled with HS, and remaining In Christ, …as the ‘bosom’ friends he desires us to be.

Interesting. Why is it then that when asked if one were to die tonight Catholics usually say, “I hope I would go to heaven.” What I have never heard is, "Well let’s see, I just confessed this evening, am in good standing, in grace, no mortal sins so right now absolutely, I belive in the promises of the cross and would go staightway to heaven (even via purgatory) ". I don’t hear that. It is like even if they have satisfied all the requiremnets, they still say “hope”, as if as the one good brother here says, “only God knows, I can not presume”. From what I have been told here, the “absolutely” statement above is OK according to CC teaching, and not against council of Trent, for it is only anathema if you deny any “requirements”. Hope you followed that and is correctly representative of all said parties.

 

[paul_c]

Interesting. Why is it then that when asked if one were to die tonight Catholics usually say, “I hope I would go to heaven.” What I have never heard is, "Well let’s see, I just confessed this evening, am in good standing, in grace, no mortal sins so right now absolutely, I belive in the promises of the cross and would go staightway to heaven (even via purgatory) ". I don’t hear that. It is like even if they have satisfied all the requiremnets, they still say “hope”, as if as the one good brother here says, “only God knows, I can not presume”. From what I have been told here, the “absolutely” statement above is OK according to CC teaching, and not against council of Trent, for it is only anathema if you deny any “requirements”. Hope you followed that and is correctly representative of all said parties.

Because we are taught that presumption is a sin and that Jesus alone is the just judge.
Just love to the best of your ability and have faith in God’s ability to judge. If God judges us lacking, who are we to argue?

 

[brb3]

Interesting. Why is it then that when asked if one were to die tonight Catholics usually say, “I hope I would go to heaven.” What I have never heard is, "Well let’s see, I just confessed this evening, am in good standing, in grace, no mortal sins so right now absolutely, I belive in the promises of the cross and would go staightway to heaven (even via purgatory) ". I don’t hear that. It is like even if they have satisfied all the requiremnets, they still say “hope”, as if as the one good brother here says, “only God knows, I can not presume”. From what I have been told here, the “absolutely” statement above is OK according to CC teaching, and not against council of Trent, for it is only anathema if you deny any “requirements”. Hope you followed that and is correctly representative of all said parties.

I know what u mean ! This used to give me fits !! How could a Catholic NOT KNOW…if they were fully confessed, and living a life pleasing to Christ.
They know, …they just don’t want to appear proud or overconfident they couldn’t possibly sin tomorrow.

We do have to be careful, everyday examining ourselves …via examination of conscience, to prevent becoming proud or arrogant …and always making sure our lives are characterized by charity & love of fellowman…w/o which no man will see God.

So, Catholics are taught to understand salvation in present tense. They do know their status, and will either say they ‘are’ saved…or have lapsed and in need of confession.

So, what if a Catholic commits mortal sin, late one night …w/o access to priest. How can they sleep soundly ? Ask them this ? But, my experience is we pray the father, making full confession via Christ, also promising to see priest ASAP about matter. As long as we follow thru, on our intentions … then we are given a ‘grace period’ by Christ to see priest & finalize our promise. But, if we put off doing so …that’s serious MORTAL offense …that we will be held accountable for.

At least, this is my understanding / experience…of how Catholicism works ‘in the real world’ & from what priests tell me.

 

[fhansen]

Interesting. Why is it then that when asked if one were to die tonight Catholics usually say, “I hope I would go to heaven.” What I have never heard is, "Well let’s see, I just confessed this evening, am in good standing, in grace, no mortal sins so right now absolutely, I belive in the promises of the cross and would go staightway to heaven (even via purgatory) ". I don’t hear that. It is like even if they have satisfied all the requiremnets, they still say “hope”, as if as the one good brother here says, “only God knows, I can not presume”. From what I have been told here, the “absolutely” statement above is OK according to CC teaching, and not against council of Trent, for it is only anathema if you deny any “requirements”. Hope you followed that and is correctly representative of all said parties.

