Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[OldProf]

OSAS … is clearly unscriptural. Salvation Assurance, on the otherhand, is supportable in scripture and tradition.

Christ and the Apostles taught us to do whatever needed to be certain of our goodstanding IN CHRIST. If we have doubts, we are not fully filled with HS and fully cooperating with grace the Lord provides us on daily basis.

If confession needed … then we confess our post-baptismal sins. If failure to receive Eucharist, or failure to receive rightly … then we correct that fault, that grieveous fault … and once again allow the graces the Eucharist offers us to flow from on high. If we are lax in being evangelists, educators, doers of service to those in need, attendance at Church is not 100 %, failure to be faithful daily in prayer for others and the Church,etc ---- then we allow teachings of Church & Scripture, and the instruction of Paraclete to bring us to correction.

In otherwords … we have our High Calling in Christ, as the His Redeemed, which we are to faithfully uphold. When we do, we are fully cooperating with Grace of the Lord for us … and we have SA. When we don’t … we need to promptly remediate our faults, and fully restore our discipleship to the Kingdom’s standards.

Am I wrong … Poco & Old Prof ?

brb3, I think we agree with much. But OSAS - that is Scriptural too.

Believers are born of God. (John 1:13)

Beleivers have eternal life. (John 5:24)

The Father gives the elect to the Son. (John 6:37-47)

The Son will always do His Father’s will and lose none of them. (John 6:38-40)

Jesus, The Good Shepherd, has His sheep and they will never, not now or at any future time, perish. (John 10:27-28)

Jesus prays specifically for the elect. (John 17)

The elect are appointed unto eternal life. (Acts 13:48)

The elect have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:16)

The elect are sealed by the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14)

We can be confident that what God has started He will finish. (Php 1:6)

Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. (Heb 12:1-2)

brb3, it is not difficult. Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

(I just did this from memory without checking, so if I gave an improper reference … oops!)

In Christ, OldProf

 

[brb3]

context of the discussion (assurance of salvation)

By each of the evidence list statements, we could supply several Bible verses. The BIGGIE is Paul’s “examine yourself” statement in 2 Cor 13:5 that gets it all started.

The other thing we Christians would expect from our changed and regenerated life is an agreement with inspired Scripture. That is why I’ve harped a bit on the 1 John epistle. It is really like a checklist (that appeals to me as a former US Air Force member) we can read down and verse after verse say, “I agree, I agree, yes, I agree, correct, true, I agree …” Then we reach this crucial point where John writes: (1 John 5:13)

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Is the TRUE CHRISTIAN, THE ELECT ONES, THE SHEEP OF JESUS, going to say, “No, I don’t agree that you can know that you have eternal life!”? Of course not.

The evidence lists 1 and 2 are VERY good identifiers of the true believers from the “faux” believers. I had better exhibit behaviors in List 2 if I’m going to have a assurance of my salvation. On that, the Bible is clear.

In Christ, OldProf

Yes, a check-list is very helpful … in our ‘examination of conscience’. Catholics are taught this is very essential … and always to do before our periodic confessions to priest. Nevertheless, it is also good to do this more often, weekly in fact … as we enter the Lord’s Temple. In the old days … pre-1970’s, Catholic normally confessed to priest on frequent basis, often weekly. These days … they often think annually @ during the Holy Season is sufficient !!!

My, My … how Traditions have changed, in my lifetime ! Maybe this is why many modern-day Catholic lack (or claim to lack) SA. Are we Catholics losing our long-standing, historical tradition on SA ? God forbid, ---- let the Protestants challenge us on this matter, and not allow us to.

But Old Prof., regarding your check list on John. Don’t stop at Chp. 5 … what about essential need of Chap. 6 too ??

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I have provided the Evidence Lists on several occassions, and on this thread it is #327 on 19 Feb 2013 (page 22 on my computer) at:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=751308&highlight=EVIDENCE+LIST&page=22

Fair enough, Old Prof.

