Assurance of Salvation (Part II)

[pocohombre]

And why not ?

Have their Pastors not done their homework on the roots of Christianity … and told their flocks the full truth. Have the Protestant Theology Colleges failed to provide Pastors the complete truth/education ?

Or is the Catholic Church’s fault ? Have we failed to evangelize as we should ? Have we failed to place a CCC in the hands of every Protestant ?

IMO … its both. But, the CC is recently working harder to remediate the information gap. Soon Protestants will no longer be able to say they haven’t heard the full truth.

See how it is easy to have different interpretations for the same written word? I like your thinking and understand where you are coming from, but I suspect you know that is not what I meant when I wrote what I wrote. We are not on CC boat cause we have done our homework and CC has certainly given it her best shot,all too fully…But that is not totally true.Protestants are not Protestants cause of scholarship.We are what we are because of God’s calling ,as may everyone be.

 

[paul_c]

See how it is easy to have different interpretations for the same written word? I like your thinking and understand where you are coming from, but I suspect you know that is not what I meant when I wrote what I wrote.

I find this extremely ironic because this is the argument we use against sola scriptura. As you point out, you can easily have different interpretations for the same written word. That’s why you need Catholic tradition as the linkage to the original authors to know what they really meant.

We are not on CC boat cause we have done our homework and CC has certainly given it her best shot,all too fully…But that is not totally true.Protestants are not Protestants cause of scholarship.We are what we are because of God’s calling ,as may everyone be.

This implies that you think all faiths (or at least some faiths) are equivalent since you seem to be saying that God calls people to different traditions. I find this problematic because there can be only one truth. We know Jesus set up his church under St. Peter and the Apostles. 1500 years later, some men had a different idea of what were the eternal truths and how to do things so they started alternative churches. Only one of these teaches all the truths. Why wouldn’t it be the original one. What did men like Luther and Calvin have to demonstrate their views were the correct ones. Did they do great works like the Apostles? I think not.

 

[brb3]

See how it is easy to have different interpretations for the same written word? I like your thinking and understand where you are coming from, but I suspect you know that is not what I meant when I wrote what I wrote. We are not on CC boat cause we have done our homework and CC has certainly given it her best shot,all too fully…But that is not totally true.Protestants are not Protestants cause of scholarship.We are what we are because of God’s calling ,as may everyone be.

Poco …

Life is a Drama, lived out in various Acts & Scenes. Because I was born in Protestantism, doesn’t define my later life & ending. Look at Cornelius & Family. An unchurched Gentile, who needed more light …which Cornelius responded to, and he & family came into the Universal (Catholic) Church.

I started out Protestant - Baptized Baptist, later received HS via Sinner’s Prayer at Hand’s of Pentecostal Elders, then went Prodigal for several decades, finally recovered via Universal Catholic Church !!
Who would of predicted it ? Certainly not I !! But, God is amazing, and never gives up on us, never stops the Drama on a lost sheep …until we fail to cooperate with mercy offered us.

If someone really desires to find the Truth,… their birth circumstance won’t stop the Drama prematurely. Neither will education or lack of. A truth seeker will always get a fair shake & be judged according to the light & talents received.

 

[Porknpie]

I find this extremely ironic …

This implies that you think all faiths (or at least some faiths) are equivalent since you seem to be saying that God calls people to different traditions. I find this problematic because there can be only one truth. We know Jesus set up his church under St. Peter and the Apostles. 1500 years later, some men had a different idea of what were the eternal truths and how to do things so they started alternative churches. Only one of these teaches all the truths. Why wouldn’t it be the original one. What did men like Luther and Calvin have to demonstrate their views were the correct ones. Did they do great works like the Apostles? I think not.

Paul,

What is ironic is that Poco implicitly believes that the Catholic Church was infallible when selecting the biblical canon, choosing 73 books out of several hundred that were inspired and inerrant. Yet, the Catholic Church is seen in error on faith and morals.

