Assurance of Salvation

[jcrichton]

Hi, Angel,

Thank you.

Just reading over the posts that promote ‘AoS’ has given me a special type of sadness - one where the Word of God is just stood on its head so that it means whatever anyone wants it to mean.

Luther and Calvin may have started this process - but by now the number of people who believe they can explain God’s Word is legion. You know… 100 years ago - virtually every church in the US condemned abortion, euthansia, homosexual behavior and contraception. They undoubtedly would have condemned embronic stem cell research, in vitro fertilization, and surrogate motherhood - but, such technological advances that thwart God’s Will had not yet been introduced. Today - according to some - the Word of God now allows for such abominations! And these same individuals and the ‘churches’ they represent are quick to point out that God’s Word is infallible and immutable. Imaging!

‘AoS’ is 500 years old and it still can hold a number of folks in its grip. Here we have new forms of the same old and most original act of defiance - when Satan said he would not serve! Candidly, it may be good for those who embrace these new beliefs to at least at their author.

God bless

Hi, Tom… I was thinking about that exact problem… it seems that Protestants are not only selective when it comes to Scriptures but also quite selective in what they adopt as their own… take the argument on this thread… the fact that there are over 30,000 denomenational groups, all claiming to have the Guidance of the Holy Spirit and being Christ’s reps, does not phase them in the least; they do not accept that it is through exercising their “free will” that they have decided to reject Catholic theology and Catholic Teaching in preference of a theology and teaching based on… what?.. what?.. denominatinal traditions–traditions that have evolved contrary to even their founder’s original religious propositions (Luther, Calvin, etc.) and which continue to yield to social pressures (embracing divorce, contraception, abortion, homosexuality…) to the point of circumvention or outright rejection of Sacred Scriptures…

…thank God that some, as the Anglicans, have began to migrate back to the Fullness of the Body of Christ… still that is no grounds for boasting as we have also experienced almost a simulataneous erosion of Catholics (from laity to religious and clerics) who have become so enamoured with society that they proudly pronounce their rebellion against Church’s Authority claiming to be responding to their “conscience” or a “call” for social justice… (I wonder, do Satan crank up more points when Catholics leave the Church or when they obstinately refuse to leave while professing anti-Doctrinal teachings in the name of God?)

…one thing is quite clear, either we are for Christ or He will spit us out for our lukewarmness!

…I pray and ask that we all pray for these poor souls that are adrift and, as misery, do not want to go down by themselves… they know that their fate has been foretold… yet it seems that friendship with the world trumps obedience to God:

Adulterers! Do you not realise that love for the world is hatred for God? Anyone who chooses the world for a friend is constituted an enemy of God. (St. James 4:4)

Only a few of you, my brothers, should be teachers, bearing in mind that we shall receive a stricter judgement. (St. James 3:1)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[guanophore]

. take the argument on this thread… the fact that there are over 30,000 denomenational groups, all claiming to have the Guidance of the Holy Spirit and being Christ’s reps, does not phase them in the least

I think for many it really does “phase them”. I know it eventually did me, when I was out. I read two threads today of folks that left the Church. One returned precisely because of what you have noted here - could not stand the lack of consistency. The other is clearly drawn to the stability of Catholicism.

they do not accept that it is through exercising their “free will” that they have decided to reject Catholic theology and Catholic Teaching in preference of a theology and teaching based on… what?.. what?.. denominatinal traditions–traditions that have evolved contrary to even their founder’s original religious propositions (Luther, Calvin, etc.) and which continue to yield to social pressures (embracing divorce, contraception, abortion, homosexuality…) to the point of circumvention or outright rejection of Sacred Scriptures…

Much of this happens in ignorance. That sure was the case for me. I left a faith I had never studied or understood. My childhood catechism was insufficient, but I did not know how to grow in my faith. I was easy prey for "bible Christians, because I was hungry for Scripture,but had never been taught to read and pray the bible.

we have also experienced almost a simulataneous erosion of Catholics (from laity to religious and clerics) who have become so enamoured with society that they proudly pronounce their rebellion against Church’s Authority claiming to be responding to their “conscience” or a “call” for social justice… (I wonder, do Satan crank up more points when Catholics leave the Church or when they obstinately refuse to leave while professing anti-Doctrinal teachings in the name of God?)