My next question, then, is it is possible for a person to think that he is a true believer, but actually be a faux believer?

 

[paul_c]

PR, I have provided the Evidence Lists on several occassions, and on this thread it is #327 on 19 Feb 2013 (page 22 on my computer) at:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=751308&highlight=EVIDENCE+LIST&page=22

You can also see a pretty good discussion of this in the first AoS thread if you care to look at that. I gave the link.

Now, paul c posted #329 right after (and he had posted before), where he thought, I guess, that he had a clever response in, “Old Prof, I have pointed out to you in the past that neither list is specific to Christians. I would think you would alter your list to at least make mention of Jesus and His Church.”

I didn’t respond back to him (that I remember), because someone who could ignore the entire context of the discussion (assurance of salvation topic, Bible verses, Bible discussion, Christ as Savior and Good Shepherd, discussion on CA forums, more Bible (Jesus statements, John and Paul’s writings), etc.) and make that kind of statement would elicit a response from me that would be somewhat degrading to their intelligence. I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut when that happens. OF COURSE this AoS discussion we are having here is all about what the Bible teaches about the assurance of salvation, and that the Bible tells us how Christian’s act and should act. It is the Christian’s assurance of salvation that is the PRIMARY topic!

But, back to the lists.

By each of the evidence list statements, we could supply several Bible verses. The BIGGIE is Paul’s “examine yourself” statement in 2 Cor 13:5 that gets it all started.

The other thing we Christians would expect from our changed and regenerated life is an agreement with inspired Scripture. That is why I’ve harped a bit on the 1 John epistle. It is really like a checklist (that appeals to me as a former US Air Force member) we can read down and verse after verse say, “I agree, I agree, yes, I agree, correct, true, I agree …” Then we reach this crucial point where John writes: (1 John 5:13)

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Is the TRUE CHRISTIAN, THE ELECT ONES, THE SHEEP OF JESUS, going to say, “No, I don’t agree that you can know that you have eternal life!”? Of course not.

The evidence lists 1 and 2 are VERY good identifiers of the true believers from the “faux” believers. I had better exhibit behaviors in List 2 if I’m going to have a assurance of my salvation. On that, the Bible is clear.

In Christ, OldProf

Here’s your evidence lists:

Evidence List 1:

A. VISIBLE MORALITY
B. INTELLECTUAL KNOWLEDGE
C. RELIGIOUS INVOLVEMENT
D. ACTIVE MINISTRY
E. CONVICTION OF SIN
F. ASSURANCE
G. TIME OF DECISION

Evidence List 2:

A. LOVE FOR GOD
B. REPENTANCE FROM SIN
C. GENUINE HUMILITY
D. DEVOTION TO GOD’S GLORY
E. CONTINUAL PRAYER
F. SELFLESS LOVE
G. SEPARATION FROM THE WORLD
H. SPIRITUAL GROWTH
I. OBEDIENT LIVING

Now I will grant you that these are a subset of things that a saint will do (although assurance is no guarantee of anything). I’m encouraged to see that you aren’t claiming that it is by faith alone that you are saved. And it is obvious from this list that your salvation is never assured because you can’t be sure that you will continue to fulfill all these obligations in the future, even if you are fulfilling them now.

But at I was trying to point out to you is that this list doesn’t mention Jesus once. Isn’t it through Jesus that we are saved? Isn’t He the gate? You are missing the sacraments and doing Jesus’s will. Those are fundamental to entering heaven.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, a check-list is very helpful … in our ‘examination of conscience’. Catholics are taught this is very essential … and always to do before our periodic confessions to priest. Nevertheless, it is also good to do this more often, weekly in fact … as we enter the Lord’s Temple. In the old days … pre-1970’s, Catholic normally confessed to priest on frequent basis, often weekly. These days … they often think annually @ during the Holy Season is sufficient !!!