If one believes that the Catholic Church is in error on faith and morals, then one can not trust the bible they are reading is inspired and inerrant.

Very Ironic.



(footnotes:

a) I know Poco’s bible has 66 books…7 removed by a printing press…some 1,300+ years after the Church decided on the 73 books in 400 ad.

b) The bible was written by, for and about the Catholic Church…for instruction yes, but also used to have a universal set of readings to be used at Mass )

 

[pocohombre]

I find this extremely ironic because this is the argument we use against sola scriptura. As you point out, you can easily have different interpretations for the same written word. That’s why you need Catholic tradition as the linkage to the original authors to know what they really meant.

This implies that you think all faiths (or at least some faiths) are equivalent since you seem to be saying that God calls people to different traditions. I find this problematic because there can be only one truth. We know Jesus set up his church under St. Peter and the Apostles. 1500 years later, some men had a different idea of what were the eternal truths and how to do things so they started alternative churches. Only one of these teaches all the truths. Why wouldn’t it be the original one. What did men like Luther and Calvin have to demonstrate their views were the correct ones. Did they do great works like the Apostles? I think not.

Possibly nonsensical about great works of apostles and judging from that. Let us look at today and see what God is doing within the Body.Where are His great works? Where is grace flowing? Where are fruits of the spirit being manifested? What begins in spirit will it end up in the spirit? What have you done for me lately? Once right always right(2000 years is a looooong time)? Can one, even a church rest on it’s laurels?

 

[OldProf]

its not the verses that I have a problem with, its your interpretation of them that is problematic. Yes, We need to have faith to go to heaven. But we also need to eat Jesus’ body and drink His blood. You ignore those passages. You also need to follow the commandments and do God’s will. You ignore those passages as well. You need to persevere in the faith. Again, you ignore those passages. What do you gain by doing this? Does it give you some sense of assurance? What good is that, if its false?

paul c, I don’t ignore verses. The fact that you keep saying I do tells me something about your ability to discern truth. The elect believe in Jesus, therefore they have eternal life and will never perish, not now or at any future time. By believing, they are effectively eating the body of Christ and drinking the blood of Christ. Jesus always does the will of His Father, and that will is that the elect will be resurrected and spend eternity in heaven. Jesus paid the price for the sins of the elect. Those who are not of the elect will pay the price for their own sins.

"OldProf: True Christians will love Jesus and good works will flow from their faith."

Yes, on this we agree. But you need to recognize that you have the free will to not do the good works and if you fail to do the good works, your faith is dead. (James 2:24). You are not guaranteed heaven based on faith alone, and certainly not a one time statement of faith.

If you are a person who loves and believes in God, and you have “faith” in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and you work to the glory of God (Evidence List 2), it seems to me that you can have an assurance of eternal life. Think about it. Why does Paul write, “28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”? The elect are called according to his purpose, right?

"OldProf: It was true of the Old Testament Saints, and so it continued in the New Testament when we have now identified the Messiah (fulfilled prophecy) and know of His death and resurrection. Our works don’t save."

It is true that you can’t earn your way to heaven. But it equally true that if you don’t do works of mercy for your fellow man, you will be condemned (matthew 25: 31-46). You recognize this with your list, do you not? I think the issue is you think in Calvinistic terms where man has no free will in this matter, being either predestined to heaven or hell. In this, Calvin under estimated God (he is no tyrant) and man (he is not an automaton).

For one thing, I don’t trust your view of Calvinism. I’ve heard so many wrong definitions of it that I simply avoid it and speak from the Scriptures. What you just stated about Calvin is wrong. The elect of course have saving faith, and they have the mind of Christ, and they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The elect will do good works as opposed to the “good works” they thought they did as unregenerate slaves of sin. Isaiah and Paul speak of this.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:20-23)

We all agree that the elect will produce fruit.

"OldProf: We know the thief on the cross next to Jesus would agree with that."

