Assurance of Salvation

[jcrichton]

jcrichton, I know, I get this response every time. It is basic logic that if the Old Testament scriptures can make you wise unto salvation, then the combined OT and NT scriptures can also make you wise unto salvation. We have a much, much fuller understanding of salvation with the NT scriptures. And we also know that before the ink was dry on the letter written by Paul (and all other NT writers) that God certainly knew He had inspired them. That’s my thinking on it, and I cannot see any holes in that argument. We are not like Timothy who could talk with the Apostle Paul directly. But the NT we thankfully have. Paul did seem to really promote the scriptures, didn’t he.

I keep avoiding the “church” issues because this is the AoS thread, and the point is to discuss doctrine on AoS, of which the scriptures have a lot to say. 1 John alone provides a decent teaching on AoS. And OSAS or eternal security of the believer also relates to this topic, and my goal is to stay on topic.

Regards, OldProf

again… you fail to understand that St. Paul is speaking about the Old Testament Scriptures and the non-existing text of the Gospel which were Orally transmitted… and wether Orally or Written no Gospel or Epistle speaks of a guaranteed Salvation… though Old Testament, New Testament, and Oral Teaching (Tradition) speak of Eternal Salvation in Christ through His Instituted Church not through a clause appropriated by those who, as the Jehovah Witnesses, choose to ignore/irradicate every Scriptural passage that speaks against their theological understanding (they too base their theocracy on a “system” that their “scholars/theologeans” have manipulated, er, I mean, invented, er, I mean got from their god).

I doubt that you understand the definition of avoidance since you inject “Catholic” or some other term in your response to demonstrate your rejection of the Church, and by Church I mean Catholic!

…so who’s questioning God’s Inspiration… the only thing in question here is your interpretation of Scriptures and your avoidance of any passage that shines a light on no Divine osas system of Salvation.

…again… no problem with St. Paul and any of the other Apostles… it is you who keep inserting an argument against them and attempt to word it as though it is everyone other than you that is doing it!

…St. Paul had no problem warning the Believers that they must stay the course and not turn back to their old habits because if they did… well… you know… HELL!:

9 Do you not realise that people who do evil will never inherit the kingdom of God? Make no mistake – the sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, the self-indulgent, sodomites, 10 thieves, misers, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

15 If you go snapping at one another and tearing one another to pieces, take care: you will be eaten up by one another. 16 Instead, I tell you, be guided by the Spirit, and you will no longer yield to self-indulgence. 17 The desires of self-indulgence are always in opposition to the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are in opposition to self-indulgence: they are opposites, one against the other; that is how you are prevented from doing the things that you want to. 18 But when you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 When self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious: sexual vice, impurity, and sensuality, 20 the worship of false gods and sorcery; antagonisms and rivalry, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels, disagreements, 21 factions and malice, drunkenness, orgies and all such things. And about these, I tell you now as I have told you in the past, that people who behave in these ways will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:15-21)

…I think St. Paul did not get the guaranteed Salvation memo!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Some quotes with references for St Augustine:

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

If there is a RCC response to this article, please let me know. Augustine did significant systematic theology (what we would call it now) of freewill and grace. He would be called a monergist, and he had great influence (as I’m sure most of you know) through his writings well beyond his own death.

Regards, OldProf

…don’t really know what point you are trying to make… since I am a profound pedestrain you must do more than the ambiguous… are you making some statement about something similar to the Jehovah Witnesses’ claim that the Holy Trinity was an invention of some atheist?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Looks like you are in to simply throwing quotes around - and they don’t address the topic. Is this evasion by deluge?

The simply question which you still have yet to address is that none of us KNOW that we are number amongst the Elect - until we get there. I realize that Calvin did not think much of Free Will - but, surely you do. Look at how you have freely chosen not to address this issue…

No one is taking anything out of God’s Hands. But, none of us know if we will die in the state of grace - and there is where it all hinges. If we abuse our free will and turn away from God - we are no different then any of the characters that appear in Matthew 25. These are really sad cases - all had some kind of idea that they were saved - but, they dropped their efforts and cooperation with God’s Grace - and then the Bridegroom came and the door was locked! I think St. Paul was aware of this parable - and knew that if he stopped cooperating with God’s Grace he would become a castaway.