My, My … how Traditions have changed, in my lifetime ! Maybe this is why many modern-day Catholic lack (or claim to lack) SA. Are we Catholics losing our long-standing, historical tradition on SA ? God forbid, ---- let the Protestants challenge us on this matter, and not allow us to.

But Old Prof., regarding your check list on John. Don’t stop at Chp. 5 … what about essential need of Chap. 6 too ??

Be careful, presumption is a sin. Just do your best and have hope in the Lord but do not seek any guarantees. If you love God and neighbor as God will’s you to, you will have the peace of Christ

 

[brb3]

But OSAS - that is Scriptural too.

Believers are born of God. (John 1:13)

Beleivers have eternal life. (John 5:24)

The Father gives the elect to the Son. (John 6:37-47)

The Son will always do His Father’s will and lose none of them. (John 6:38-40)

Jesus, The Good Shepherd, has His sheep and they will never, not now or at any future time, perish. (John 10:27-28)

Jesus prays specifically for the elect. (John 17)

The elect are appointed unto eternal life. (Acts 13:48)

The elect have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:16)

The elect are sealed by the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1:13-14)

We can be confident that what God has started He will finish. (Php 1:6)

Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. (Heb 12:1-2)

Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

In Christ, OldProf

All the above are true … and refer to our Adoption / Son-Daughtership IN CHRIST.

But, now our new lives begin. We are baby Christians on milk (as Poco likes to remind us). We grow up among the tares, have to survive the drought, the winds, the freezing temps, the temptations of satan, worldly pleasures, etc. We must successfully transition to meat the Body/Blood of Christ in Eucharist ]. We must persevere, made possible in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. We must show works c/w our high calling In Christ, and always be repentant of heart, ready to suffer and fast … able to discipline our body/minds.

Initially, I never got past the milk stage. Then, for several decades, I withdrew from all Church attendance, lived life of Prodigal … more secular than the seculars. But, was I convicted of my errs ? Not for a long while.
I always fell back on the OSAS belief. I rationalized all my sins away, they having been forgiven [in advance] on my first Rebirth BIRTHDAY ! God knew I still had my old sin nature, and would til my death … so why try to fight against the inevitable nature inherited from Adam ? Just declare Christ as Lord, that was key. Never deny the H.S., never speak against the H.S.---- since that was the only sin that couldn’t/wouldn’t be forgiven, per scripture.
And, regarding the true Church … who could really know ? What mattered was what was in our hearts … who we would confess as Lord, on the Judgment Day. My idea of Judgment Day was … I walk up before God the Father, He asks me what is my Justification for being allowed entry to Heaven … and I look to his right hand and point to Christ, and say “Christ did it all for me … that is my only plea”.

Now, that is the ultimate absurdity of OSAS logic. But, I kid you not … that was my sincere belief. I only thought I would miss out on the Awards of the Faithful. I would get in, just not with any honors.

Then, when I hit bottom, judged by God in this world for 2 years … I woke up in the Pig Pen … full of guilt and remorse, and ready to reform my ideas and actions. There is no Protestant church on this earth, that could of recovered me. None had the full truth of the Catholic Church. God, provided me the proofs on Catholicism day after day. Once I got on the Road to Rome, it was an amazing journey… headed home to the Father ! The Eucharist became my meat, and caused me to gain strength, amazing graces, & fully recovered. That’s when I was 100 % on board Christ’s New Covenant Ark… knowing that one Church of many, was the one that began on Pentecost Sunday, 1st Century.

OSAS— is a death trap for many, and almost claimed me. SALVATION ASSURANCE — is what the CC provides us on daily basis.

 

[brb3]

Be careful, presumption is a sin. Just do your best and have hope in the Lord but do not seek any guarantees. If you love God and neighbor as God will’s you to, you will have the peace of Christ

Presumption w/o evidence…as St James teaches !!! “Faith w/o works is dead.”

