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pablope
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paul_c
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pocohombre
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Thanks for sharing. Testifying is sometimes strongest persuasion.Not sure what your first awaking was. Was it real birth or a planted seed beginning it’s incubation. Quite a few peolple make altar calls, cry alot, feel great spiritually but don’t "pan 'out.So the question is were they truly born again, or was it seeds not going to full maturity (which to me is the rebirth ) . Some of the admonisions here that are applied to believers to maintain, persevere, I read as warnings as to nonbelievers to make sure they are indeed born again…My real world experience was that I was not born again when I thought I was, after all I had several rites behind me, and I knew all about Jesus etc.
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paul_c
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pablope
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Poco…from Heb 10:
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
Who do you think are those who have received the knowledge of truth that this passage is referring to?
no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
And if those who received the knowledge of truth keep on sinning…what would they expect based on this passage?
From Rom 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
Who are the the wild olive shoots that have been grafted is referred to in this passage?
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Will God then not spare those grafted in, like those of the natural branches?
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
What mus the ingrafted branches do so that they will not be cut off?
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brb3
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Poco …I can relate to all u say above. And, I too put a lot of stock in personal testimonials. Because, as you note above…scripture is very clear on the essential needed that we be unified/bonded to Christ via the awakening/enlightenment of receipt of HS. Christ and John could not of been more definitive about this point.
In my case, my Trinitarian baptism as 3rd grader, didn’t enlighten me…to the degree I expected. But, at that early age I really didn’t have a lot of PS…not like I did later at age 18, when I rededicated my life, and was Confirmed in HS, when elders laid hands on me and prayed that I receive HS. It was a life changing event, a Supernatural awakening, for first time in my life I felt God’s personal love and the infused Indwelling of HS. Before this, I never could truly say I had every had a prayer answered…or had perceived Christ in personal way. My prior faith/beliefs were purely theoretical ideas of God, based on scripture. But, I couldn’t testify to Christ or God in personal way …I only knew what scripture said. And, that bothered me tremendously !! I wanted same proof the Apostles had …and scripture said we could have it, but I didn’t !! Just had my theories !!
So, that’s why I’m fanatical about need for Confirmation in HS !!! Unless, we are later in life Confirmed, and have our young-age Baptisms COMPLETED by enlightenment of Paraclete, we are unable to perceive God, and are incomplete new creations. Confirmation completes Baptism…no if, ands or buts.
Nevertheless, I discovered within 4-5 years thereafter, that I could & did fall back into Mortal sins, lost the Indwelling HS, and fell in love with Prodigal lifestyle, somehow convincing myself that I was OSAS, just unchurched, and no different from any other Protestant Christian. I assumed God had infinite mercy, and had covered all my current defects back at time of my Enlightenment. Yet, I. knew I had lost my first love & was making shipwreck of my potentials/talents. But, again Satan had me under his thumb, and convinced me I was still the Apple of God’s eye, bombproof saved, just not exercising my talents and not gaining potential heavenly rewards. I’d be there, I was guaranteed heaven…just w/o a lot of stars or medals.
And, then God sent some misery my way, PAIN I COULDN’T EXPLAIN. I had trials of Job, and that woke me up. God, sent me trials/penance…that brought me to repentance via Catholic Church…which had all the truth on scripture I was ignorant of. And, its been a beautiful 4 years !!! The CC is amazing …its that church that I always wanted & at long last discovered!! W/O it, I’d still be twisting in the wind, confused, and under Satan’s thumb !!
I’ve much more SA now as Catholic …than before as unrepentant Protestant. Christ gave us the Catholic Church … to help us persevere & make the Kingdom !!
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pocohombre
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" 20.When Catholics say that persons “cooperate” in preparing for and accepting justification by consenting to God’s justifying action, they see such personal consent as itself an effect of grace, not as an action arising from innate human abilities.", from your site URL=“http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html”. Even your positive responding, use of free will is pure grace.
“Lutherans do not deny that a person can reject the working of grace”, line 20 from your site above
Understand thanks. read quickly your site - interesting. Yes, others here have quoted assurance scripture.This is good. I wonder if sometimes there is a disparity between what could be taught and what is taught in “balance” ( like be sure but not too sure) and what is actually practiced.