Yes, I think these people have become Protestants, but they don’t realize it.

Especially in America, there is a legacy of individualism and opposition to authority. It is part of our political inheritance. People really have a hard time accepting that Jesus’ Church is a theocracy, not a democracy.

…I pray and ask that we all pray for these poor souls that are adrift and, as misery, do not want to go down by themselves… they know that their fate has been foretold… yet it seems that friendship with the world trumps obedience to God:

Maran atha!

Angel

Amen.

 

[jcrichton]

I am noticing a trend reversal, though. Many of those staunch mainline Protestants have been able to see the fruit of Sola Scriptura, which is fragmentation and division, and are working to go back toward orthodoxy. Some Anglicans have refused to go town this road of developing liberalism and are reuniting with the Catholic Church. Even the Reformed splinter groups are meeting and trying to draft “agreements” on doctrine that they all hold. Let us lift our sadness as prayer to Jesus, as a share in His grief that we are not in conformity as One like He has desired. May we all be One, as He is in the Father!

…but that’s just it! Christ has never asked for our comformity! That’s where man-made adaptions go awry! He Commands that we be one in Him as He is One in the Father… this means not that we come together in comformity of each other’s differences and “rights;” it means that we emulate Christ through obedience to His Commandments: Be one; Love one another; Obey My Commandments! Unity of the Body of Christ can never mean general concensus of compiled credos, doctrines, belief systems, and human respect (tolerance)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think for many it really does “phase them”. I know it eventually did me, when I was out. I read two threads today of folks that left the Church. One returned precisely because of what you have noted here - could not stand the lack of consistency. The other is clearly drawn to the stability of Catholicism.

Much of this happens in ignorance. That sure was the case for me. I left a faith I had never studied or understood. My childhood catechism was insufficient, but I did not know how to grow in my faith. I was easy prey for "bible Christians, because I was hungry for Scripture,but had never been taught to read and pray the bible.

Yes, I think these people have become Protestants, but they don’t realize it.

Especially in America, there is a legacy of individualism and opposition to authority. It is part of our political inheritance. People really have a hard time accepting that Jesus’ Church is a theocracy, not a democracy.

…I pray and ask that we all pray for these poor souls that are adrift and, as misery, do not want to go down by themselves… they know that their fate has been foretold… yet it seems that friendship with the world trumps obedience to God:

Maran atha!

Angel

Amen…guanophore… as I was reading I became teary eyed… I seldom stop to think about what has been lacking or the guidance that was instilled upon others… I was brought up by a militant Mom (Christ’s Legionaries, Franciscan, Mary’s Legionaries, Cursillista, Catechist, Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist, Lector…)–as a child, I had a Bible before many adults from our parish had theirs… so it is upon this foundation that I have built/struggled against… so I offer my apologies for generalizing about those who are Coming to the Body from a different perspective… I should add the phrase “it is my experience” to demonstrate that I hold a belief based upon the people that I have engaged and not that I speak for non-Catholic Christians…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

In general I do agree, that human efforts to do good and thereby justify ourselves before God come from personal pride. However, Scripture is clear that not all human efforts to do good emanate from such motives. You have yet to respond to this passage previously posted: Rom 2:13-16 …

Why would the Apostle suggest that such persons could be excused if it were not possible on the day of judgment?

You have to somehow dispatch or disregard this passage to uphold your theory.

(clip)

Are some unbelievers really excused - so we shouldn’t have to worry about the great commission (Matthew 28:18-20)?

Do I really have to “disregard this passage to uphold your theory”? No, not at all.

I guess you really want me to comment on this one, even though the subject is our AoS. So, let’s look at it, Romans 2:12-16.

Verse 12. “For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”

Yes, people sin and perish without the law (Gentiles, pagans, heathen) or with the law (Jews).