Did you know the thief had a name, St. Dismas? He asked for forgiveness and defended Christ on the cross, despite his agony. Many don’t do as much in a lifetime.

Thank-you, I did not know that. Well, St. Dismas didn’t have much of an earthly existence of eternal life, did he, but he is enjoying it now! What saved Him? Faith!

In Christ, OldProf

 

[brb3]

Possibly nonsensical about great works of apostles and judging from that. Let us look at today and see what God is doing within the Body.Where are His great works? Where is grace flowing? Where are fruits of the spirit being manifested? What begins in spirit will it end up in the spirit? What have you done for me lately? Once right always right(2000 years is a looooong time)? Can one, even a church rest on it’s laurels?

So … are you therefore arguing that because the CC was temporarily experiencing abuses re: indulgences, in first half of 2nd Millennium,— that God approved of the Protestant Reformation, and still approves of the splintering of the One Church into 30,000 sub-divisions?

Do we reform from within … or break away and start from scratch, trying to re-invent the First Church ?

 

[pocohombre]

So … are you therefore arguing that because the CC was temporarily experiencing abuses re: indulgences, in first half of 2nd Millennium,— that God approved of the Protestant Reformation, and still approves of the splintering of the One Church into 30,000 sub-divisions?

Do we reform from within … or break away and start from scratch, trying to re-invent the First Church ?

He most definitely did approve of the protestant reformation .That was yesterday(500 yrs ago).Today is today. Same thing applies where any church/denomiantion can not rest on laurels,think she is unsinkable or once right always right. This is perseverance a universal challenge to the individual as well as any church/denomination. By the way I read, somewhere on CA it’s 40,000 and goooooing up every second. The body is still the body, whether under 1 magisterium or 7 or 8. The Jews were splintered also in the Lord’s day, Pharisees, Saducees etc. and yet they were still all Jews.

 

[Porknpie]

So … are you therefore arguing that because the CC was temporarily experiencing abuses re: indulgences, in first half of 2nd Millennium,— that God approved of the Protestant Reformation, and still approves of the splintering of the One Church into 30,000 sub-divisions?

Do we reform from within … or break away and start from scratch, trying to re-invent the First Church ?

BRB -

The question you are asking : did God approve a new Gospel that is not apostolic in origin that teaches Faith Alone and Bible Alone w/self interpretation of scripture?

Answer is no. Faith Alone, Bible Alone and self interpretation is a departure of the One Faith handed down from Christ to the Apostles and to their descendants. It separates Christians through baptism from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church established by Christ.

We can start by looking at the early Christians and their belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist as an example of the departure from the OHCAC. Is one to believe John Calvin in the 1,500’s OR St Ignatius in year 110 who followed St. John the Apostle who was taught by Christ himself?

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

And if you don’t have a Bishop, you are not full member of the OHCAC.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

The Church established by Christ is Catholic and ONE. And by the mid-2nd century at the latest, the word Catholic meant universal but also specifically spoke to the OHCAC established by Christ.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

 

[pablope]

He most definitely did approve of the protestant reformation .That was yesterday(500 yrs ago).

How do you know this Poco? Did God speak to you and said so?

Based on this passage, would you say God approves of disobedience and causing splits and divisions in the Body of Christ?:

1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

By the way I read, somewhere on CA it’s 40,000 and goooooing up every second. The body is still the body, whether under 1 magisterium or 7 or 8. The Jews were splintered also in the Lord’s day, Pharisees, Saducees etc. and yet they were still all Jews.

 

[brb3]

He most definitely di
d approve of the protestant reformation .That was yesterday(500 yrs ago).Today is today. Same thing applies where any church/denomiantion can not rest on laurels,think she is unsinkable or once right always right. This is perseverance a universal challenge to the individual as well as any church/denomination. By the way I read, somewhere on CA it’s 40,000 and goooooing up every second. The body is still the body, whether under 1 magisterium or 7 or 8. The Jews were splintered also in the Lord’s day, Pharisees, Saducees etc. and yet they were still all Jews.