Probably better to let Trent speak for itself on this:

**CHAPTER IX.
Against the vain confidence of Heretics.
But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither [Page 37] is this to be asserted,-that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

CHAPTER XII.
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

CHAPTER XIII.
On the gift of Perseverance.
So also as regards the gift of perseverance, of which it is written, He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved:-which gift cannot be derived from any other but Him, who is able to establish him who standeth that he stand perseveringly, and to restore him who falleth:-let no one herein promise himself any thing as certain with an absolute certainty; though all ought to place and repose a most firm hope in God’s help. For God, unless men be themselves wanting to His grace, as he has begun the good work, so will he perfect it, working (in them) to will and to accomplish. Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall, and, with fear and trembling work out their salvation, in labours, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayers and oblations, in fastings and chastity: for, knowing that they are born again unto a hope of glory, but not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat which yet remains with the flesh, with the world, with the devil, wherein they cannot be victorious, unless they be with God’s grace, obedient to the Apostle, who says; We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.**

 

[pocohombre]

Because we are taught that presumption is a sin and that Jesus alone is the just judge.
Just love to the best of your ability and have faith in God’s ability to judge. If God judges us lacking, who are we to argue?

Except the requirements are also fulfilled in sacraments, particularily confession, and having faith in what the CC teaches on forgiveness. Why is it presumption to have faith in what the CC teaches -you must be in state of grace ? Is it too vague ? Just to love can be vague too. Again, is it presumptuous to know your sins are forgiven and you are back in the state of grace after Confession ?

 

[pocohombre]

I know what u mean ! This used to give me fits !! How could a Catholic NOT KNOW…if they were fully confessed, and living a life pleasing to Christ.
They know, …they just don’t want to appear proud or overconfident they couldn’t possibly sin tomorrow.

We do have to be careful, everyday examining ourselves …via examination of conscience, to prevent becoming proud or arrogant …and always making sure our lives are characterized by charity & love of fellowman…w/o which no man will see God.

So, Catholics are taught to understand salvation in present tense. They do know their status, and will either say they ‘are’ saved…or have lapsed and in need of confession.

So, what if a Catholic commits mortal sin, late one night …w/o access to priest. How can they sleep soundly ? Ask them this ? But, my experience is we pray the father, making full confession via Christ, also promising to see priest ASAP about matter. As long as we follow thru, on our intentions … then we are given a ‘grace period’ by Christ to see priest & finalize our promise. But, if we put off doing so …that’s serious MORTAL offense …that we will be held accountable for.

At least, this is my understanding / experience…of how Catholicism works ‘in the real world’ & from what priests tell me.

Yes, thank you, I haven’t heard any Catholic say they were “saved " though but as has been pointed out, " being saved”.

 

[pocohombre]

Probably better to let Trent speak for itself on this:

 

[brb3]

Yes, thank you, I haven’t heard any Catholic say they were “saved " though but as has been pointed out, " being saved”.

Well, I’d say the Elders here at CAF believe they are ‘currently Saved’, … but realize they must continue on in charity, love of mankind,and stay fully confessed…persevering til the end …if they expect to see the Kingdom in next world.

But, I must say, I wish Catholics would express more confidence in their ‘determination’ to persevere.

More good scripture on SA: … for us to name & claim below:

---

JAMES 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces ‘steadfastness’. And, let your steadfastness have its full effect, that you may ‘be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing’. …then, verse 6 But, let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.

1 John 3:21-22 Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, 'we have confidence before God; and we ‘receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him’. …then verse 24, All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And in this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

Matt.7:8,11 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. …how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him !

 

[pocohombre]

]Probably better to let Trent speak for itself on this:

CHAPTER XII.
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

Why is it a secret mystery if God, and CC says He indeed does it (predestine) ? What is special revelation ? Can anything be more special than a revelation from God ? John speaks of it thoroughly in his epistles 1st ch 5. How can it be “unknown” if John says it can? … “that ye may know ye have eternal life”, " “…we know that he hear us”, “we know we are of God”, 'We know he has given us understanding", " we know him and are in him", “He that is begotten of God keepeth himself and the wicked one toucheth him not”, “he that hath the son hath life”, “the children of thy elect greet thee”-2nd john

 

[pocohombre]

Well, I’d say the Elders here at CAF believe they are ‘currently Saved’, … but realize they must continue on in charity, love of mankind,and stay fully confessed…persevering til the end …if they expect to see the Kingdom in next world.

But, I must say, I wish Catholics would express more confidence in their ‘determination’ to persevere.

More good scripture on SA: … for us to name & claim below:

---

JAMES 1:2-4 Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces ‘steadfastness’. And, let your steadfastness have its full effect, that you may ‘be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing’. …then, verse 6 But, let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.

1 John 3:21-22 Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, 'we have confidence before God; and we ‘receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him’. …then verse 24, All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And in this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

Matt.7:8,11 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. …how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him !

Amen .