Verse 13. “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

True, if you can do what is required of the law, then you will indeed be justified. Who else besides Jesus could do that? Romans 1:17 thru 3:20 tells us that nobody can have that kind of righteousness, which is the righteousness of God.

What is the greatest commandment? Per Mark 12:29-31, "Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Did Jesus do this? Yes. Can anyone else do this as did Jesus? Can anyone else perfectly keep the 10 commandments without sin as did Jesus? Not that the Scriptures indicate. Clearly, per 1 John 1:8, “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

Verse 14. “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.”

We see in all civilized cultures laws against murder, and people know that lying is wrong, etc. Yet we still see murder and lying, etc., within these cultures.

Verses 15 and 16. “They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.”

Some atheists may act more “Christian” than Christians in their daily lives. Does this obscure reference actually mean that they or some other Gentile perfectly keeps the Law and therefore they are saved? No, of course not, and they even have “conflicting thoughts.” The sense of this is that they have a sense of the law through natural revelation and some keep their “personal law” better than do we who have the “real” law given by God. Is that enough to get them into the Kingdom? A basic rule of interpretation is that the unclear passages must be interpreted in the light of the clear passages.

We have plenty of Bible verses that indicate salvation and they mention eternal life or faith/belief. This whole section of Romans 1:17 thru 3:20 has the theme that all human beings are sinners. That is emphasized in Romans 3:21-31 which indicates we receive the righteousness of God thru faith.

Seriously READ Romans 3:21-31. Is it not obvious that “works” don’t work? There is no room for boasting in our works AT ALL. Consider these clear passages:

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Titus 3:5 “he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,”

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:18

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:29-31

If someone asks how to get to heaven, we tell them they need to believe in Jesus. The testimony of those in heaven will be that they believed in Jesus, don’t your think?

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

I think it is evident that OLD PROF is NOT interested in debating the facts objectively,
and is trying to convert people here. :banghead:

october baby, I’m quite confident the Bible teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of salvation (AoS). That is what I’m interested in debating here. I also have a passion for Bible study and a desire to know the truth. I have been completely up front about all of this on this thread.

If the Roman Catholic Church is correct that a Christian, one who is born again, one who is a sheep of Jesus, can, in fact, commit a mortal sin then die and go to hell, then I personally would like to know that. I’d also like to know how, Scripturally, to defend that. The Church I attend and the seminaries I respect and the book authors I respect would all be incorrect about their direct statements that the Bible teaches AoS and that mortal sin is a myth since ALL sins are mortal sins that lead to death. So, if it turns out the RCC position is true, I would have to leave the Church I attend and re-evaluate my faith.

I will give what I consider to be a strong biblical argument that AoS is true. If you as well as the folks at CA think this is unobjective, then let me know and I will leave this website convinced that CA cannot deal biblically with the AoS argument.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Just a short but meaningful comment. From the numerous posts that have been made on this thread and after carefully reading of your posts, it appears to me that you are really not interested in debating. What you apparently are interested in is simply restating your ideas and dismissing those that disagree with your position.

Now, if you sincerely seek instruction on how a soul can fail to persevere or stand firm to the end and be lost - check out Matthew 24. And, as if to put a genuinely fine focus on this point - just keep reading to Matthew 25. Here we have three stories from Christ on those who thought they were ‘saved’ but, wound up profoundly disappointed. But, please do not stop there - move on to Luke 8 and we have the parable of the farmer and the seeds that he planted. According to the story - all were good seeds - and all showed signs of life - yet, only those who cooperated with the God’s Grace (note how Christ explains the parable to the Apostles) bore fruit. Ah, but it goes on - now take a look at 1Cor 9 and see how St. Paul has a genuine cocern about being a castaway should he fail to continue to follow Christ. Yes, OldProf, it really is possible to use one’s free will and chose to turn away from God.