Poco …

I think u need to seriously meditate and pray to the Lord on this answer. Firstly, it conflicts with Christ’s desire & testimony in scripture. Do u think some 1500 years later Jesus changed his mind ?
Was God ever happy when the Hebrews split up …disputing each other ? And, what was the strong desire of David for the Lord, that he accomplished ! Reunification of all Israel !!!

Now, if u are an informed Son of the Lord’s …wouldn’t we here at CAF expect you to demonstrate the fruit / desire of re-unification of all brothers/sisters In Christ ? Yes, we would …and its time u realize you are errant / lacking in the true spirit of brotherhood. What would Paul or John of said ? You intuitively know. They were always working to promote the ONE body unity of the Election. So much of Paul’s writings were directed towards restoration of Christian unity.

U can do this !! Meditate on Paul’s Epistles…and let the HS guide u. Be a peacemaker…not a schismatic.

 

[brb3]

OldProf;10670743v:

Well, St. Dismas didn’t have much of an earthly existence of eternal life, did he, but he is enjoying it now! What saved Him? Faith!

Old Prof …

St. Dismas’ conversion speaks more to ‘deathbed, last chance’ salvation …where we don’t get much opportunity to serve Christ.
Except for a single confessional-testimonial to another colleague in crime, he lacked opportunity to serve Christ in this world.

To use his example to support a premise that Post-Regeneration ‘gracious’ works are not needed / expected, is not gonna make ur case with Catholics.

Can u think of another person in scripture …to better support ur premise of FAITH ALONE SALVATION ?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Possibly nonsensical about great works of apostles and judging from that. Let us look at today and see what God is doing within the Body.Where are His great works? Where is grace flowing? Where are fruits of the spirit being manifested? What begins in spirit will it end up in the spirit? What have you done for me lately? Once right always right(2000 years is a looooong time)? Can one, even a church rest on it’s laurels?

Well, let’s see… the Church has missionaries all over the world, provides for the poor, gives instruction on the faith to its faithful spread throughout the world, says Liturgies that accomplish the exact same prayer and offering, operates schools, hospitals, and many charities, and provides spiritually as well as corporeally.

My friend, do not think the Church has been stagnant, simply because many lay Catholics have become secularized. The Church is the same as ever, despite the many lukewarm Catholics, and with the New Evangelization, hopefully this will change, as well.

 

[Porknpie]

Well, let’s see… the Church has missionaries all over the world, provides for the poor, gives instruction on the faith to its faithful spread throughout the world, says Liturgies that accomplish the exact same prayer and offering, operates schools, hospitals, and many charities, and provides spiritually as well as corporeally.

My friend, do not think the Church has been stagnant, simply because many lay Catholics have become secularized. The Church is the same as ever, despite the many lukewarm Catholics, and with the New Evangelization, hopefully this will change, as well.

Peace -

You are right on

The Catholic Church is the same as ever. We have the seven sacraments, instituted by Christ to give us grace needed for our salvation. These seven sacraments in the Church have existed since the apostolic age (I posted earlier today of how St. Ignatius of Antioch spoke of the Eucharist in 110 ad and how Justin Martyr speaks in the mid-early second century that “they have been taught” of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist).

The 7 Sacraments instituted by Christ and taught to the apostles:

• Baptism
• Confirmation
• Matrimony
• Reconciliation
• Annointing of the Sick
• Holy Orders
• Holy Communion

Why would anyone follow someone in the 16th Century or later that did not profess to what Christ established with his apostles & with his Church?



Or allow someone 1,400 years after the biblical canon was established … to take 7 books out of their bible…and thereby have an incomplete written Word of God?

 

[pablope]

Old Prof …

Originally Posted by OldProf;10670743v

Well, St. Dismas didn’t have much of an earthly existence of eternal life, did he, but he is enjoying it now! What saved Him? Faith!

?