 

[fhansen]

OK. Read it 4 times .Pretty much sums up some of are discussion. So Trent says by mercy our sins are forgiven, gratuitously. But then it says things that may not be covered gratuitously, for instance presumption, vain confidence, error. Like it is necessary for a murderer to believe his sins are forgiven by God’s mercy and grace, yet it would be wrong for him to presume so, because being a sinner and relatively spiritually weak compared to God. It is quite contradictory to me. I am forgiven for my sins, but I am also forgiven for being a sinner. If no one can know with a certainty of faith, how can you “necessarily believe”. Faith apprehends yet CC says it can not for sure ? Have you noticed that when something is not right, rationale is “stretched” (ie-abortion laws ok but hurt a pregnant woman killing the baby is murder) ? Again we are told to believe ( “it is necessary to believe”) ,then when one does and “rests " in that (’ rests on that alone”) it is wrong(" neither [Page 37] is this to be asserted" ) ???

There are two wills involved: God’s will and man’s will. If only God’s will were involved then free will would not be possible, and therefore neither would sin be possible. God’s will is that none should perish; His forgiveness is freely lavished upon His creation. But His creation isn’t forced to accept it-and can always reject His forgiveness, His Grace, Himself, at any point along the way.

The wildcard is us, not Him, and this is why humility is called for in assessing one’s fate vis a vis our eternal destiny; in recognition of our weakness. God won’t force us to be saved anymore than He forced Adam to refrain from falling to begin with. And scripture is chock full of admonitions for believers to remain faithfully living in the Spirit, lest they fall and lose their way again.

 

[fhansen]

Why is it a secret mystery if God, and CC says He indeed does it (predestine) ? What is special revelation ? Can anything be more special than a revelation from God ? John speaks of it thoroughly in his epistles 1st ch 5. How can it be “unknown” if John says it can? … “that ye may know ye have eternal life”, " “…we know that he hear us”, “we know we are of God”, 'We know he has given us understanding", " we know him and are in him", “He that is begotten of God keepeth himself and the wicked one toucheth him not”, “he that hath the son hath life”, “the children of thy elect greet thee”-2nd john

As for predestination, its important to understand the term in the manner intended. The following is from the Catechism:

**600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:**

Special revelation is an extremely profound, drop-you-on-the-ground contact with God. The receiver experiences a communication as direct and certain as mine to you now. The presence of God, the grantor and orchestrator of the experience is thick and obvious-this cannot be conveyed by mere words. More ordinary faith is also revelation, as it is a gift wherein one has been touched, but in less distinct and profound ways.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Because we are taught that presumption is a sin and that Jesus alone is the just judge.
Just love to the best of your ability and have faith in God’s ability to judge. If God judges us lacking, who are we to argue?

You are finding this difficult to understand because your mindset is much different than that of a devout Catholic. It seems that in your tradition, it is a normal and accepted thing for you to claim the mantel of “saved”. In fact, it would appear that you are taught that if you don’t have this confidence, you might be reprobate. So we understand your point of view.

But this is not how it is in Catholicism. We believe that if we in the state of grace when we die that we will go to heaven, it is true. But we know that being in the state of grace is through God’s mercy and our actions and while we can depend on God’s mercy. we as humans are undependable. So we humbly do our best, partaking of the sacraments, pray for God’s help and trying to love God and others the best we can. We trust in Jesus’ just judgement and really, only worry about loving to the best of our ability. I can say with complete honesty, that I never worry about heaven or hell. Remember the beatitudes: Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land…

 

[brb3]

You are finding this difficult to understand because your mindset is much different than that of a devout Catholic. It seems that in your tradition, it is a normal and accepted thing for you to claim the mantel of “saved”. In fact, it would appear that you are taught that if you don’t have this confidence, you might be reprobate. So we understand your point of view.

But this is not how it is in Catholicism. We believe that if we in the state of grace when we die that we will go to heaven, it is true. But we know that being in the state of grace is through God’s mercy and our actions and while we can depend on God’s mercy. we as humans are undependable. So we humbly do our best, partaking of the sacraments, pray for God’s help and trying to love God and others the best we can. We trust in Jesus’ just judgement and really, only worry about loving to the best of our ability. I can say with complete honesty, that I never worry about heaven or hell. Remember the beatitudes: Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land…

Very well said ! After 4 yrs now a convert, I can truthfully say that Catholics ‘live’ life with more SA, than many Protestants …who talk a good game/race.

Our lives lived … are the true measure of the Heart within. And, if that heart is One with Christ’s…a Bosom friendship, then we sleep soundly as a baby.