Simply stated, to deny free will is to deny responsibility for one’s actions. I can imagine a criminal defendant standing before a judge and claiming he is not guilty because he lacks free will. I can also imagine the judge accepting that plea (he has no choice) and then forwarding the accused for a psychiatric hearing. I understand that Calvin denied free will - so he had no responsibility to cooperate with the Grace of God. He claimed to be blessed with the ‘AoS’ so that ended that. Saved inspite of himself - relying totally on God to do everything while absolving Calvin and his followers of responsibility. Christ was clear in his various parables - we must cooperate with God’s Grace. Here is a visual - in Rev 3 we can see Christ standinng at door and knocking. Notice - Calvin would have Christ just walk in and grab the inhabitant by the collar and wisk him off to heaven. But, in Christ’s own words, we are required to respond (WORKS! ) to Christ’s invitation.

Now, I really do not know of a charitable way to invite you to either respond to the numerous challenges you have received or just move on to another group… so I won’t try. If you genuinely engage others there is a chance for dialogue - but, merely continuing to refuse to even acknowledge the arguments of others - or, to simply dismiss them - is not a debate. I am quite confident that there are Calvinist based groups that would whole-heartedly endorse the position you have maintained and the numerous scriptural verses you have attempted to bolster your argument with. Apparently, you have found some time from your schedule to come back. Now, would be a good time to catch up on the backlog of posts that have been patiently awaiting your response.

The posts that immediately preceeded yours were very instructive to me. Here we have people who - for whatever reason - found themselves outside the practice of Catholicism and looking from the outside in. They have interesting stories - but, the underlying assumption is that they had a heart that was open to God’s Grace and used their free will to accept that wonderful Gift and work with it. In my opinion, what makes this instructive is that people willing to engage the Word of God (and not some human interpretation that stands it on its head) can be changed by Grace of God.

Have a blessed Thanksgiving

october baby, I’m quite confident the Bible teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of salvation (AoS). That is what I’m interested in debating here. I also have a passion for Bible study and a desire to know the truth. I have been completely up front about all of this on this thread.

If the Roman Catholic Church is correct that a Christian, one who is born again, one who is a sheep of Jesus, can, in fact, commit a mortal sin then die and go to hell, then I personally would like to know that. I’d also like to know how, Scripturally, to defend that. The Church I attend and the seminaries I respect and the book authors I respect would all be incorrect about their direct statements that the Bible teaches AoS and that mortal sin is a myth since ALL sins are mortal sins that lead to death. So, if it turns out the RCC position is true, I would have to leave the Church I attend and re-evaluate my faith.

I will give what I consider to be a strong biblical argument that AoS is true. If you as well as the folks at CA think this is unobjective, then let me know and I will leave this website convinced that CA cannot deal biblically with the AoS argument.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

You and Guanophore have presented some truly excellent first-hand accounts of God’s Grace at work in the human heart.

God bless

…but that’s just it! Christ has never asked for our comformity! That’s where man-made adaptions go awry! He Commands that we be one in Him as He is One in the Father… this means not that we come together in comformity of each other’s differences and “rights;” it means that we emulate Christ through obedience to His Commandments: Be one; Love one another; Obey My Commandments! Unity of the Body of Christ can never mean general concensus of compiled credos, doctrines, belief systems, and human respect (tolerance)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

OldProf I searched the thread and did not find any references to Hebrews and the notion that a persons who can fall from grace. Has this passage already been covered, or is there no point covering it because you believe the passage does not apply to Christians?

Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. 7 Ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; its end is to be burned over.

I have been told by some systematic theologists that Hebrews is not addressed to Christians, and that since it applies to Jews only, modern/Gentile Christians are under a different covenant etc. etc.

Let’s look at Hebrews 6:4-8. Before I even start, note there is much written on this section of Scripture, so it will hardly do it justice in the short answer I will attempt below in this thread. It will touch on unpardonable sin such that it is “impossible” - the correct translation of this particular Greek word - for this person to return to the congregation in repentance. The idea that “tasting” may be likened to “sampling” - checking it out, so to speak.

