Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[Mike_SoCal]

God can place any conditions He wants on salvation. But if salvation is only available to begin with due to the merits of Christs work of redemption on the cross, then Who’s in control of salvation, regardless of whether or not we accept the offer?

John 3:18
Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Here’s the choice.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

John 3:18
Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Here’s the choice.

And then, if you read the rest of the Bible, you’ll find quite a bit more of conditionals, many of which are given by Christ Himself.

In fact, let’s take a look at the three verses immediately after the verse you quote:

“19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.”

Whoa! What’s all this talk of ‘deeds’? I mean, it’s determining faithfulness by works! What’s up with that? It’s almost like the Bible says lots and lots of things, some of which seem to contradict one another, and there was some way Christ intended us to interpret it… If only there was a way!

 

[pocohombre]

.
This is a cannon:

http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20080527/Old-Medieval-Cannons-746935.jpg Actually the spelling is "canon’. The council of Trent final proclamation has "canon"s as part of it’s writings/publication-these are where you find the anathemas. For instance the seventh session, the chapter on baptism has 13 canons. Correct?

This is the format used by all the councils since the first on described in Acts.

Thank you for explanation of

 

[pocohombre]

And then, if you read the rest of the Bible, you’ll find quite a bit more of conditionals, many of which are given by Christ Himself.

In fact, let’s take a look at the three verses immediately after the verse you quote:

“19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.”

Whoa! What’s all this talk of ‘deeds’? I mean, it’s determining faithfulness by works! What’s up with that? It’s almost like the Bible says lots and lots of things, some of which seem to contradict one another, and there was some way Christ intended us to interpret it… If only there was a way!

Do you eat and move cause you are alive or is that the condition to be alive ?

 

[pocohombre]

You are inventing a word here that is not in Scripture or in the Early writings. They are never called such things except by those persons labelled by the successors of the Apostles as heretics or pagans. Ignatius does not say Jesus held “tokens” in his hands, but Himself!

Quickly, “tokens” is the term used in Exodus KJV

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Do you eat and move cause you are alive or is that the condition to be alive ?

Well, if one is alive and doesn’t eat or move, they will soon be dead. Kind of like if someone is baptized, but then does not perform works of mercy, doesn’t pray, participate in sacraments, ect., in order to nurture and increase their response to God’s grace, they will surely lapse into sin and be spiritually dead. Just as before baptism, when we are moved by God’s common grace and the law on our hearts (or our purity and parent’s response to grace on our behalf) to seek Him. If we don’t respond to grace, whether unregenerated or regenrated, just as if we don’t eat, we will surely die. Even the unregenerated can fall deeper into spiritual death by rejecting God’s common grace.

Now that we’re done with that rather silly and failed attempt to prove a point by comparing physical life to spiritual life in an inexact way, let’s discuss the verses in question (which you didn’t do, as always). What exactly is being said by verses 19-21? Is there any reference whatsoever except deeds? When taken in context with verse 18, wouldn’t this mean that believing in Christ (and thus life) requires action? It surely seems that way.

 

[pocohombre]

Well, if one is alive and doesn’t eat or move, they will soon be dead. Kind of like if someone is baptized, but then does not perform works of mercy, doesn’t pray, participate in sacraments, ect., in order to nurture and increase their response to God’s grace, they will surely lapse into sin and be spiritually dead. Just as before baptism, when we are moved by God’s common grace and the law on our hearts (or our purity and parent’s response to grace on our behalf) to seek Him. If we don’t respond to grace, whether unregenerated or regenrated, just as if we don’t eat, we will surely die. Even the unregenerated can fall deeper into spiritual death by rejecting God’s common grace.
Now that we’re done with that rather silly and failed attempt to prove a point by comparing physical life to spiritual life in an inexact way, let’s discuss the verses in question (which you didn’t do, as always). What exactly is being said by verses 19-21? Is there any reference whatsoever except deeds? When taken in context with verse 18, wouldn’t this mean that believing in Christ (and thus life) requires action? It surely seems that way.