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pocohombre
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Interesting thanks .Does OSAS mean never falling sinning? If so ,does it mention to what extent or how long ? How do you know that you are not proof of God’s keeping power (which is the impetus behind OSAS) ? I mean you say you were saved at 18,fell away but are back .This does not contradict OSAS. Maybe I was saved at 10 years old, watching Billy Ghaham .I certainly “fell” but am in fellowship now . Isn’t that OSAS ? That is He remained faithful to me .That you feel you were out of grace is immaterial , for you didn’t die, and are back on track, in grace. Repentance is repentance, whether you do it cause you think you are saved or cause you think you need to be saved…You could have repented with or without OSAS. I don’t think OSAS says we sin for grace to expound ,as Paul said heaven forbid. Interesting that you say CC teaching helped set you free from Protestant error and my experience is that Protestant teaching help set me free from CC error.Poco …I can relate to all u say above. And, I too put a lot of stock in personal testimonials. Because, as you note above…scripture is very clear on the essential needed that we be unified/bonded to Christ via the awakening/enlightenment of receipt of HS. Christ and John could not of been more definitive about this point.
In my case, my Trinitarian baptism as 3rd grader, didn’t enlighten me…to the degree I expected. But, at that early age I really didn’t have a lot of PS…not like I did later at age 18, when I rededicated my life, and was Confirmed in HS, when elders laid hands on me and prayed that I receive HS. It was a life changing event, a Supernatural awakening, for first time in my life I felt God’s personal love and the infused Indwelling of HS. Before this, I never could truly say I had every had a prayer answered…or had perceived Christ in personal way. My prior faith/beliefs were purely theoretical ideas of God, based on scripture. But, I couldn’t testify to Christ or God in personal way …I only knew what scripture said. And, that bothered me tremendously !! I wanted same proof the Apostles had …and scripture said we could have it, but I didn’t !! Just had my theories !!
So, that’s why I’m fanatical about need for Confirmation in HS !!! Unless, we are later in life Confirmed, and have our young-age Baptisms COMPLETED by enlightenment of Paraclete, we are unable to perceive God, and are incomplete new creations. Confirmation completes Baptism…no if, ands or buts.
Nevertheless, I discovered within 4-5 years thereafter, that I could & did fall back into Mortal sins, lost the Indwelling HS, and fell in love with Prodigal lifestyle, somehow convincing myself that I was OSAS, just unchurched, and no different from any other Protestant Christian. I assumed God had infinite mercy, and had covered all my current defects back at time of my Enlightenment. Yet, I. knew I had lost my first love & was making shipwreck of my potentials/talents. But, again Satan had me under his thumb, and convinced me I was still the Apple of God’s eye, bombproof saved, just not exercising my talents and not gaining potential heavenly rewards. I’d be there, I was guaranteed heaven…just w/o a lot of stars or medals.
And, then God sent some misery my way, PAIN I COULDN’T EXPLAIN. I had trials of Job, and that woke me up. God, sent me trials/penance…that brought me to repentance via Catholic Church…which had all the truth on scripture I was ignorant of. And, its been a beautiful 4 years !!! The CC is amazing …its that church that I always wanted & at long last discovered!! W/O it, I’d still be twisting in the wind, confused, and under Satan’s thumb !!
I’ve much more SA now as Catholic …than before as unrepentant Protestant. Christ gave us the Catholic Church … to help us persevere & make the Kingdom !!
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guanophore
Guest
Thank you for reading the declaration poco. There are some on CAF who are not willing to engage at that level. Yes, God has fashioned us to seek Him, but we cannot find Him without His grace, which is constantly drawing us to Himself. Latin Catholics call this “prevenient” or drawing grace. When we respond to that grace, He gives more grace. The only reason we don’t all it “grace alone” is because it is not alone. It always mixes with the faith of the individual to produce salvific effects.
I can assure you that there is a very great disparity for many Catholics. I was not well catechized myself, and did not understand my faith, or practice what I claimed to believe. I would not be surprised that a majority of Catholics had trouble wtih the Joint Declaration, since they don’t understand what the Church really believes and teaches. I cannot count the number of Catholics who believe they will get to heaven by "trying to be a good person’.
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guanophore
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How so? Maybe I missed this in an earlier post.
