Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[pocohombre]

How does one know if he’s a faux believer or a true believer?

There is no question that there is assurance of salvation. Some of us will be saved.

The question is: can *you * (or I) know that you’re one of these people who will be saved?

The Bible doesn’t say, does it?

That’s a man made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, OldProf.

Pr .There is a way to know.Thank you for agreeing that scripture says there is assurnace of salvation(for those that will be saved as you state).Why would scripture or you say it if inddeed there was no way to know.If God says it, he must also provide the way for it.Ol P has shown it in John. The saved have an unction from the Holy One. It ceases to be what I think (for there is a way that seems right to every man but…or lean not on your own understanding) and is what God thinks and says and provides-good works, perseverance, desire etc…

 

[pocohombre]

How does one know if he’s a faux believer or a true believer?

There is no question that there is assurance of salvation. Some of us will be saved.

The question is: can *you * (or I) know that you’re one of these people who will be saved?

The Bible doesn’t say, does it?

That’s a man made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, OldProf.

Again,do you think Paul or any apostle or Ignatius worried about their salvation? Do you think they were not assured of it ? What ignited Ignatius to preach and admonish that last year of his life as if he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where he was headed? Knowing does not mean absence of perseverance.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

OldProf, I appreciate your zeal, but you exclude much of the requirements of being one of Jesus’ sheep. Of course His sheep will never be taken from Him. But being a sheep obviously has many implications.

For instance, to be a true believer, we must be baptized, we must love God above all and others as He loves them, we must uphold the commandments, we must eat the flesh of the Son of God, ect. Christ gives us many, many requirements for being a member of His flock, and indeed, anyone who faithfully follows His commands will never be snatched from His hand. These are the sheep, the elect: those that persevere. We see many examples of this in the saints, who did as Christ commanded, and as a result, they grew in holiness and received His promises.

Simply because God knows who will persevere, and has promised that those who obey Him will receive life, does not exclude free will or the possibility of later rejecting Him.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Again,do you think Paul or any apostle or Ignatius worried about their salvation? Do you think they were not assured of it ? What ignited Ignatius to preach and admonish that last year of his life as if he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt where he was headed? Knowing does not mean absence of perseverance.

Paul was indeed concerned about his salvation at one point, stating that we must work it out in fear and trembling, and run the race to receive the crown. The closer he got to death, the more confident he became, because he had lived the Lord’s will and was to be martyred. Ignatius, too, was to be martyred, and knew that, by his blood, he would be given the martyr’s crown in heaven. If ever there is someone “assured” of salvation, it is the martyr for Christ.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

People who don’t eat Jesus’ body and drink His blood are FAUX believers.

If they know the truth and continue to reject it until death then they have no life in them and will wind up in Hell!

God will judge whether they know the truth or not and whether they have life in them or not.

It is possible to unrepentantly reject the truth until death and go to Hell!

Why are so many people afraid of voicing the truth of this possibility/

The truth of it makes me tremble and makes me want to work out my salvation.

There is nothing wrong with that!

It isn’t all the story of course–Jesus’ Love and Mercy is TRUE, too.

But it is PART of the truth and it should be SPOKEN!

Branded robotic untransformed dung going to heaven isn’t beautiful–it’s a False horror story told by the devil!

 

[pocohombre]

It’s always interesting that Protestants remove the bible from the apostolic faith that produced it. The books of the bible, written by, for and about the Catholic Church were determined to be inspired and inerrant based on the Tradition handed down to the Church by the apostles. And of course, it’s interesting that Protestants believe that the Catholic Church was infallible in selecting the books of the bible (out of 300-400 writings in circulation) but don’t believe that it is infallible on faith and morals.

To the point of following the commandments to be saved. From the 2nd century…200+ before the bible:

"But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’" Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2 (A.D. 135).

"They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them." Shepherd of Hermas, 2 Comm 7 (A.D. 155).