We don’t know the writer of Hebrews, but we accept that this letter is inspired by God which implies Holy Spirit authorship. The audience is a group of Jewish Christians since Gentiles are not mentioned. When addressing a “congregation” of professing Christians, we realize that some in the group may not be true believers. It is useful to engage them and warn them of God’s righteous wrath.

Verses 4-6. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The sin of unbelief, that is, sustained unbelief, is the worst sin of all - the true unpardonable sin. Imagine some people within this congregation of believers that learn and understand, intellectually, the Gospel, who have participated in communion and tasted or sampled it all (the didn’t receive it, they only tasted or sampled it), who have seen the Holy Spirit at work within their fellowship, participated in the fellowship, and yet they have not truly believed in Jesus. For them who know that much truth yet reject Jesus Christ as Savior and leave, it is “impossible” that they could repent and believe. To them, no sacrifice could be adequate. (I think we could place Judas, whom we have discussed on this thread, into a similar group. Herod, per Mark 6:20, also comes to mind since he liked to listen to John the Baptist even though he feared him, but when pressed Herod rejected him and had him beheaded.)

This is a dire warning to Hebrew Christians in the congregation that may be considering leaving. If they leave, then they will remain in unbelief. No new birth. No real love for Jesus. Though they may look and talk like Christians and participate in all the rituals and events for now, but if they leave they won’t be restored to the fellowship - that would be “impossible.” They may fool people in the congregation, but they left because they were AND they remain spiritually dead. Without any Savior, they will receive the punishment for their own sins in hell for eternity.

This is completely consistent with 1 John 2:19 which says, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Verses 7 and 8. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

The Gospel is like rain that falls to the earth. The Christian, the elect, will hear it and bear fruit that brings glory to God since God has given His grace that resurrects the spiritually dead sinner with the new birth - born again with spiritual life. Not so for the unbeliever who, though a witness to Christianity, never embraces the Gospel and never believes in Jesus nor bears any real fruit (they may do “good works” with the motive a looking good in the eyes of their friends or family - but not for God’s glory). That unbeliever will endure the fires of hell forever.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Not too bad. Really.

For those who die unrepentant, in disbelief, and have freely turned away from Christ our Savior - then their only choice is to go where they want to go - Hell. And this is the responsibility we all have - to use our Free Will to chose to work with the Grace of God.

For someone to die in such a state and then be ‘forced into heaven’ to worship God - such a condition would be more painful then being in Hell!

God bless

The sin of unbelief, that is, sustained unbelief, is the worst sin of all - the true unpardonable sin. Imagine some people within this congregation of believers that learn and understand, intellectually, the Gospel, who have participated in communion and tasted or sampled it all (the didn’t receive it, they only tasted or sampled it), who have seen the Holy Spirit at work within their fellowship, participated in the fellowship, and yet they have not truly believed in Jesus. For them who know that much truth yet reject Jesus Christ as Savior and leave, it is “impossible” that they could repent and believe. To them, no sacrifice could be adequate. (I think we could place Judas, whom we have discussed on this thread, into a similar group. Herod, per Mark 6:20, also comes to mind since he liked to listen to John the Baptist even though he feared him, but when pressed Herod rejected him and had him beheaded.)

The Gospel is like rain that falls to the earth. The Christian, the elect, will hear it and bear fruit that brings glory to God since God has given His grace that resurrects the spiritually dead sinner with the new birth - born again with spiritual life. Not so for the unbeliever who, though a witness to Christianity, never embraces the Gospel and never believes in Jesus nor bears any real fruit (they may do “good works” with the motive a looking good in the eyes of their friends or family - but not for God’s glory). That unbeliever will endure the fires of hell forever.

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

october baby, I’m quite confident the Bible teaches that a Christian can have an assurance of salvation (AoS). That is what I’m interested in debating here. I also have a passion for Bible study and a desire to know the truth. I have been completely up front about all of this on this thread.