So, here is Calvin claiming he is saved and numbered amongst the Elect because he has denied the existence of his own Free Will and then says that the Grace of God is responsible for all. It is when we stop cooperating with God’s Grace that we fall from Grace - and, it is a long way down.

So, really, you will need to try again on this matter. None of these quotes places you (or your buddy, Calvin, for that matter) as assured of salvation. It places all of us in the position of recognizing our need for God and His Grace and our need to persevere until the end. There is no runner in any race that can sit down and watch the others go past him and claim he has won because he entered the race. It just does not work that way in this life or the next - we are expected to work as we follow Christ - but, we are not saved through our works - but that our works show our cooperation with God’s Grace.

Bottom line: there is no assurance as you are claiming.

God bless

(Continued)

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The reason these verses are so meaningful is, when you examine them in depth, and determine the context, and maybe even some Greek word studies, it seems clear that a person could never say, “God, look at the great decision I made to follow Jesus.” No, all the credit and all the glory is to God and God alone. Truly we can agree that God is the Author and Finisher or our faith (Heb 12:2).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

St. Augustine was a prolific writer. In reviewing the link you provided there seems to be the assumption that the Doctor of Grace was somehow in favor of what Calvin would later come up with. This is not the case.

Here is a link you may find helpful to get the full view of St. Augustine, rather then the partial view presented in that link. You asked for a Catholic response - here it is - ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

God bless

Some quotes with references for St Augustine:

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/augustinenewlife.html

If there is a RCC response to this article, please let me know. Augustine did significant systematic theology (what we would call it now) of freewill and grace. He would be called a monergist, and he had great influence (as I’m sure most of you know) through his writings well beyond his own death.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

St. Augustine was a prolific writer. In reviewing the link you provided there seems to be the assumption that the Doctor of Grace was somehow in favor of what Calvin would later come up with. This is not the case.

Here is a link you may find helpful to get the full view of St. Augustine, rather then the partial view presented in that link. You asked for a Catholic response - here it is - ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

God bless

Thank-you for the article, Tom. I was reading several other articles this weekend on Augustine and I now have to amend my previous statement that he would be called a “monergist.” The article you sent further confirms it. Sometimes he sounds like a monergist, and his freewill theology of the “natural man” prior to grace is monergistic and provides a reasonable exegesis of Paul in Romans 3 (none righteous, no good works - the idea that the natural man has the freewill only to choose which sins to pursue). But then he becomes synergistic in the understanding of the believer who is elect and has received grace - he would disagree with Jesus and say that a sheep can perish if, in their freewill, the sheep chooses unrighteousness or to leave the faith. Jerome was the Greek expert, so Augustine probably did not see the strength, in Greek, of Jesus’ statement that His sheep “never” perish.

Think about this sheep that Jesus knows which is then lost and goes to hell.

Augustine would say God is the Author of (this sheeps’) faith, but the sheep is the finisher. He would have to say that once God begins a good work in that sheep, since the sheep was ultimately lost, then God did not complete this good work. Etc. It is clear to me the problem this has with many of the verses I quoted that are monergistic.

So, I guess he is more of a synergist. His writings, however, did have considerable impact on Luther and Calvin and other reformers who cared a great deal about accurate exegesis.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

You are more then welcome. St. Augustine must have always had a pen in his hand - he wrote a lot and many of his writings require time and effort to grasp. Now, I must confess you caused a bit grin to come over my face… I enlarged the section.