40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”

Before he got saved…he accepted his fate, his being crucified…his suffering…and offered them as reparations for his sins…and only then was he saved.

catholic-forum.com/saints/stj18020.htm

Whether we will or not, we must suffer. There are some who suffer like the good thief, and others like the bad thief. They both suffered equally. But one knew how to make his sufferings meritorious, he accepted them in the spirit of reparation, and turning towards Jesus crucified, he received from His mouth these beautiful words: "This day thou shalt be with Me in Paradise. " The other, on the contrary, cried out, uttered imprecations and blasphemies, and expired in the most frightful despair. There are two ways of suffering – to suffer with love, and to suffer without love

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Peace -

You are right on

The Catholic Church is the same as ever. We have the seven sacraments, instituted by Christ to give us grace needed for our salvation. These seven sacraments in the Church have existed since the apostolic age (I posted earlier today of how St. Ignatius of Antioch spoke of the Eucharist in 110 ad and how Justin Martyr speaks in the mid-early second century that “they have been taught” of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist).

The 7 Sacraments instituted by Christ and taught to the apostles:

• Baptism
• Confirmation
• Matrimony
• Reconciliation
• Annointing of the Sick
• Holy Orders
• Holy Communion

Why would anyone follow someone in the 16th Century or later that did not profess to what Christ established with his apostles & with his Church?



Or allow someone 1,400 years after the biblical canon was established … to take 7 books out of their bible…and thereby have an incomplete written Word of God?

Indeed, the Church has faithfully handed down Christ’s Sacraments since the beginning. With only a brief reading of the Fathers, is it easy to see that the Sacraments were handed down from then till now. Even the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox have the Sacraments. They did not spring up overnight.

But as obvious as this is for most to see by reading these primary source documents, for others no amount of evidence shall suffice. I see now that some will always struggle ardently with the Truth, whether it is the words of the Fathers or the written Word of God, twisting and contorting until the words say what they want them to say. Ireneaus accused the gnostic heretics he opposed of twisting Scripture to uphold their doctrines, and indeed they did; he even gave an example of how easy it is, by twisting the words of the Odyssey to make it say something else. He, and the other bishops, declared their authority came from succession, as we do now.

But, though history may repeat itself, the Lord has revealed something to me through posting here: we can only do our best to present the Truth, in true Christian charity and with patience. The rest is up to the Lord. Only He may convert one’s heart. We must love our separated brethren and pray for them, and not be troubled by hateful words or accusations, because He is with us, always.

Praise be to Our Lord, Jesus Christ

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Give us this day our SUPERSUBSTANTIAL Bread.

If you are so invincibly ignorant that you can’t understand the SUBSTANCE of Christ’s Body and Blood then you might could be saved without partaking of them if you remained in that state of invicible ignorance until death and did all you knew how to to live according to the commands of Christ.

If you are able to understand the substances of Christ’s blood and Body and refuse to take them as the REALITY they are and reduce them to symbols unrepentantly until you die in mortal sin as judged by Christ then you will wind up in Hell!

Salvation is not an instantaneous forever branding until the end of time end of freedom of the will and robotization of the human spirit for a monstrous god who would construct such a fetish for his personal enjoyment.

That is of the devil.

God does not restrict the human will.

The continuing “I AM” God requires a continuing COOPERATING free will love of man for His Creator–an act that can not be done without His grace but yet involves COOPERATION by man. That is a profound mystery.

The Eucharist is a most profound and sublime mystery–it isn’t the perversion of crackers and grape juice where God isn’t even in the building–where the sacrifice of Christ isn’t a perpetual one beyond the limits of time–just reduced to remembering an event long ago.

What glory does that give to God? Even the Jewish passover brought to the present the crossing of the Red Sea much more present than a Protestant memorial meal.

Who would want such a fluff vacuous religion where God is reduced to something that man can put into a one track minded self made box–the kind that one can validate themselves and others that own such boxes with slaps on the back of “Blessed Assurance”(Ain’t we got out our salvation and our god in the Bag!)