If the Roman Catholic Church is correct that a Christian, one who is born again, one who is a sheep of Jesus, can, in fact, commit a mortal sin then die and go to hell, then I personally would like to know that. I’d also like to know how, Scripturally, to defend that. The Church I attend and the seminaries I respect and the book authors I respect would all be incorrect about their direct statements that the Bible teaches AoS and that mortal sin is a myth since ALL sins are mortal sins that lead to death. So, if it turns out the RCC position is true, I would have to leave the Church I attend and re-evaluate my faith.

I will give what I consider to be a strong biblical argument that AoS is true. If you as well as the folks at CA think this is unobjective, then let me know and I will leave this website convinced that CA cannot deal biblically with the AoS argument.

Regards, OldProf

The problem remains… it is not Scriptures that gives you security of Salvation; it is Christ!

AoSs might be well-intended and Bible-read people but they based their belief on something not taught by the Apostles… when this is pointed out to you, and I guess the rest of the AoSs you simply chose to ignore it.

The Jehovah Witnesses are also a people that are Biblically centered (at least according to them) and they use not Scriptures but their interpretation of Scriptures to reject Christ’s Divinity, to claim that they are God’s visible church, and to reject the Catholic Church and paint her as the whore of Babylon… they claim complete ownership of Christ by claiming that they are the 144K that will see God and that the rest of the world, including their own members will not see God nor enjoy Heaven with Christ…

If you truly are seeking the Truth, please start by putting aside all that you have “learned” about Salvation and security through the appropriation of a few selective passages which are then intrepreted to mean what you (AoSs) want them to mean.

Here’s Christ’s take on assurance of Salvation:

3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. (St. John 15:3-6)

…clearly, unless you fault Jesus, this passage is not speaking to sinners, pagans, unbelievers or atheists! Jesus is speaking of and to the Believers: “you are clean,” “remain in Me,” “anyone who does not,” “is thrown away,” “and are burnt.”

My Salvation, as yours and that of the rest of manking, including AoSs, is Secured only in Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jcrichton,

There you go again … providing another sterling proof that ‘AoS’ is strictly a tradition of man - and OldProf has not really setteled in to respond to all the others! Truly an excellent point - and one I hope caught by all who read this post - but… I don’t know … he seemed overwhelmed before you posted. I don’t know … can one ‘drown’ in backloged e-mail - there is no life guard to save him … oh, I forgot … Well, so much for assurance - would that we had the assurance of a focused response!

May all on this thread have a most Blessed Thanksgiving

God bless

God bless

The problem remains… it is not Scriptures that gives you security of Salvation; it is Christ!

AoSs might be well-intended and Bible-read people but they based their belief on something not taught by the Apostles… when this is pointed out to you, and I guess the rest of the AoSs you simply chose to ignore it.

The Jehovah Witnesses are also a people that are Biblically centered (at least according to them) and they use not Scriptures but their interpretation of Scriptures to reject Christ’s Divinity, to claim that they are God’s visible church, and to reject the Catholic Church and paint her as the whore of Babylon… they claim complete ownership of Christ by claiming that they are the 144K that will see God and that the rest of the world, including their own members will not see God nor enjoy Heaven with Christ…

If you truly are seeking the Truth, please start by putting aside all that you have “learned” about Salvation and security through the appropriation of a few selective passages which are then intrepreted to mean what you (AoSs) want them to mean.

Here’s Christ’s take on assurance of Salvation:

…clearly, unless you fault Jesus, this passage is not speaking to sinners, pagans, unbelievers or atheists! Jesus is speaking of and to the Believers: “you are clean,” “remain in Me,” “anyone who does not,” “is thrown away,” “and are burnt.”

My Salvation, as yours and that of the rest of manking, including AoSs, is Secured only in Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Let’s look at Hebrews 6:4-8. Before I even start, note there is much written on this section of Scripture, so it will hardly do it justice in the short answer I will attempt below in this thread. It will touch on unpardonable sin such that it is “impossible” - the correct translation of this particular Greek word - for this person to return to the congregation in repentance. The idea that “tasting” may be likened to “sampling” - checking it out, so to speak.