I admit, it is easier to say that St. Augustine got it wrong, contradicted Jesus - and we are fortunate we had Calvin to set the ‘Doctor of Grace’ straight! But, wait - let’s look at from a different perspective - and that being:

1- we really do have Free Will and can honestly choose to turn our back on God
2- St. Augustine was really correct - he understood all that Jesus said - believed it and explained it to others.
3- Calvin really got it wrong - very wrong - but, he still freely chose to spread his teaching - using his Free Will.

We really do need to be clear about this. God really does know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell - and he has known this from all eternity. Just like He knew which angels would worship God and which would honor Lucifer - before creating them. The issue is not God’s knowedge of all things - it is the presumption that we know His Final Will for us. We are required to persevere to the end (continue to cooperate with God’s Grace) if we are to be saved (Matt 24).

Please believe me what I say I will try and provide you whatever you need - I just won’t provide a ‘Yes’ when I see a mistake. And I do see a big one in the denial of our Free Will and in thinking we can say, “Lord, Lord!” and be saved (Matt 25).

By the way, I do not think you have any evidence that St. Jerome - Greek Scholar that he was - denied that we have Free Will. If you think he did - please send me the link - in Engish - I can not read Greek.

You will note that somehow - through it all - again - you managed to not answer the question I have asked - repeatedly. And, as you have probably guessed, I am not giving up! So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven - when we have Hope that this will come to pass - not knowledge or any kind of assurance.

God bless

Thank-you for the article, Tom. I was reading several other articles this weekend on Augustine and I now have to amend my previous statement that he would be called a “monergist.” The article you sent further confirms it. Sometimes he sounds like a monergist, and his freewill theology of the “natural man” prior to grace is monergistic and provides a reasonable exegesis of Paul in Romans 3 (none righteous, no good works - the idea that the natural man has the freewill only to choose which sins to pursue). But then he becomes synergistic in the understanding of the believer who is elect and has received grace - he would disagree with Jesus and say that a sheep can perish if, in their freewill, the sheep chooses unrighteousness or to leave the faith. Jerome was the Greek expert, so Augustine probably did not see the strength, in Greek, of Jesus’ statement that His sheep “never” perish.

Think about this sheep that Jesus knows which is then lost and goes to hell.

Augustine would say God is the Author of (this sheeps’) faith, but the sheep is the finisher. He would have to say that once God begins a good work in that sheep, since the sheep was ultimately lost, then God did not complete this good work. Etc. It is clear to me the problem this has with many of the verses I quoted that are monergistic.

So, I guess he is more of a synergist. His writings, however, did have considerable impact on Luther and Calvin and other reformers who cared a great deal about accurate exegesis.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

You are more then welcome. St. Augustine must have always had a pen in his hand - he wrote a lot and many of his writings require time and effort to grasp. Now, I must confess you caused a bit grin to come over my face… I enlarged the section.

We agree, so far - I noticed the glimmer of emphasis in your quote!

I admit, it is easier to say that St. Augustine got it wrong, contradicted Jesus - and we are fortunate we had Calvin to set the ‘Doctor of Grace’ straight! But, wait - let’s look at from a different perspective - and that being:

1- we really do have Free Will and can honestly choose to turn our back on God
2- St. Augustine was really correct - he understood all that Jesus said - believed it and explained it to others.
3- Calvin really got it wrong - very wrong - but, he still freely chose to spread his teaching - using his Free Will.

1. Free Will. The natural man can only choose to sin. Isn’t that what Romans 3 teaches? Does he have ANY ability to choose any good or righteous thought or thing? But what happens when, with God’s grace, the natural man receives the free gift of eternal life, at which point he becomes a sheep of Jesus? He was dead (Eph 2:1) but is born of God (John 1:13) and receives the gift of faith (Eph 2:8). No how will his Free Will be impacted now that he is a child of God?
2. St. Augustine, a real student of the Word and theologian par excellence from 390 AD to his death, is probably in heaven. Do you really think Jesus hasn’t enlightened him on some of his teachings that could have been improved or were wrong? Jesus said His sheep will never perish, not now or at any future time (John 10:28), did he not? That is what the Greek brings out. Jesus said He would lose NONE of His sheep and would raise them up on the last day (John 6:37-40) because that is the will of His Father. Jesus does His Father’s will, does He not?
3. Calvin was a very good systematic theologian in the mid-1500’s. But it is the 21st century now, and the scholarship is better, building on the backs of theologians like Calvin, and the systematic theology even tighter.