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PeaceInChrist
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He wrote with the authority of a bishop. He also wrote, interestingly enough, about obedience to bishops and presbyters. Protestants have literally no obedience to any bishops. Even members in sects with ‘bishops’ break off into schismatic groups (“High” Anglican Church versus the more heterodox Anglicans that have emerged). Ignatius also wrote about this extensively. The position of bishop was firmly established.
Irenaeus wrote on the importance of the bishops of Rome in more depth in “Against Heresies” Book III, Chapter 3:
“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”
Feel free to read the whole chapter, or indeed the whole book, and attempt to nitpick Protestant ‘dogma’ (as though there is such a thing), and ignore two-thousand years of counsels that determined the Truth. “Every man his own priest…”
newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm
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paul_c
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Pocohombre,
For some, like BRB, the Protestant churches lead them to the fullness of faith and truth that resides in the Catholic Church. Afterall, most protestant churches have more in common with the Catholic Church than they have differences and by giving their followers some of the truth and some of the grace, it can lead them to seek ALL of the truth and All of the grace that abounds in the Catholic Church.
For others, the Protestant churches lead them away from the Church and ultimately away from Christ. This is because while they teach some of the truth, they also teach some error and if the individual latches on to the error, rather than the truth, they are lost. And this is particularly true of those individuals who think they are serving God by denigrating his One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If you find yourself in a denomination that
preaches love of God and love of neighbor, that’s good. But if you find yourself in a denomination that spends time contrasting itself with the Catholic Church, it should be raise significant red flags for you because hate doesn’t come from God.
Follow where the Holy Spirit leads you. It will always lead you to love if you truly follow it because God is love. Have you considered that fact that the Holy Spirit led you to this website? Do you think it was to convert Catholics? Or maybe it was to expose you to the fullness of truth. Do you think of us as adversaries or as advocates trying to help you discern the truth? I know I hope we come across as your advocates because that is what we intend but often the discussions unfortunately can become twisted into more adversarial ones. When that happens, try to remember that the purpose of this website is to give Catholic Answers to those with questions about what the faith really teaches.
It is meant ultimately to give you an accurate view of what the Catholic church teaches and why so that you can decide for yourself whether it indeed teaches the truth about salvation handed down by the Apostles.
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brb3
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No, OSAS means once enlightened by Christ via confirmation in HS, we will always be recovered no matter what. It means the Good Shepherd never loses a wandering sheep. And, when I was first recovered, I tended to believe this true … except, I saw scripture saying Christ won’t force us against our free-will to return. As long as the pleasure of the Prodigal life remains, we won’t return. I need pain to wake me up. Christ can/does provide us PENANCE, in this life, to get our attention. If, we respond to that wakeup call … then there is hope for us. I could of just as easily got mad at God and cursed him for bringing so much misery to me. Recall Job’s wife told him to curse his ills and go die. We can also do that … and that would be suicide for us, the last, final straw.
So, when I was first recovered by the Catholic Church, I argued for OSAS here at CAF, for about a year. And the brethren here showed me the fuller truth on error of OSAS. I will tell you one thing that I strongly believe in that is scriptural … that is if we pray daily for SA, and love the Church of Christ and its life-giving Sacraments [esp. Eucharist] … we won’t go Prodigal route and wander away. So, we are to persevere always … and the CC makes this possible and almost guarantees us the Kingdom !! I’m a firm believer in serving our penance down here now … so as not to have to do so later !! I intend to remain fully-graced, and upon death go straight to bosom of the Lord. And, w/o the CC to help us … that’s an impossibility… IMO !!
Based on my ‘experience’ w/o the CC in my earlier lifetime.
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brb3
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CC error ? As in what doctrines ?
After 4 years of taking on most all of them, here and elsewhere, … everytime, my Protestant, evangelical, teachings those 8-10 big ones that were opposed to the CC] were found to be deficient or totally wrong. Although Protestants know our bible verses, we weren’t taught proper interpretation thereof. The CC is far superior, almost inerrant, in its understanding of scriptures. Because, they believe what the Apostles passed down to them, and they know the ECF’s par excellance’ !! As evangelicals … we only knew a tiny bit of Augustine’s works, and practically nothing of the rest … til the rebel priest Luther came along. That’s where our history began. Ha !!
Your journey with the CC has just begun …you have much to learn, and much more to give up as errant prior teachings … in coming year or so to come.