We don’t know the writer of Hebrews, but we accept that this letter is inspired by God which implies Holy Spirit authorship. The audience is a group of Jewish Christians since Gentiles are not mentioned. When addressing a “congregation” of professing Christians, we realize that some in the group may not be true believers. It is useful to engage them and warn them of God’s righteous wrath.

Verses 4-6. 4 For it is impossible… to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The sin of unbelief, that is, sustained unbelief, is the worst sin of all - the true unpardonable sin. Imagine some people within this congregation of believers that learn and understand, intellectually, the Gospel, who have participated in communion and tasted or sampled it all (the didn’t receive it… only… sampled it), who have seen the Holy Spirit at work within their fellowship, participated in the fellowship, and yet they have not truly believed in Jesus. For them who know that much truth yet reject Jesus Christ as Savior and leave, it is “impossible” that they could repent and believe. To them, no sacrifice could be adequate. (I think we could place Judas, whom we have discussed on this thread, into a similar group. Herod, per Mark 6:20, also comes to mind since he liked to listen to John the Baptist even though he feared him, but when pressed Herod rejected him and had him beheaded.)

This is a dire warning to Hebrew Christians in the congregation that may be considering leaving. If they leave, then they will remain in unbelief. No new birth. No real love for Jesus. Though they may look and talk like Christians and participate in all the rituals and events for now, but if they leave they won’t be restored to the fellowship - that would be “impossible.” They may fool people in the congregation, but they left because they were AND they remain spiritually dead. Without any Savior, they will receive the punishment for their own sins in hell for eternity.

This is completely consistent with 1 John 2:19 which says, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Verses 7 and 8. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

The Gospel is like rain that falls to the earth. The Christian, the elect, will hear it and bear fruit that brings glory to God since God has given His grace that resurrects the spiritually dead sinner with the new birth - born again with spiritual life. Not so for the unbeliever who, though a witness to Christianity, never embraces the Gospel and never believes in Jesus nor bears any real fruit (they may do “good works” with the motive a looking good in the eyes of their friends or family - but not for God’s glory). That unbeliever will endure the fires of hell forever.

Regards, OldProf

…that is a wonderful interpretation of Scriptures… it is remarkable how only the unbelievers will suffer Hell and only the elect will gain Salvation (144K Jehovah Witnesses, according to them)… but is that really what Scriptures state or are we taking liberties in translating, digging into words’ origins and using rose-colored eye-glasses while constructing our interpretations?

Here’s Christ’s take on those who fail to adhere to Him:

21 'It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 When the day comes many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?” 23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers! 24 ‘Therefore, everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on rock. 25 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and hurled themselves against that house, and it did not fall: it was founded on rock. 26 But everyone who listens to these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand. 27 Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and struck that house, and it fell; and what a fall it had!’ (St. Matthew 7:21-27)

…so Christ base Salvation not on knowledge of God or even supernatural abilities but on humble obedience to God’s Will… here’s how we can tell what is God’s Will:

If you love me you will keep my commandments. (St. John 14:15)

Note that Christ did not say “keep the 10 commandments” or “the Law” or “be cognizant of Scriptures” or “hold on to your God-given elected secured Salvation;” rather, He clearly stated “Keep My Commandments!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Ubenedictus]

Let’s look at Hebrews 6:4-8. Before I even start, note there is much written on this section of Scripture, so it will hardly do it justice in the short answer I will attempt below in this thread. It will touch on unpardonable sin such that it is “impossible” - the correct translation of this particular Greek word - for this person to return to the congregation in repentance. The idea that “tasting” may be likened to “sampling” - checking it out, so to speak.

We don’t know the writer of Hebrews, but we accept that this letter is inspired by God which implies Holy Spirit authorship. The audience is a group of Jewish Christians since Gentiles are not mentioned. When addressing a “congregation” of professing Christians, we realize that some in the group may not be true believers. It is useful to engage them and warn them of God’s righteous wrath.