More to come tonight. I have to get back work.

Tom, I most enjoy your posts and your challenges. I am trying hard to show you my thought processes.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Let me see if I have this straight. You are saying (backed up with some selected quotes) that as a ‘Natural Man’ it is not possible to choose Divine Good or to be Rightous in the Eyes of God. And, you know what, I really do agree with you! We can do nothing without the Grace of God. Ah, but there is more to this story…

Baptism makes us a child of God (ah…as a brief side-bar… one of the few things I admire about Calvin is that he never repudiated the Catholic Baptism he received as an infant!) and heir to heaven! Here is a link you may enjoy: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm But, despite these wonderful gifts - we have a wounded human nature (Calvin really got carried away on this point!) with an inclination to choose poorly and sin. Baptism did not remove our human natuere - and that is the essence of our discussion. Our will is free to change as long as we are alive. Death permenantly sets our will - and some really do choose Hell. Here is a link: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm (beginning at #1033).
ng
I honestly do not understand how you can deny Free Will in all things that humans do. You are free to chose if you will respond to a post or not. This is a morally neutral act - neither good or bad. It is our intent that sets the direction: we can post to bring enlightenment and charity, or we can post to sew discord and malice. So, we take a morally neutral act and freely chose to do good or to do evil. This is but one example of how our wills work - and they do this 24/7.

I can freely chose to accept God Grace (Judas did when he accepted Christ’s invitation to join the Apostles and to be made ‘treasurer’ [no scripture to support this…but, it must have happend in Chirst’s Presence and with His Permission] or to reject it (at the end of John 6 we are told that Judas and Devil joined forces against Jesus!) It would appear that Judas refused the Grace of God - but, this is just an appeaance - we really do not know. Now, it looks like Judas despaired - truly a sin against God - and chose to hang himself! And, that is just what it looks like he did - but, maybe at the last instant that he had life - he repented and turned back to God. We just do not know. Then again, maybe he didn’t - and continued in his downward spiral to the Devil!

It is precisely because we do not know the ultimate fate of our fellow sinners that we pray that they are being punished for their sins in a very temporal manner. Here is another link:
staugcatholic.org/articleSynd.asp?ArticleID=426.

Now I am guessing (I just can’t hold my breath too much longer now…:rolleyes!). but,
I think our church clearly wants us to pray for them! So, tell me, how have you determined that YOU have this assurance and OTHERS don’t

God bless

We agree, so far - I noticed the glimmer of emphasis in your quote!

1. Free Will. The natural man can only choose to sin. Isn’t that what Romans 3 teaches? Does he have ANY ability to choose any good or righteous thought or thing? But what happens when, with God’s grace, the natural man receives the free gift of eternal life, at which point he becomes a sheep of Jesus? He was dead (Eph 2:1) but is born of God (John 1:13) and receives the gift of faith (Eph 2:8). No how will his Free Will be impacted now that he is a child of God?
2. St. Augustine, a real student of the Word and theologian par excellence from 390 AD to his death, is probably in heaven. Do you really think Jesus hasn’t enlightened him on some of his teachings that could have been improved or were wrong? Jesus said His sheep will never perish, not now or at any future time (John 10:28), did he not? That is what the Greek brings out. Jesus said He would lose NONE of His sheep and would raise them up on the last day (John 6:37-40) because that is the will of His Father. Jesus does His Father’s will, does He not?
3. Calvin was a very good systematic theologian in the mid-1500’s. But it is the 21st century now, and the scholarship is better, building on the backs of theologians like Calvin, and the systematic theology even tighter.

More to come tonight. I have to get back work.