I was all about Presumption — believing my OSAS status for several decades. I was clearly under Satan’s spell, and his disciple…w/o even realizing it.

W/0 the clear teaching of CC … even the Reborn Election can be deceived ! I’m exhibit A, of how OSAS is a Satan snare.

 

[Porknpie]

correct on osas,but who says salvation assurance has to be in strict definition with Calvinism?That is one extreme,but I think CC teaching on assurance is other end of spectrum.I believe the truth lies somewhere in between. The Pearly Gate sign says, “choose ye this day whom ye will serve,and well done for you have chosen the Lord” .The other side of same sign says, “I have chosen you, and predestined you since before the foundation of the world”.

So do you believe that those who God predestines change over time? Why does St Ignatius say to pray without ceasing for others so that they repent and may attain God? If your view of predestination is true, why pray for others as St Ignatius instructs? Remember, he was a follower of St John…who was taught by Christ.

"And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’" Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, 10 ( A.D. 110).

And Justin Martyr speaks of our free will causing one to be apostatized from God.

**"[T]hat eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, **and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition." Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1 (A.D. 156).

 

[PRmerger]

And it is obvious from this list that your salvation is never assured because you can’t be sure that you will continue to fulfill all these obligations in the future, even if you are fulfilling them now.

Yeah. What paulc said. :yup:

 

[PRmerger]

Pr .There is a way to know.Thank you for agreeing that scripture says there is assurnace of salvation(for those that will be saved as you state).Why would scripture or you say it if inddeed there was no way to know.

Why, we know that some are saved. They are the saints in heaven.

We just don’t know if we will be one of those who will be saved. You can’t know if you’re one of the saved, or one of those hapless fellows who only thinks he’s saved but really isn’t.

 

[brb3]

Why, we know that some are saved. They are the saints in heaven.

We just don’t know if we will be one of those who will be saved. You can’t know if you’re one of the saved, or one of those hapless fellows who only thinks he’s saved but really isn’t.

Well, we don’t know about you, but … we can know about ourselves ! We are to do as Paul advised, imitate him, and judge ourselves [with God’s help] … and be able to say as he “I am unaware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me”. Each man/woman can examine him/herself, in light of scripture, tradition, and Church teachings – and know if he is a true disciple of the Lord.

Paul taught Timothy, et al …“study to know thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of God”. 2 Tim. 2:15
And, if we cooperate with God’s grace [desired / provided] … we can enjoy SA @ this hour. Do we know our tomorrow … No

… but we know the Lord will keep his promises to us. If we persevere in faith, well doing, and continued receipt of the essential Sacraments of the Church … we will surely sit at table in the Lord’s Kingdom come, at the last Trump.

 

[OldProf]

Why, we know that some are saved. They are the saints in heaven.

We just don’t know if we will be one of those who will be saved. You can’t know if you’re one of the saved, or one of those hapless fellows who only thinks he’s saved but really isn’t.

John says we can know. (1 John 5:13) I have to believe him. And I have to believe the Bible gives us the evidences that true believers will exhibit - hence, the evidence lists.

I’m going to answer several of the recent posts in this response:

brb3 #957. "But Old Prof., regarding your check list on John. Don’t stop at Chp. 5 … what about essential need of Chap. 6 too ??"

The checklist was for 1 John which only has 5 chapters. And I’ve quoted from John 6 (especially verses 37-47) a lot.

PRmerger #958. "My next question, then, is it is possible for a person to think that he is a true believer, but actually be a faux believer?"

Yes. That is why it is listed in List 1 of the Evidence Lists. False assurance is possible, which is why we have to examine ourselves. If Evidence List 2 is true, then Evidence List 1 will also be true. If only Evidence List 1 (or only a few parts of it) is true, but NOT Evidence List 2, then that person is probably not a Christian - they are likely suffering from a false assurance. (See brb3’s testimony given above as a good example.)

paul c #959. "But at I was trying to point out to you is that this list doesn’t mention Jesus once. Isn’t it through Jesus that we are saved? Isn’t He the gate? You are missing the sacraments and doing Jesus’s will. Those are fundamental to entering heaven."