Make your job easy … Get the Vaticano ed. , 803 page, 1992 yr ed., CCC… and in 2-3 weeks you will be back on Apostolic track … if you were once a Catholic, who went off in search of another better church. Re-read Exodus on Korah’s rebellion … that will explain error of Reformation priests and otherwise.
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guanophore
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If you are speaking about obeying Catholic bishops, why would they?
But I think you are painting with too broad of a brush here. Many of the world’s Protetants have bishops or elders and do practice some submission and obedience to them. Of course, since they all subject their performance to Scripture, there is always an “out” when the particular bishop or elder does not appear to be congruent with Scripture.
One of the biggest hot button topics now is the ordination of women to these roles, and how that departs from the Apsotolic practice.
Some Protestants are so “obedient” to their pastors and teachers that they are led far astray by their doing so. They may call them Pastors or elders, but they certainly do still hold sway.
To be fair, what the Reformers were looking at in the successors of the Apostles in their day and age would have abhorred the Apostles themselves. The wretched materialism of the Bishops in Europe prior to the Reformation itself was sufficient cause for the rebellion that ensued.
I agree that, though men are always in need of reform, the doctrines of Christ are not. In reacting against a corrupt Bishop, it is not prudent to disavow the bishopric itself.
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pocohombre
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I did not read that at all in the site.In fact they sounded like they agreed on the total depravity of man ( free will but depraved). The individual has no faith. If he has any it is what ? A gift, the document read. When we are fashioned to seek him do you mean there is a void in us that only he can fill or do you mean there is something good in us desiring God ? I thought the article denied that, for “no one seeks after God”.
I
Same in any church, professing or rather “practicing” but I would say not really born again (baptized or unbaptized). Why is it so in yours, I mean why the poor catechesis ? Does knowing that cause they (Catholic parishioners) are baptized, and probably are decent people (hence not committing mortal sins left and right), probably going to heaven/purgatory, assurity just a confession away, dampen the motivation to teach otherwise ?
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brb3
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Some blame it on Vatican 2 …but, thats not the real cause. Parents are loath to discipline their children since mid 60’s, and liberalism & secularists in schools & society are major contributor to poor religious ed. The sins of the parents are falling upon their offspring. We are entering the great Apostasy period, when many will fall away from the Church.
IMO !! Having lived thru much of this time, and quickly seen values & morals decline to near pagan levels.
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pocohombre
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Thank you, very fair and generous. There does come a point though where a doctrine or practice can corrupt even a good man, and where a bad man can corrupt even a good doctrine and practice. This applies to all churches, sects, denominations.
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pocohombre
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That is true. If you seek/live in and by the spirit, you won’t seek/live in the flesh. I agree CC pretty much guarantees the way to the kingdom for it’s adherents. Really. I just don’t buy it all ,as you do buy Prot.guarantees. Just as OSAS can be abused so can CC teaching, as stated two threads earleir, about lack of motivation to properly catechize beyond the basics, cause you are all set, if not, you’re just a confessional away etc.No, OSAS means once enlightened by Christ via confirmation in HS, we will always be recovered no matter what. It means the Good Shepherd never loses a wandering sheep. And, when I was first recovered, I tended to believe this true … except, I saw scripture saying Christ won’t force us against our free-will to return. As long as the pleasure of the Prodigal life remains, we won’t return. I need pain to wake me up. Christ can/does provide us PENANCE, in this life, to get our attention. If, we respond to that wakeup call … then there is hope for us. I could of just as easily got mad at God and cursed him for bringing so much misery to me. Recall Job’s wife told him to curse his ills and go die. We can also do that … and that would be suicide for us, the last, final straw.
So, when I was first recovered by the Catholic Church, I argued for OSAS here at CAF, for about a year. And the brethren here showed me the fuller truth on error of OSAS. I will tell you one thing that I strongly believe in that is scriptural … that is if we pray daily for SA, and love the Church of Christ and its life-giving Sacraments [esp. Eucharist] … we won’t go Prodigal route and wander away. So, we are to persevere always … and the CC makes this possible and almost guarantees us the Kingdom !! I’m a firm believer in serving our penance down here now … so as not to have to do so later !! I intend to remain fully-graced, and upon death go straight to bosom of the Lord. And, w/o the CC to help us … that’s an impossibility… IMO !!
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fbl9
Guest
If the truth can corrupt then it is not he truth.
The truth can only set a man free of his coruption.
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