Tom, I most enjoy your posts and your challenges. I am trying hard to show you my thought processes.

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

We really do need to be clear about this. God really does know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell - and he has known this from all eternity. Just like He knew which angels would worship God and which would honor Lucifer - before creating them. The issue is not God’s knowedge of all things - it is the presumption that we know His Final Will for us. We are required to persevere to the end (continue to cooperate with God’s Grace) if we are to be saved (Matt 24).

Please believe me what I say I will try and provide you whatever you need - I just won’t provide a ‘Yes’ when I see a mistake. And I do see a big one in the denial of our Free Will and in thinking we can say, “Lord, Lord!” and be saved (Matt 25).

By the way, I do not think you have any evidence that St. Jerome - Greek Scholar that he was - denied that we have Free Will. If you think he did - please send me the link - in Engish - I can not read Greek.

We are in basic agreement in the first paragraph. You say PERSEVERENCE is a requirement, i.e. the Free Will idea that a true sheep, one of the elect of God, can actually choose not to persevere (aka mortal sin), is where I would quibble with you. I would say that perseverence is exactly what the elect DO. It is on my evidence list 2. This is why “God really does know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell - and he has known this from all eternity” as you say and we agree. The elect persevere. The elect abide in Christ. The elect love the Lord Jesus Christ and and keep His commandments. The elect have TRUE free will and can choose righteousness and sin.

The next paragraph is not correct, because I don’t think a profession of faith means a person is saved. Notice something. Matt 7:21-23 Jesus speaks of professing Christians who seem to have assurance that they are going to heaven, but they’re not (my evidence list 1). Jesus says he never knew them! Ouch! This is why we must examine ourselves. And there is this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19

This is the “Christian” that attends Church, may even be quite active for awhile, but then leaves the faith. They were, in fact, never a Christian at all. Profession is not possession. I gave the evidence lists because there are a lot of Scriptures to back them up. See below.

(Jerome - Free Will. I haven’t researched that, but he was not known to be nearly the theologian that Augustine was.)

You will note that somehow - through it all - again - you managed to not answer the question I have asked - repeatedly. And, as you have probably guessed, I am not giving up! So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven - when we have Hope that this will come to pass - not knowledge or any kind of assurance.

God bless

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Why am I one of the elect? Paul tells me I’m a new creation, and that has been my sure experience. My thinking changed so radically. My desire to know God and study the Bible has come alive - I never gave the Bible any time before 1993.

Why am I one of the elect? John says I can know that I have eternal life. I’ve studied the doctrine of salvation, and the evidence lists 1 and 2 have significant biblical texts to back them up. The elect have true free will (restored by God’s grace), and they are Children of God. I can see biblical support for punishment and loss of rewards, but not loss of salvation. I can agree with Paul when he writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6. I can have a real peace, as Paul writes, “And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7

Tom, can you agree with Paul?

Do you think that, after I have examined myself to the biblical standard to see that I am in the faith, I should question John and say, “Well, you say I can know, but I really can’t be sure because I haven’t persevered to the very end yet, so how can I really know?”

I would prefer not to question the Apostle John on this one. I’d rather enjoy the peace I have in Christ and share the gospel and earnestly contend for the faith (Jude 3).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[fhansen]

Thank-you for the article, Tom. I was reading several other articles this weekend on Augustine and I now have to amend my previous statement that he would be called a “monergist.” The article you sent further confirms it. Sometimes he sounds like a monergist, and his freewill theology of the “natural man” prior to grace is monergistic and provides a reasonable exegesis of Paul in Romans 3 (none righteous, no good works - the idea that the natural man has the freewill only to choose which sins to pursue). But then he becomes synergistic in the understanding of the believer who is elect and has received grace - he would disagree with Jesus and say that a sheep can perish if, in their freewill, the sheep chooses unrighteousness or to leave the faith. Jerome was the Greek expert, so Augustine probably did not see the strength, in Greek, of Jesus’ statement that His sheep “never” perish.