Thank you for your indulgence into the comparison, even if silly but Jesus made similar comparisons. Ok till you said “our purity or parents grace”. Agree that common grace is there - drawing us, and we can lose even that “hold onto what you have (light?) lest you even lose that” I think Jesus said. The five foolish virgins had initial oil (common grace) though still unregenerated. The wise virgins brought additional oil, that came from without, to put in the Lamp -as in regeneration. As far as John 3;1-21, the evil in verse 20 is different than 19.19 evil means morally worthless( kind of like we sin because we have sin nature). We are all in this bracket before we are saved-condemned, evil deeds, hate light, moral bankruptcy- disbelieving in Christ to say the least. Verse 21 to me means even though we are in above condition, we know it is right (truthful) to come to Christ the Light and that this deed will be shown to be of and from God (faith is a gift from God , no one goes to the father except thru Son and no one goes to the Son except he be drawn by the Father, the Spirit does 3 things , convict of sin, righteousness and judgement to come etc etc, and we have no righteousness except His). That is the deed done in truth brought about by God - This is the "work of the Father-that ye come to the Light believe on the Son . It is HIS work. We do not do good works , come to the Light ,then get saved. Is it a catch 22 ? Yes there is the beautiful word: “deeds”, as in action-like I can do something -a carnal desire as sure as Adam and Eve clothed themselves with fig leaves. Then we learn that God really wrought it in us to do the “deed”, so that no man boast. But absolutely, you better see deeds out of the believer, wrought by God. Like I said many posts ago , you get to the pearly gates and the sign says , “Choose ye this day whom you will serve (deed)” and you pass thru and on the other side the sign reads, “Saved, predestined since before the foundation of the world” ( what God hath wrought).

 

[PeaceInChrist]

pocohombre:
All good comes from God, even things done by unregenerate people. An unbaptized man who does anything good does it by the grace of God, through actual grace. The law is on all our hearts, after all. This doesn’t mean he has sanctifying grace, though. However, if one continues to respond to God’s grace, one will eventually take the steps necessary to be receive sanctifying grace in baptism, or if he doesn’t receive sacramental baptism before he dies but is responding to God’s grace in accordance with His will, hopefully baptism of desire. It’s all about responding to God’s grace. Response to actual grace, will lead to the gift of faith, which will lead to the seeking of sanctifying grace, and further response to grace. It’s all about grace.

I think you’re confusing the Catholic concept of works. Works are simply our response to God’s grace. This doesn’t mean that we somehow have righteousness apart from God. It merely means that God desires a free response to Him, not coerced or forced. Christ even says to Israel “How many times would I have drawn you to myself… but you would not.” Ireneaus uses this as a prime example of free will: God would have brought Israel to Himself, but they refused, and instead brought about various calamities on their nation.

God made us in His image. We think very physically when we think of His image, but in reality, much of His image is beyond physical. We were given a ‘heart’ to which God speaks. We were given an intellect which can comprehend. We were given awareness. And we were given a will. Without a will, we are essentially animals or puppets. We may as well not even have souls.

Additionally, if God doesn’t give everyone enough grace to respond to His grace, how, exactly, is He a just God? He would essentially be a tyrannical deity, Who damns for the sake of desiring suffering for His creations. Thankfully, according to Scripture, we know He desires that all should reach repentence and come to the knowledge of truth. He does predestine, though, but not to hell. We don’t know how His election coincides with our free will, except that He wills us to have free will, and His will and our free will exist together because He desires it should be so.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

catholic.com/magazine/articles/predestined-for-freedom

It’s a very thick theological concept, and much of it is merely speculative. We really don’t know how God’s election, predestination, and the gift of free will coincide perfectly, but they do. Thomism and Molinism attempt to explain it, but really, all we need to know is that, while He does elect and predestine, God’s grace is sufficient and that He desires us all to reach Him.

Lastly, if one ever decides to stop responding to God’s grace, and lapses through a grave rejection of Him, they will obviously and necessarily lose the divine life in them, as one cannot have two masters.

*If guanophore or anyone else sees errors in my statements, please correct them. Magisterium > user PeaceInChrist.

 

[guanophore]

The council of Trent final proclamation has "canon"s as part of it's writings/publication-these are where you find the anathemas. For instance the seventh session, the chapter  on baptism has 13 canons. Correct?

Yes, the Church sets for the rule of faith according to what was passed down from the Aposltes. Those who reject the standards of the One Faith are considered to have abandoned the faith, and are “anathema”.

 

[guanophore]

Quickly, “tokens” is the term used in Exodus KJV

In that case I will need you to help me, since I cannot find it.

Agree that common grace is there - drawing us, and we can lose even that “hold onto what you have (light?) lest you even lose that” I think Jesus said. The five foolish virgins had initial oil (common grace) though still unregenerated. The wise virgins brought additional oil, that came from without, to put in the Lamp -as in regeneration. As far as John 3;1-21, the evil in verse 20 is different than 19.19 evil means morally worthless( kind of like we sin because we have sin nature). We are all in this bracket before we are saved-condemned, evil deeds, hate light, moral bankruptcy- disbelieving in Christ to say the least.