"But those who do not keep his commandments, flee from his life, and despise him. But he has his own honour with the Lord. All, therefore, who shall despise him, and not follow his commands, deliver themselves to death, and every one of them will be guilty of his own blood. But I enjoin you, that you obey his commands, and you will have a cure for your former sins." Shepherd of Hermas, 3 Sim 10:2 (A.D. 155).

since when does assurance mean you won’t be walking the walk?

 

[pocohombre]

People who don’t eat Jesus’ body and drink His blood are FAUX believers.

 

[pocohombre]

Paul was indeed concerned about his salvation at one point, stating that we must work it out in fear and trembling, and run the race to receive the crown. The closer he got to death, the more confident he became, because he had lived the Lord’s will and was to be martyred. Ignatius, too, was to be martyred, and knew that, by his blood, he would be given the martyr’s crown in heaven. If ever there is someone “assured” of salvation, it is the martyr for Christ.

That is CC interpretation of that scripture.There is another view,and it was not salvation he was worried about,but fullfilling all that he was called to do as an apostle.He was the most ambitious missionary ever to live.

 

[OldProf]

This is a ridiculous concept. Belief by definition is what the person beliefs. If he thinks that Jesus is his lord and savior, then he is a believer. The fact that he may not be saved doesn’t change that. In fact, that is more that reality that more than simple belief is required to get to heaven.

It is your misunderstanding that makes you believe this.

You are wrong to assume that just because you have faith or at one time had faith, that you are assured of heaven. Do you partake of the Eucharist? Jesus says that if you don’t, there is no life within you (John 6:53). And he says that if you don’t remain in Christ, then you will be thrown into the fire (John 15: 6) Read the whole truth, not only what you would like to be the truth.

paul c, you say “faux believers” “is a ridiculous concept”? Can’t agree since it is a BIBLICAL concept. It is correct theological doctrine. I could prove it in many ways, but these two will suffice:

Number 1

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

That is Jesus’ statement near the end of the Sermon on the Mount - Matthew 7. We all know that Jesus knows His sheep. But of these people Jesus says “I never knew you.” They thought they were believers, but they weren’t. They were “faux believers.” Note, they weren’t at one point in time “born again” and then they committed a mortal sin. That would mean that they were “known” by Jesus at one time as one of His sheep. So Jesus teaches here that being an “active Christian” on the outside doesn’t prove you are a true believer on the inside.

Number 2

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!”

That is written by Paul in his final warnings to the Corinthians - see 2 Cor 13:5. I’ve often used this verse in this thread in relation to the evidence lists. The fact is, if Jesus Christ isn’t “in you” (mind of Christ, 1 Cor 2:16, sealed by the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13-14), then you aren’t a believer - you are a “faux believer.”

Next you say I misunderstand assurance. I say I agree with John who writes, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13) Do you agree with John?

Finally, I’m not discussing off-topic subjects (Eucharist) that can really get us away from THE topic of the Assurance of Salvation (lets avoid rabbit trails that Protestants and Catholics have argued over and over - stick with assurance).

So, I’m saying that I agree with Jesus when He says, “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:28) And when I studied His statement in depth I learned that His “never” actually is much stronger, and he is actually saying “I give them eternal life, and they shall never, not now or and any future time, perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

So I agree with Jesus. Do you agree with Jesus?

You want to use John 15:6 - that won’t help you because there is a better interpretation that doesn’t contradict what Jesus says in John 10:28. You want me to read the whole truth. That is an interesting statement to a person like me who has many years of study and discussion in systematic theology. I believe I have read the whole truth. But if I’m wrong, I also want to know where I’m wrong so my understanding of my Lord and Savior is not tarnished with error.

I have to say I do find that I agree a lot with what Jesus says and what the Apostles are writing - perhaps I have the mind of Christ and the illumination of the Holy Spirit?

Regards, OldProf

 

[Porknpie]

since when does assurance mean you won’t be walking the walk?