To NOMINALIZE God as the Nominalist Protestants do is to de-God God!

Who would be behind such a thing?

The devil!

Jesus said He came that they would have life and have life abundantly. He also said if you didn’t “Eat his Body” and “Drink his Blood” then you “wouldn’t have life within you”!

The choice you have to make is will you be with those who QUIT following Jesus in John 6:66! It isn’t just a coincidence that they quit following Christ at that particular chapter and verse!

The real whores of Babylon are those who are the 666ers! The ones who the Body and Blood of Jesus are HARD SAYINGS and who don’t believe in the LITERAL words of Jesus as recorded in the Holy Bible even when Jesus reiterates his teaching about the Eucharist 3 times!

How many time would Jesus have to personally say AMEN for the CLOSED mind to open up to the truth of the Eucharist?

If you go back to the early days of Christianity you won’t find crackers and grape juice! If you go back there and tell Peter and the rest of the disciples that the Bread and Wine are only symbols they won’t serve the Eucharist to you!

And tell them that you don’t have to worry about salvation once you are saved and they’ll ask you what planet you came from!

“They have ears to hear and do not hear”. The Eucharist DENIERS ARE the John 6:66 deniers! Ask yourself: Do you really want to be in that group?

 

[Porknpie]

Indeed, the Church has faithfully handed down Christ’s Sacraments since the beginning. With only a brief reading of the Fathers, is it easy to see that the Sacraments were handed down from then till now. Even the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox have the Sacraments. They did not spring up overnight.

But as obvious as this is for most to see by reading these primary source documents, for others no amount of evidence shall suffice.

Peace,

All we can do is provide the evidence. Many are simply ignorant as they have not been taught the Truth. That’s what CAF provides. Those truly searching for the Truth in Christ will read, understand and find it. Others, stubborn like the Pharisees will not. We are to pray for them, that the Holy Spirit touch their hearts and soul.

More Evidence

Early Fathers of the Church on the Eucharist continued…so there we have St. Ignatius of Antioch speaking in 110ad, Justin Martyr speaking in the early to mid-second century and Clement of Alexandria speaking in 202 AD below, speaking so clearly of the Eucharist, giving Grace for sanctification of the soul (which is very important to Assurance of our Salvation).

“For the blood of the grape–that is, the Word–desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation. And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh. Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. **And the mixture of both–of the water and of the Word–is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul.” **Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2 (ante A.D. 202).

And Cyril of Jerusalem speaking of the blood of Christ … having “learned these things” …partaking in the spiritual and making thy soul shine (kind of important again to our salvation)

"Having learn these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, ‘strengthen thou thine heart,’ by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.”" Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:8 (c. A.D. 350)

So there’s a little TRADITION being passed on from Christ, to the Apostles and to their descendants.

• St Ignatius of Antioch
• Justin Martyr
• Clement of Alexandria
• Cyril of Jerusalem

And the bible…not yet in existence in 350 ad, has to be understood in light of the Church and the Tradition from which it came. There is nothing “symbolic” here on the meal Christ instituted as read in John 6: “Touto estin to soma mou.” (this is really my body and blood).

He gave us this Eucharistic meal for added grace, for assurance of our salvation. Why miss out by following a new gospel, invented by man 1,500 years later or more. Who do you want to follow? St. Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Clement and Cyril OR someone else not following the teachings Christ passed on to his Church? It should be a pretty easy choice.

:extrahappy:

(footnote: quotes above from scripturecatholic.com)

 

[OldProf]

Give us this day our SUPERSUBSTANTIAL Bread.

If you are so invincibly ignorant that you can’t understand the SUBSTANCE of Christ’s Body and Blood then you might could be saved without partaking of them if you remained in that state of invicible ignorance until death and did all you knew how to to live according to the commands of Christ.

If you are able to understand the substances of Christ’s blood and Body and refuse to take them as the REALITY they are and reduce them to symbols unrepentantly until you die in mortal sin as judged by Christ then you will wind up in Hell!