This statement appears to be contaminated with the heresies of Calvin, which presupposes that the image of God in which we are created no longer exists after the Fall.

 Verse 21 to me means even though we are in above condition,   we know it is right (truthful) to come to Christ the Light and that this deed will be shown to be of and from God (faith is a gift from God , no one goes to the father except thru Son and no one goes to the Son except he be drawn by the Father,  the Spirit does 3 things , convict of sin, righteousness and judgement to come etc etc, and we have no righteousness except His).

Yes. God has created us for Himself, and our hearts are restless unti they rest in Him. We are made wtih the desire to seek Him, and to find Him. It is this desire or “faith” that meets with His drawing grace, enabling us to respond.

That is the deed done in truth brought about by God - This is the "work of the Father-that ye come to the Light believe on the Son . It is HIS work.

It is, but it does not happen without our participation, as Calvin postulated. The free will in which we are created must choose to respond to the work of the Holy Spirit.

As the Scripture teaches:

Heb 4:2
2 For indeed the good news came to us just as to them; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened

Those who hear the Gospel are enabled by Grace to respond, but a choice needs to be made.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days…

God calls all to choose life, but compels no one.

We do not do good works , come to the Light ,then get saved.

That all depends upon your point of view. The apostles did not teach monergism. Jesus taught that we must all do at least one “good work” to be saved:

John 6:28-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

This is a human work, as choice of the intellect and will. Granted, we cannot perform this “work” without His grace, but also His grace does not accomplish salvation without it.

Is it a catch 22 ? Yes there is the beautiful word: “deeds”, as in action-like I can do something -a carnal desire as sure as Adam and Eve clothed themselves with fig leaves.

I agree there are carnal actions or deeds of the flesh, but the required “deed” of placing faith in Him is not carnal. Neither are the "deeds’ that are done in faith, even among those who do not know Christ.

Cornelius was such a doer of good deeds.

Acts 10:1-2
In Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Italian Cohort, as it was called. 2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God.

And the parents of John the Baptist:

Luke 1:5-6
priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.

I think we will all agree that no one can live “righteous before God, blamelessly” without His grace.

*If guanophore or anyone else sees errors in my statements, please correct them. Magisterium > user PeaceInChrist.

Good post peace.

 

[pocohombre]

In that case I will need you to help me, since I cannot find it.

Exodus 12:13 "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where you are…and this day you shall keep unto you for a memorial…a feast …foreverl

This statement appears to be contaminated with the heresies of Calvin, which presupposes that the image of God in which we are created no longer exists after the Fall.

Calvin? So I said before we are saved we are: #1-“condemned” . Are you saying if we continue to walk in natural man’s path we will have eternal life with God, we will be judged righteous, we are not separated from God , notat enmity with Him, not headed for His judgement and wrath ? #2- we don’t do “evil deeds” before salvation? #3 “we hate light” Jesus was wrong when he said so ? # 4 “disbelieving in Christ”-hopefully you don’t disagree-again this is before we “believe” in Christ for salvation, #5 “morally bankrupt” so tell me before you get saved do you have any “currency” that will avail you to enter the pearly gates ? Please don’t confuse this with general morality. I think the Greek word for the evil deeds is “worthless deeds”. I used bankrupt. Again, this is in terms of God’s righteousness. I do agree with scripture that says fallen man can be righteous in unrighteousness( eg be “good” to our children")
God is a spirit and we are a living soul. To believe we have spiritual life before regeneration is perhaps to not understand God’s statement that the day Adam and Eve eat, they died (separated from God-dead in trespasses and sin)

Yes. God has created us for Himself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Him. We are made with the desire to seek Him, and to find Him. It is this desire or “faith” that meets with His drawing grace, enabling us to respond.

Yes,we are incomplete without Him,seek to fill the void,but wrongly,and restless. I draw the line and disagree that we “desire”’ Him for the flesh does not, hence we need regeneration of spirit.

It is, but it does not happen without our participation, as Calvin postulated. The free will in which we are created must choose to respond to the work of the Holy Spirit.

Calvin is too far to one side then, just as I think it is too far to say there is something good in us to decide righteously. The middle is that we have free will, but without God’s aid we won’t decide/ cooperate for/with righteousness.