I’ve met many a protestant who believe in OSAS…who believe it does not matter what they do after they have been saved. Better to ask them… this is a new gospel, a new tradition invented by man.



As the bible says, I am saved, I am being saved and I have hopeful confidence but not false assurance that I will be saved.

 

[PRmerger]

Pr .There is a way to know.

Ok.

What is the way to know whether one is a faux believer vs a true believer?

And please cite the Bible verse that details this.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

That is CC interpretation of that scripture.There is another view,and it was not salvation he was worried about,but fullfilling all that he was called to do as an apostle.He was the most ambitious missionary ever to live.

Brother, you say he was ambitious as though this was a human competition he was participating in, and sought to win merely out of pride. This is not the case, as Paul was a saintly man, and was not competing to be recognized or to ‘win’ for the sake of winning. He was fulfilling the commision that God had given him as an Apostle, and woe to him if he didn’t preach.

But he did, and he was perfected and made holy in his weakness. He ran the race, worked out his salvation in fear and trembling, and was awarded the victors crown.

It seems to me that him even mentioning that we must work out our salvation is a pretty strong indictment of assurance.

 

[paul_c]

Was circumcision efficacious, for all who were?

Why are you deflecting? I showed you that the new testament sacraments were efficacious and you respond by comparing them to circumcision? Do you not realize that before Christ’s passion, the gates of heaven were closed? So circumcision can never be efficacious in that way that baptism is. Circumcision was the sign of the covenant between God and the Israelites. God would be there God and they would be His people. But it never imparted grace like the Christian sacraments.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

That is good scriture talk, for if you literally believe you must eat him you must literally also believe the consequences. All non-CC RPers are going where you said if you are really serious about literal interpretation of john 6 bread discourse. Apparently however, CC teaches somehow there is hope for those who don’t take literal view, so are you at odd’s with CC teaching?

I’m not Catholic so my view of the communion practice is a little different.

The wafer or bread, is the body of Jesus and the wine represents his blood. Do you receive this portion of the Eucharist while quietly mediating to yourself? At my church, we partake in communion, and when we do…I am very meditative while I do.

Luke 22:19

And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

The manna from heaven was the original Bread of Life, I believe.

I don’t know a whole lot specifically on manna, but I know that it was a life sustaining.

Jesus was a “little” more than just life sustaining.

He WAS life!

 

[Porknpie]

The manna from heaven was the original Bread of Life, I believe.

I don’t know a whole lot specifically on manna, but I know that it was a life sustaining.

Jesus was a “little” more than just life sustaining.

He WAS life!

Aaron, manna was true bread from heaven and people still died. It foreshadowed the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Receive this true bread from heaven and live forever.

That’s why St Ignatius of Antioch, who followed St John, wrote this

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

Likewise, Justin Martyr says we have been taught… Taught by whom? Christ taught the apostles and the apostles taught their descendants…

"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).

Nothing symbolic here Aaron. Hope you understand that.

 

[pocohombre]

I’ve met many a protestant who believe in OSAS…who believe it does not matter what they do after they have been saved. Better to ask them… this is a new gospel, a new tradition invented by man.



As the bible says, I am saved, I am being saved and I have hopeful confidence but not false assurance that I will be saved.

correct on osas,but who says salvation assurance has to be in strict definition with Calvinism?That is one extreme,but I think CC teaching on assurance is other end of spectrum.I believe the truth lies somewhere in between. The Pearly Gate sign says, “choose ye this day whom ye will serve,and well done for you have chosen the Lord” .The other side of same sign says, “I have chosen you, and predestined you since before the foundation of the world”.

 

[brb3]

OSAS … is clearly unscriptural. Salvation Assurance, on the otherhand, is supportable in scripture and tradition.

Christ and the Apostles taught us to do whatever needed to be certain of our goodstanding IN CHRIST. If we have doubts, we are not fully filled with HS and fully cooperating with grace the Lord provides us on daily basis.