Think about this sheep that Jesus knows which is then lost and goes to hell.

Augustine would say God is the Author of (this sheeps’) faith, but the sheep is the finisher. He would have to say that once God begins a good work in that sheep, since the sheep was ultimately lost, then God did not complete this good work. Etc. It is clear to me the problem this has with many of the verses I quoted that are monergistic.

So, I guess he is more of a synergist. His writings, however, did have considerable impact on Luther and Calvin and other reformers who cared a great deal about accurate exegesis.

Regards, OldProf

Old Prof, you still aren’t quite understanding this. There *is *no truly accurate exegesis without prior or conjunctional knowledge of revelation. There is no avenue for perfect exegesis using the bible alone-which is why Luther and Calvin could disagree-or relying on any material/historical source for that matter.

Augustine understood the radical importance of grace in man’s salvation, which is why, when arguing against those who opposed the need for grace, he may sound like a monergist. But He also knew God’s will in the matter of man’s will-God’s desire that man play a role, to whatever degree that can be-in his own salvation, and that’s why Augustine will be understood to be a synergist. His overall understanding on most doctrinal matters was thoroughly Catholic, with very little exception. As with Scripture, the whole context of Augustine’s writings must be taken into account, and even then, as with Scripture, he can be misunderstood.

And, BTW, Paul is misunderstood for similar reasons when he pits grace against the law/works while taking a stand against legalism. Radical theologies producing false gospels result from not understanding Paul in the context of the faith delivered to the Church, by selective and wooden readings of Scripture. The will of man and the obedience/works of man are inseparably bound together, but there are many who believe that neither can play a role in man’s salvation -or else grace would be unnecessary. But the purpose of grace isn’t merely forgiveness coupled with God imputing righteousness/overriding man’s will. The purpose of grace is to *draw *man into ever-increasing righteousness, into ever increasing alignment with God’s will, into ever-increasing love for God and neighbor. God is after beings who freely choose Him and He’ll help us in that endeavor without forcing us, and this is why Augustine could say such things as:

**“He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.”

“The God who gave you free will does not violate it to save you”**

And you cannot take a line or two that Jesus spoke, out of the myriad of words that were written let alone the enormously larger number that went unwritten, and expect to know the faith from that alone. Scripture was simply not meant to be a catechism, nor was it ever meant to be understood apart from the understanding of the Church that produced it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

First, I think that Fhansen presented some really good ideas - and, I would recommend you look them over carefully.

Second, here is a link from no less a Catholic authority then St. Thomas Aquinas - agreeing with some of what you said… Take a moment and look at this: calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/st-thomas-aquinas-on-assurance-of-salvation/

It really isn’t a case of arguing with St. John - only in how you have made an interpretation of what he has said.

Let me know what you think of this link.

God bless

We are in basic agreement in the first paragraph. You say PERSEVERENCE is a requirement, i.e. the Free Will idea that a true sheep, one of the elect of God, can actually choose not to persevere (aka mortal sin), is where I would quibble with you. I would say that perseverence is exactly what the elect DO. It is on my evidence list 2. This is why “God really does know who is going to Heaven and who is going to Hell - and he has known this from all eternity” as you say and we agree. The elect persevere. The elect abide in Christ. The elect love the Lord Jesus Christ and and keep His commandments. The elect have TRUE free will and can choose righteousness and sin.

The next paragraph is not correct, because I don’t think a profession of faith means a person is saved. Notice something. Matt 7:21-23 Jesus speaks of professing Christians who seem to have assurance that they are going to heaven, but they’re not (my evidence list 1). Jesus says he never knew them! Ouch! This is why we must examine ourselves. And there is this:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:19

This is the “Christian” that attends Church, may even be quite active for awhile, but then leaves the faith. They were, in fact, never a Christian at all. Profession is not possession. I gave the evidence lists because there are a lot of Scriptures to back them up. See below.

(Jerome - Free Will. I haven’t researched that, but he was not known to be nearly the theologian that Augustine was.)