The context regarding the Lists is clearly biblical, clearly salvation, and clearly Christ centered. Yes, Jesus is the ONLY WAY. I agree with the following verses: (for brevity, only a few are given)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:16-18)

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24)

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:4-5)

1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:1-2, which follows on Heb 11 talking about the OT heroes of the faith.)

paul c, do you agree with those verses? True Christians will love Jesus and good works will flow from their faith. It was true of the Old Testament Saints, and so it continued in the New Testament when we have now identified the Messiah (fulfilled prophecy) and know of His death and resurrection. Our works don’t save. We know the thief on the cross next to Jesus would agree with that.

In Christ, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

All the above are true … and refer to our Adoption / Son-Daughtership IN CHRIST.

But, now our new lives begin. We are baby Christians on milk (as Poco likes to remind us). We grow up among the tares, have to survive the drought, the winds, the freezing temps, the temptations of satan, worldly pleasures, etc. We must successfully transition to meat the Body/Blood of Christ in Eucharist ]. We must persevere, made possible in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. We must show works c/w our high calling In Christ, and always be repentant of heart, ready to suffer and fast … able to discipline our body/minds.

Initially, I never got past the milk stage. Then, for several decades, I withdrew from all Church attendance, lived life of Prodigal … more secular than the seculars. But, was I convicted of my errs ? Not for a long while.
I always fell back on the OSAS belief. I rationalized all my sins away, they having been forgiven [in advance] on my first Rebirth BIRTHDAY ! God knew I still had my old sin nature, and would til my death … so why try to fight against the inevitable nature inherited from Adam ? Just declare Christ as Lord, that was key. Never deny the H.S., never speak against the H.S.---- since that was the only sin that couldn’t/wouldn’t be forgiven, per scripture.
And, regarding the true Church … who could really know ? What mattered was what was in our hearts … who we would confess as Lord, on the Judgment Day. My idea of Judgment Day was … I walk up before God the Father, He asks me what is my Justification for being allowed entry to Heaven … and I look to his right hand and point to Christ, and say “Christ did it all for me … that is my only plea”.

Now, that is the ultimate absurdity of OSAS logic. But, I kid you not … that was my sincere belief. I only thought I would miss out on the Awards of the Faithful. I would get in, just not with any honors.

Then, when I hit bottom, judged by God in this world for 2 years … I woke up in the Pig Pen … full of guilt and remorse, and ready to reform my ideas and actions. There is no Protestant church on this earth, that could of recovered me. None had the full truth of the Catholic Church. God, provided me the proofs on Catholicism day after day. Once I got on the Road to Rome, it was an amazing journey… headed home to the Father ! The Eucharist became my meat, and caused me to gain strength, amazing graces, & fully recovered. That’s when I was 100 % on board Christ’s New Covenant Ark… knowing that one Church of many, was the one that began on Pentecost Sunday, 1st Century.

OSAS— is a death trap for many, and almost claimed me. SALVATION ASSURANCE — is what the CC provides us on daily basis.

brb3, that is quite a testimony. You clearly had a fundamentally flawed understanding of OSAS. The Lordship of Jesus Christ is necessary - the Evidence Lists show how that will appear. Compare how you used to be against those lists and you’ll see that you fail the test! I’m guessing that now you will pass because now Jesus Christ is the Lord of your life!

In Christ, OldProf

 

[brb3]

You clearly had a fundamentally flawed understanding of OSAS. The Lordship of Jesus Christ is necessary - the Evidence Lists show how that will appear. Compare how you used to be against those lists and you’ll see that you fail the test!

Old Prof … I like your check list, but let me suggest it is lacking.