If confession needed … then we confess our post-baptismal sins. If failure to receive Eucharist, or failure to receive rightly … then we correct that fault, that grieveous fault … and once again allow the graces the Eucharist offers us to flow from on high. If we are lax in being evangelists, educators, doers of service to those in need, attendance at Church is not 100 %, failure to be faithful daily in prayer for others and the Church,etc ---- then we allow teachings of Church & Scripture, and the instruction of Paraclete to bring us to correction.

In otherwords … we have our High Calling in Christ, as the His Redeemed, which we are to faithfully uphold. When we do, we are fully cooperating with Grace of the Lord for us … and we have SA. When we don’t … we need to promptly remediate our faults, and fully restore our discipleship to the Kingdom’s standards.

Am I wrong … Poco & Old Prof ?

 

[brb3]

Protestants do not have the luxury of being on the big old, unsinkable luxury cruise liner, giving you everything necessary for a safe journey. Protetstants indeed must be concerned with what, or whom they are relying on for their salvation. They have learned not to place their faith in anything claiming to be unsinkable, who claim moral and spiritual certainty…

And why not ?

Have their Pastors not done their homework on the roots of Christianity … and told their flocks the full truth. Have the Protestant Theology Colleges failed to provide Pastors the complete truth/education ?

Or is the Catholic Church’s fault ? Have we failed to evangelize as we should ? Have we failed to place a CCC in the hands of every Protestant ?

IMO … its both. But, the CC is recently working harder to remediate the information gap. Soon Protestants will no longer be able to say they haven’t heard the full truth.

 

[OldProf]

Ok.

What is the way to know whether one is a faux believer vs a true believer?

And please cite the Bible verse that details this.

PR, I have provided the Evidence Lists on several occassions, and on this thread it is #327 on 19 Feb 2013 (page 22 on my computer) at:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=751308&highlight=EVIDENCE+LIST&page=22

You can also see a pretty good discussion of this in the first AoS thread if you care to look at that. I gave the link.

Now, paul c posted #329 right after (and he had posted before), where he thought, I guess, that he had a clever response in, “Old Prof, I have pointed out to you in the past that neither list is specific to Christians. I would think you would alter your list to at least make mention of Jesus and His Church.”

I didn’t respond back to him (that I remember), because someone who could ignore the entire context of the discussion (assurance of salvation topic, Bible verses, Bible discussion, Christ as Savior and Good Shepherd, discussion on CA forums, more Bible (Jesus statements, John and Paul’s writings), etc.) and make that kind of statement would elicit a response from me that would be somewhat degrading to their intelligence. I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut when that happens. OF COURSE this AoS discussion we are having here is all about what the Bible teaches about the assurance of salvation, and that the Bible tells us how Christian’s act and should act. It is the Christian’s assurance of salvation that is the PRIMARY topic!

But, back to the lists.

By each of the evidence list statements, we could supply several Bible verses. The BIGGIE is Paul’s “examine yourself” statement in 2 Cor 13:5 that gets it all started.

The other thing we Christians would expect from our changed and regenerated life is an agreement with inspired Scripture. That is why I’ve harped a bit on the 1 John epistle. It is really like a checklist (that appeals to me as a former US Air Force member) we can read down and verse after verse say, “I agree, I agree, yes, I agree, correct, true, I agree …” Then we reach this crucial point where John writes: (1 John 5:13)

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Is the TRUE CHRISTIAN, THE ELECT ONES, THE SHEEP OF JESUS, going to say, “No, I don’t agree that you can know that you have eternal life!”? Of course not.

The evidence lists 1 and 2 are VERY good identifiers of the true believers from the “faux” believers. I had better exhibit behaviors in List 2 if I’m going to have a assurance of my salvation. On that, the Bible is clear.

In Christ, OldProf