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Why am I one of the elect? Paul tells me I’m a new creation, and that has been my sure experience. My thinking changed so radically. My desire to know God and study the Bible has come alive - I never gave the Bible any time before 1993.

Why am I one of the elect? John says I can know that I have eternal life. I’ve studied the doctrine of salvation, and the evidence lists 1 and 2 have significant biblical texts to back them up. The elect have true free will (restored by God’s grace), and they are Children of God. I can see biblical support for punishment and loss of rewards, but not loss of salvation. I can agree with Paul when he writes, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Php 1:6. I can have a real peace, as Paul writes, “And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.” Php 4:7

Tom, can you agree with Paul?

Do you think that, after I have examined myself to the biblical standard to see that I am in the faith, I should question John and say, “Well, you say I can know, but I really can’t be sure because I haven’t persevered to the very end yet, so how can I really know?”

I would prefer not to question the Apostle John on this one. I’d rather enjoy the peace I have in Christ and share the gospel and earnestly contend for the faith (Jude 3).

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Tom, you said, “So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven”

I gave you an answer, and that answer is biblically based. (We agree that we can trust the Bible.) Did I answer your question?

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Of course! How silly of me to have missed it! Bibically based answers it - and that is the end of that. Thanks for that refreshing response…

And, by the same ‘Biblically Based’ token, that means that:

1- Baptism is necessary for salvation (John 3)
2- Christ founded His Church on Peter (Matthew 16)
3- If we are to have life we are to eat the Flesh of Jesus Christ (John 6)
4- Men have the delegated authority from God to forgive (or not forgive) sin)(John 20)
5- Apostolic succession began with the Apostles - Paul passing authority on to Timothy is just an example of how this was carried out in the Apostolic Age (1Tim 5)
6- Christ promised His Chruch would have all Truth (John 20)

I could go on … but… I guess you get my point. I will be happy to accept ‘assurance’ because it is ‘Biblically Based’ and you, being like minded, will accept the six items I listed above. I just don’t know how I could have been so silly as to miss this - and really, it has been there all the time.

So, just as soon as I hear your agreement on these - as I have told you about my agreement on ‘assurance’ - we will be on the same page!

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

God bless

Tom, you said, “So, please, explain why it is you think that you are one of the Sheep, one of the Elect and one who is ‘Assured’ of being in Heaven”

I gave you an answer, and that answer is biblically based. (We agree that we can trust the Bible.) Did I answer your question?

Regards, OldProf

 

[adrift]

Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God. It relates to our AoS subject in that we say it is a scriptural doctrine that a born again Christian cannot lose their salvation because God is not only the AUTHOR of our faith, He is also the FINISHER (or completer or perfector) of our faith.

In one sentence: God chooses the Elect and ultimately glorifies them, not losing any.

Your position if I understand you correctly is that you do nothing in response to God.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Refers not to the elect but to the Jews the first to be invited.

You quoted many scriptures. In almost every quote, it states that belief in Jesus is necessary. That is not doing anything. If I understand you, believing is not required because God has already chosen His elect and they are the lucky ones who go to heaven while the rest go to hell. Nothing of their own doing just the will of God.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then He will repay everyone according to his conduct.
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? 38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
James 2
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
These scriptures contradict your position.
Who are the elect?

Go back to your quotes. The elect are those who believes in Jesus and does His Father’s will. Jesus says in Matt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. That is who the elect are. They are not mindless figurines to be moved on cosmos board. They are the family of God who does His will.

 

[adrift]

I have a strong rebuttal to this, but I’m wondering. Is it Roman Catholic doctrine that Judas was a believer, a sheep of Jesus (John 10), a sheep with eternal life, a sheep that will never at this time or at any future time perish (John 10:28 word study on “never”), and then Judas betrays Jesus, dies, and goes to hell (he perishes)?