That all depends upon your point of view. The apostles did not teach monergism. Jesus taught that we must all do at least one “good work” to be saved:

John 6:28-30
28 Then they said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

This is a human work, as choice of the intellect and will. Granted, we cannot perform this “work” without His grace, but also His grace does not accomplish salvation without it.

So is it our work or God’s work ? This is the work of God scripture says. God led my will and intellect to see my need of salvation, that I was headed for hell, and needed to be born again otherwise i could not profess Him as my Lord and savior (first fruit of salvation). It is like I was driving the car, and I had to let go of the steering wheel and trust God for the outcome. So my “inspired” work was to let go. My will was “inspired” to let go.

I agree there are carnal actions or deeds of the flesh, but the required “deed” of placing faith in Him is not carnal. Neither are the "deeds’ that are done in faith, even among those who do not know Christ.

This is problematic.How can one do a deed that is spiritual when he is not regenerated yet? In my story I let go of the wheel before I believed, before I was regenerated. The flesh still has a will and intellect and it is these He uses to bring us to the point, the brink of salvation. Thereafter we die and awaken a new creature.

Cornelius was such a doer of good deeds.

Yes,and some would say he was saved before Peter .

Acts 10:1-2
In Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Italian Cohort, as it was called. 2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God.

And the parents of John the Baptist:

Again, they were already saved and hence the good deeds.

Luke 1:5-6
priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.

I think we will all agree that no one can live “righteous before God, blamelessly” without His grace.

Amen

 

[paul_c]

Exodus 12:13 “And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where you are…and this day you shall keep unto you for a memorial…a feast …foreverl
Calvin? So I said before we are saved we are: #1-“condemned” . Are you saying if we continue to walk in natural man’s path we will have eternal life with God, we will be judged righteous, we are not separated from God , notat enmity with Him, not headed for His judgement and wrath ? #2- we don’t do “evil deeds” before salvation? #3 “we hate light” Jesus was wrong when he said so ? # 4 “disbelieving in Christ”-hopefully you don’t disagree-again this is before we “believe” in Christ for salvation, #5 “morally bankrupt” so tell me before you get saved do you have any “currency” that will avail you to enter the pearly gates ? Please don’t confuse this with general morality. I think the Greek word for the evil deeds is “worthless deeds”. I used bankrupt. Again, this is in terms of God’s righteousness. I do agree with scripture that says fallen man can be righteous in unrighteousness( eg be “good” to our children”)
God is a spirit and we are a living soul. To believe we have spiritual life before regeneration is perhaps to not understand God’s statement that the day Adam and Eve eat, they died (separated from God-dead in trespasses and sin)

Yes,we are incomplete without Him,seek to fill the void,but wrongly,and restless. I draw the line and disagree that we “desire”’ Him for the flesh does not, hence we need regeneration of spirit.
Calvin is too far to one side then, just as I think it is too far to say there is something good in us to decide righteously. The middle is that we have free will, but without God’s aid we won’t decide/ cooperate for/with righteousness.
So is it our work or God’s work ? This is the work of God scripture says. God led my will and intellect to see my need of salvation, that I was headed for hell, and needed to be born again otherwise i could not profess Him as my Lord and savior (first fruit of salvation). It is like I was driving the car, and I had to let go of the steering wheel and trust God for the outcome. So my “inspired” work was to let go. My will was “inspired” to let go.
This is problematic.How can one do a deed that is spiritual when he is not regenerated yet? In my story I let go of the wheel before I believed, before I was regenerated. The flesh still has a will and intellect and it is these He uses to bring us to the point, the brink of salvation. Thereafter we die and awaken a new creature.

Yes,and some would say he was saved before Peter .

Acts 10:1-2
In Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of the Italian Cohort, as it was called. 2 He was a devout man who feared God with all his household; he gave alms generously to the people and prayed constantly to God.

Again, they were already saved and hence the good deeds.

Luke 1:5-6
priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly order of Abijah. His wife was a descendant of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Amen

Poco,
I think you need to re-read matthew 25: 31-46, the parable of the last judgment. When Jesus separates the Sheep from the Goats, what is the basis? Its not because they acknowlege Jesus as Lord and savior, for in fact, all of them call Jesus, “Lord”. So that might separate the believers from the unbelievers. But what separates the sheep from the goats is clearly whether or not they carried out works of mercy for the least of their brothers.