I too had my check list of Cafeteria Protestant favorite Bible verses. And, they were insufficient to spare me from "falling from grace’. I found myself focusing on my checklist scriptures, at the exclusion of others in scripture that didn’t fit/agree with my list.

For example, I see you love and use alot of John’s writings in your list. But, as I said earlier … you must use them all, not only his 3 shorter books, but the longer Gospel. You need Chps. 6 and 15 ! Actually, we must use the entire Bible, both OT and NT. All of it must be on our checklist. Our Soteriology/Christology list … must include all of scripture.

Now, this is a very tough proposition for Protestants. I could not make them all fit, and give me a single, consistent message. So, like Luther, I would ignore those that I didn’t like. And, no one else in my Protestant Church could either. So much of scripture was a mystery to us. And, after awhile the Church kinda seemed unnecessary, unhelpful, non-essential. Everyman a king, everyman God’s temple, … why bother with Church at all ?

But, in very short order, 4-5 years, I transitioned away from the Protestant church … and could support my decision from my checklist scriptures. Afterall, if my church didn’t have the answers … which one did ? So, I slowly slid from grace, slowly gave up on the body of believers concept, and adopted a OSAS default position … that covered me and ever eventuality. Before long, I never even cracked the Bible … and my checklist forgotten.

When I was at long last recovered via the Catholic Church … I realized it alone has the answers to understanding of scriptures. And, it had the history to back it up as the legitimate Church. It’s the Hospital for the Christian, both able to restore us to good spiritual and physical health … and able to keep us healthy and able to persevere. It teaches us it’s now longer just ‘me & Jesus’, but ‘we & Jesus’. Its all about FAMILY, a holy family, a Church Militant & Triumphant. And, it has the complete and correct ‘checklist’ … to measure our salvation status.

 

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[brb3]

Alvin 31 …

You typify the Faux Believer ! … a purveyor of false checklists

 

[Miriam1947]

brb3, I think we agree with much. But OSAS - that is Scriptural too.

Jesus, The Good Shepherd, has His sheep and they will never, not now or at any future time, perish. (John 10:27-28)

brb3, it is not difficult. Eternal life actually MEANS eternal life.

(I just did this from memory without checking, so if I gave an improper reference … oops!)

In Christ, OldProf

John 10:27-28
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus says no one will snatch them out of his hand. But we have free will, we can choose to leave. And therefore reject the eternal life that He offers.

 

[stewstew03]

…
True Christians will love Jesus and good works will flow from their faith.
…

What is “true Christianity”?

.

 

[OldProf]

Old Prof … I like your check list, but let me suggest it is lacking.

I too had my check list of Cafeteria Protestant favorite Bible verses. And, they were insufficient to spare me from "falling from grace’. I found myself focusing on my checklist scriptures, at the exclusion of others in scripture that didn’t fit/agree with my list.

For example, I see you love and use alot of John’s writings in your list. But, as I said earlier … you must use them all, not only his 3 shorter books, but the longer Gospel. You need Chps. 6 and 15 ! Actually, we must use the entire Bible, both OT and NT. All of it must be on our checklist. Our Soteriology/Christology list … must include all of scripture.

Now, this is a very tough proposition for Protestants. I could not make them all fit, and give me a single, consistent message. So, like Luther, I would ignore those that I didn’t like. And, no one else in my Protestant Church could either. So much of scripture was a mystery to us. And, after awhile the Church kinda seemed unnecessary, unhelpful, non-essential. Everyman a king, everyman God’s temple, … why bother with Church at all ?

But, in very short order, 4-5 years, I transitioned away from the Protestant church … and could support my decision from my checklist scriptures. Afterall, if my church didn’t have the answers … which one did ? So, I slowly slid from grace, slowly gave up on the body of believers concept, and adopted a OSAS default position … that covered me and ever eventuality. Before long, I never even cracked the Bible … and my checklist forgotten.