Regards, OldProf

If you have already given your rebuttal, could you tell me the post number. Your question was answered but I have never seen your rebuttal. It would be easy to loose your answer in this thread so please tell me where to find your answer.

 

[OldProf]

Hi, OldProf,

Of course! How silly of me to have missed it! Bibically based answers it - and that is the end of that. Thanks for that refreshing response…

And, by the same ‘Biblically Based’ token, that means that:

1- Baptism is necessary for salvation (John 3)
2- Christ founded His Church on Peter (Matthew 16)
3- If we are to have life we are to eat the Flesh of Jesus Christ (John 6)
4- Men have the delegated authority from God to forgive (or not forgive) sin)(John 20)
5- Apostolic succession began with the Apostles - Paul passing authority on to Timothy is just an example of how this was carried out in the Apostolic Age (1Tim 5)
6- Christ promised His Chruch would have all Truth (John 20)

I could go on … but… I guess you get my point. I will be happy to accept ‘assurance’ because it is ‘Biblically Based’ and you, being like minded, will accept the six items I listed above. I just don’t know how I could have been so silly as to miss this - and really, it has been there all the time.

So, just as soon as I hear your agreement on these - as I have told you about my agreement on ‘assurance’ - we will be on the same page!

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

God bless

Hi Tom. So, this is your response? Seriously? If you tell me I’m wrong about AoS, and I say, “Here’s my argument.” And I spell it out, using the clear biblical texts which really do not require any interpretation, and then you give a non-response, I have a question. How will this avoidance on your part help me to see the errors of my ways?

Or, perhaps I have a strong argument for AoS, and maybe you didn’t realize it was THAT strong. So, what’s the verdict?

Do you see why someone can have assurance as long as they examine themselves to a biblical standard and take John at his word when he explicitly states, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)?

(I’ll forego addressing the other issues 1 thru 6 you bring up since, although interesting points of theology and interpretation, are off-topic.)

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

If you have already given your rebuttal, could you tell me the post number. Your question was answered but I have never seen your rebuttal. It would be easy to loose your answer in this thread so please tell me where to find your answer.

adrift, I don’t remember anyone showing me that the RCC declared Judas as a believer. My rebuttal would have the following Scriptures to indicate that Judas, and unbeliever, was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures that Jesus would be betrayed. Here are the verses:

John 13:18-30; John 6:64,70-71; Matt 17:22-23; Matt 20:17-19; Acts 1:16

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

adrift, I would recommend this online sermon about Judas.

gty.org/resources/sermons/41-76/judass-betrayal

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Monergism is the idea that only God gets the glory for individual salvation. It is not a synergistic or cooperative act between man and God. It relates to our AoS subject in that we say it is a scriptural doctrine that a born again Christian cannot lose their salvation because God is not only the AUTHOR of our faith, He is also the FINISHER (or completer or perfector) of our faith.

In one sentence: God chooses the Elect and ultimately glorifies them, not losing any.

Your position if I understand you correctly is that you do nothing in response to God.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Refers not to the elect but to the Jews the first to be invited.

You quoted many scriptures. In almost every quote, it states that belief in Jesus is necessary. That is not doing anything. If I understand you, believing is not required because God has already chosen His elect and they are the lucky ones who go to heaven while the rest go to hell. Nothing of their own doing just the will of God.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then He will repay everyone according to his conduct.
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? 38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
James 2
24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
These scriptures contradict your position.
Who are the elect?

Go back to your quotes. The elect are those who believes in Jesus and does His Father’s will. Jesus says in Matt 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother. That is who the elect are. They are not mindless figurines to be moved on cosmos board. They are the family of God who does His will.

No, my position is that the Elect will believe, persevere, and bear fruit. They are heaven bound. I gave the evidence lists to indicate my position.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Two more in-depth sermons on Judas.

gty.org/resources/sermons/42-81/common-men-uncommon-calling-judas-iscariot-part-1

gty.org/resources/sermons/42-82/common-men-uncommon-calling-judas-iscariot-part-2

Regards, OldProf