Oh, and by the way, Cornelius most certainly was not saved before Peter came, other wise what we be the purpose of summoning him. The Holy Spirit only came after Peter preached to them the divine truths.

 

[pocohombre]

Poco,

I think you need to re-read matthew 25: 31-46, the parable of the last judgment. When Jesus separates the Sheep from the Goats, what is the basis? Its not because they acknowlege Jesus as Lord and savior, for in fact, all of them call Jesus, “Lord”. So that might separate the believers from the unbelievers. But what separates the sheep from the goats is clearly whether or not they carried out works of mercy for the least of their brothers.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
I think you need to re-read Matthew 25: 31-46, the parable of the last judgment. When Jesus separates the Sheep from the Goats, what is the basis? Its not because they acknowledge Jesus as Lord and savior, for in fact, all of them call Jesus, “Lord”. So that might separate the believers from the unbelievers. But what separates the sheep from the goats is clearly whether or not they carried out works of mercy for the least of their brothers.

But you see, this is the most fundamental argument against assurance of salvation. If you are saved but don’t follow up with the good works you are called to, then you lose your salvation. that is clear from Matthew 25.

Quote:
Oh, and by the way, Cornelius most certainly was not saved before Peter came, other wise what we be the purpose of summoning him. The Holy Spirit only came after Peter preached to them the divine truths.

Well, no one was justified by faith before they could be baptized and that couldn’t happen until Jesus died for our salvation. As for those that died prior to the crucifixion, Catholic teaching on this matter is that after the crucifixion Jesus descended to the dead for the purpose of saving those who lived lives of love but never heard the saving words of Christ. And what of those that lived lives of love after the Crucifixion but also never had the opportunity to hear the words of salvation (think native americans prior to Columbus)? The church teaches that they too can be saved through the baptism of desire (they would have chosen to be baptized had they known about it).

Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus a year earlier you must be born again,as if it were something every OT rabbi should know ?

I think Jesus was challenging him to rethink the scriptures and understand that you need to do more than follow ceremonial laws to be saved, but that you must fully embrace the will of God. Being circumcised was not enough, just as saying the sinners prayer or physically getting baptized is not enough. Its requires assent of the soul and mind to love God and neighbor and to do God’s will. That is what it means to be born again. Its a choice that must be lived

 

[brb3]

paul c;10603397:

Poco,
We go in a circle . And what determines good works? The inference is that even though many call him Lord not all are. I would not make the claim that works is the difference,or that it overrules the previous parables where one must Know him . But yes good works should follow knowing him. If I were to only read 31 -46 only, then good works is separater
So no one was regenerated, saved,justified by faith before Pentecost and the first sermon ? Why did Jesus tell Nicodemus a year earlier you must be born again,as if it were something every OT rabbi should know ?

Poco …

Yes, God has always had his faithful …all thru OT. They had faith the Messiah would come. They lived in anticipation of the Messiah. But, after the Cross …Messiah has come !

Cornelius knew about Christ, lived the Beatitudes he taught, but had not yet been Baptized by water or by HS. Christ wants all who truly seek him to receive Baptism by water & fire…and also to discover the true Apostolic, Universal Church… by which we can continue in well doing & receipt of grace via Sacraments, prayer & fasting---- as did first disciples.

Do you have any doubts that Cornelius & family failed to enter the Apostolic, Universal Church ? We both know they did. So, pray to Cornelius…for his intercession on this matter of —if he is your hero … on the matter of ----‘should I become Catholic, or remain a Protestant’.

 

[pocohombre]

But you see, this is the most fundamental argument against assurance of salvation. If you are saved but don’t follow up with the good works you are called to, then you lose your salvation. that is clear from Matthew 25.

 

[PRmerger]

No it is clear they were never saved in the first place.

I see, then.

Is there a way to tell if someone is a “faux believer” or truly saved? I mean, could someone think he’s saved but then really “never saved in the first place”?

 

[pocohombre]

I see, then.

Is there a way to tell if someone is a “faux believer” or truly saved? I mean, could someone think he’s saved but then really “never saved in the first place”?

of course.

 

[PRmerger]

of course.

Don’t be coy.

What is the way to tell if one is a faux believer and not a true believer?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Don’t be coy.

What is the way to tell if one is a faux believer and not a true believer?

I have a question, also: if there will be people who think they are saved, but are not, and there will be many of these ‘faux believers’, and they all “believe in Christ and call upon His name”, how, exactly, is that ‘assurance’ of salvation?