Salvation is not an instantaneous forever branding until the end of time end of freedom of the will and robotization of the human spirit for a monstrous god who would construct such a fetish for his personal enjoyment.

That is of the devil.

God does not restrict the human will.

The continuing “I AM” God requires a continuing COOPERATING free will love of man for His Creator–an act that can not be done without His grace but yet involves COOPERATION by man. That is a profound mystery.

The Eucharist is a most profound and sublime mystery–it isn’t the perversion of crackers and grape juice where God isn’t even in the building–where the sacrifice of Christ isn’t a perpetual one beyond the limits of time–just reduced to remembering an event long ago.

What glory does that give to God? Even the Jewish passover brought to the present the crossing of the Red Sea much more present than a Protestant memorial meal.

Who would want such a fluff vacuous religion where God is reduced to something that man can put into a one track minded self made box–the kind that one can validate themselves and others that own such boxes with slaps on the back of “Blessed Assurance”(Ain’t we got out our salvation and our god in the Bag!)

To NOMINALIZE God as the Nominalist Protestants do is to de-God God!

Who would be behind such a thing?

The devil!

Jesus said He came that they would have life and have life abundantly. He also said if you didn’t “Eat his Body” and “Drink his Blood” then you “wouldn’t have life within you”!

The choice you have to make is will you be with those who QUIT following Jesus in John 6:66! It isn’t just a coincidence that they quit following Christ at that particular chapter and verse!

The real whores of Babylon are those who are the 666ers! The ones who the Body and Blood of Jesus are HARD SAYINGS and who don’t believe in the LITERAL words of Jesus as recorded in the Holy Bible even when Jesus reiterates his teaching about the Eucharist 3 times!

How many time would Jesus have to personally say AMEN for the CLOSED mind to open up to the truth of the Eucharist?

If you go back to the early days of Christianity you won’t find crackers and grape juice! If you go back there and tell Peter and the rest of the disciples that the Bread and Wine are only symbols they won’t serve the Eucharist to you!

And tell them that you don’t have to worry about salvation once you are saved and they’ll ask you what planet you came from!

“They have ears to hear and do not hear”. The Eucharist DENIERS ARE the John 6:66 deniers! Ask yourself: Do you really want to be in that group?

Jerry Jet, what a RANT! What an OFF-TOPIC RANT!

Q1: How many of those listed in Hebrews 11 (the Heroes of Faith chapter) participated in the Eucharist?
Q2: When did John the Baptist participate in the Eucharist?
Q3: Why did John say he wrote the Gospel of John?

A1: NONE!
A2: NEVER! And John was a great man (Matt 11:11).
A3: 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30-31)

You provide a blanket insult to all Protestants who believe in Jesus Christ and claim Him as their Lord and Savior. You insult me, and I’m very active in the evangelism of atheists, where I demonstrate the reasonableness of believing in a God (intelligent designer), and where I point to the Bible as the true God’s revelation to man and to His Son, Jesus Christ, the Savior.

I think you are out of line with the Roman Catholic Church who are much more accepting of Protestants who believe in Jesus as I do.

Please keep on topic.

Regards, OldProf

 

[PRmerger]

Paul,

What is ironic is that Poco implicitly believes that the Catholic Church was infallible when selecting the biblical canon, choosing 73 books out of several hundred that were inspired and inerrant. Yet, the Catholic Church is seen in error on faith and morals.

Yes. It calls to mind a quote from apologist Mark Shea regarding Protestants who are recusant to the authority of the CC:
You have the mysterious conviction that you can attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – yet inexplicably seize our Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle.

Remember, folks, without the Catholic Church you would not know that, say, the Gospel of Mark is inspired. You quote from it only because the CC discerned for you that it was the Word of God.

There were over 400 ancient Christian texts that the Church, under the guidance of the HS, either accepted or rejected, in discerning the canon.