When I was at long last recovered via the Catholic Church … I realized it alone has the answers to understanding of scriptures. And, it had the history to back it up as the legitimate Church. It’s the Hospital for the Christian, both able to restore us to good spiritual and physical health … and able to keep us healthy and able to persevere. It teaches us it’s now longer just ‘me & Jesus’, but ‘we & Jesus’. Its all about FAMILY, a holy family, a Church Militant & Triumphant. And, it has the complete and correct ‘checklist’ … to measure our salvation status.

brb3, I believe you underestimate these evidence lists. I have had the opportunity to see people illuminated by them as we go through the Scriptures that deal with self examination.

Regards, OldProf

Since we are coming up on that #1000 postings barrier, I’ll make the most of it by answering a few other short comments.

**Miriam1947 #971. John 10:27-28
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.

Jesus says no one will snatch them out of his hand. But we have free will, we can choose to leave. And therefore reject the eternal life that He offers.**

This is a common CA response. “But we have free will, we can choose to leave. And therefore reject the eternal life that He offers,” is not found here at all. First, you have to find a new definition of eternal life, because those perishing in hell do not have eternal life. Jesus here says He gives His sheep what? Eternal life. That means His sheep have eternal life, does it not, or should we correct Jesus to clarify - “Jesus, you should have said, ‘I give them the possibility of eternal life.’”?

Second Jesus says “they will never perish.” If you are familiar with exegesis, then look at the exegesis of “never” in Jesus’ statement. It is basically “not now or at any future time”. That is a strong “never.” So, expanded out, John 10:27-28 (Jesus speaking) says, “My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never, not now or at any future time, perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand.”

This makes sense in terms of Jesus actually doing the will of the Father. Jesus, in the synagogue at Capernaem speaking to unbelieving Jews, says, “37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. … 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.” (John 6:37-40, 44-47)

The testimony of Scripture is that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, proves He is the Good Shepherd because He doesn’t lose ANY of the Sheep given to Him by the Father.

Regards, OldProf

stewstew03 #972. What is “true Christianity”?

I can answer, but it is too broad a topic, and not to be answered under the Assurance of Salvation thread. Sorry. Do you have an exegesis of John 10:27-28 that demonstrates that the sheep may possibly perish?

Regards, OldProf

 

[paul_c]

paul c #959. "But at I was trying to point out to you is that this list doesn’t mention Jesus once. Isn’t it through Jesus that we are saved? Isn’t He the gate? You are missing the sacraments and doing Jesus’s will. Those are fundamental to entering heaven."

its not the verses that I have a problem with, its your interpretation of them that is problematic. Yes, We need to have faith to go to heaven. But we also need to eat Jesus’ body and drink His blood. You ignore those passages. You also need to follow the commandments and do God’s will. You ignore those passages as well. You need to persevere in the faith. Again, you ignore those passages. What do you gain by doing this? Does it give you some sense of assurance? What good is that, if its false?

True Christians will love Jesus and good works will flow from their faith.

Yes, on this we agree. But you need to recognize that you have the free will to not do the good works and if you fail to do the good works, your faith is dead. (James 2:24). You are not guaranteed heaven based on faith alone, and certainly not a one time statement of faith.

It was true of the Old Testament Saints, and so it continued in the New Testament when we have now identified the Messiah (fulfilled prophecy) and know of His death and resurrection. Our works don’t save.

It is true that you can’t earn your way to heaven. But it equally true that if you don’t do works of mercy for your fellow man, you will be condemned (matthew 25: 31-46). You recognize this with your list, do you not? I think the issue is you think in Calvinistic terms where man has no free will in this matter, being either predestined to heaven or hell. In this, Calvin under estimated God (he is no tyrant) and man (he is not an automaton).

We know the thief on the cross next to Jesus would agree with that.

In Christ, OldProf

Did you know the thief had a name, St. Dismas? He asked for forgiveness and defended Christ on the cross, despite his agony. Many don’t do as much in a lifetime.