Verses 4-6. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The sin of unbelief, that is, sustained unbelief, is the worst sin of all - the true unpardonable sin. Imagine some people within this congregation of believers that learn and understand, intellectually, the Gospel, who have participated in communion and tasted or sampled it all (the didn’t receive it, they only tasted or sampled it),** who have seen the Holy Spirit at work within their fellowship, participated in the fellowship,\B] and yet they have not truly believed in Jesus. For them who know that much truth yet reject Jesus Christ as Savior and leave, it is “impossible” that they could repent and believe. To them, no sacrifice could be adequate. (I think we could place Judas, whom we have discussed on this thread, into a similar group. Herod, per Mark 6:20, also comes to mind since he liked to listen to John the Baptist even though he feared him, but when pressed Herod rejected him and had him beheaded.)

This is a dire warning to Hebrew Christians in the congregation that may be considering leaving. If they leave, then they will remain in unbelief. No new birth. No real love for Jesus. Though they may look and talk like Christians and participate in all the rituals and events for now, but if they leave they won’t be restored to the fellowship - that would be “impossible.” They may fool people in the congregation, but they left because they were AND they remain spiritually dead**. Without any Savior, they will receive the punishment for their own sins in hell for eternity.

This is completely consistent with 1 John 2:19 which says, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Verses 7 and 8. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

The Gospel is like rain that falls to the earth. The Christian, the elect, will hear it and bear fruit that brings glory to God since God has given His grace that resurrects the spiritually dead sinner with the new birth - born again with spiritual life. Not so for the unbeliever who, though a witness to Christianity, never embraces the Gospel and never believes in Jesus nor bears any real fruit (they may do “good works” with the motive a looking good in the eyes of their friends or family - but not for God’s glory). That unbeliever will endure the fires of hell forever.

Regards, OldProf you are reading into the passage, the bible didn’t say the above, the bible says “shared IN the holy spirit” not “saw d spirit at work”

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Jcrichton,

There you go again … providing another sterling proof that ‘AoS’ is strictly a tradition of man - and OldProf has not really setteled in to respond to all the others! Truly an excellent point - and one I hope caught by all who read this post - but… I don’t know … he seemed overwhelmed before you posted. I don’t know … can one ‘drown’ in backloged e-mail - there is no life guard to save him … oh, I forgot … Well, so much for assurance - would that we had the assurance of a focused response!

May all on this thread have a most Blessed Thanksgiving

God bless

God bless

I feel for OldProf… but he keeps posting with language that seems open to all who want to respond…

…if only we could restart this thread (or another one) taking a different approach… perhaps working on a single passage/theme at one time…

…well, like Jesus… I will answer the call if they com’n knocking!

Happy (Biblical) Thanksgiving!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[OldProf]

The problem remains… it is not Scriptures that gives you security of Salvation; it is Christ!

AoSs might be well-intended and Bible-read people but they based their belief on something not taught by the Apostles… when this is pointed out to you, and I guess the rest of the AoSs you simply chose to ignore it.

The Jehovah Witnesses are also a people that are Biblically centered (at least according to them) and they use not Scriptures but their interpretation of Scriptures to reject Christ’s Divinity, to claim that they are God’s visible church, and to reject the Catholic Church and paint her as the whore of Babylon… they claim complete ownership of Christ by claiming that they are the 144K that will see God and that the rest of the world, including their own members will not see God nor enjoy Heaven with Christ…

If you truly are seeking the Truth, please start by putting aside all that you have “learned” about Salvation and security through the appropriation of a few selective passages which are then intrepreted to mean what you (AoSs) want them to mean.

Here’s Christ’s take on assurance of Salvation:

…clearly, unless you fault Jesus, this passage is not speaking to sinners, pagans, unbelievers or atheists! Jesus is speaking of and to the Believers: “you are clean,” “remain in Me,” “anyone who does not,” “is thrown away,” “and are burnt.”

My Salvation, as yours and that of the rest of manking, including AoSs, is Secured only in Jesus!

Maran atha!

Angel

Angel, I try to keep the Scriptures from contradicting one another. What you are telling me is that Jesus is not a good shepherd because His sheep can perish (John 10:27-29). What you are telling me is that the Father can give people to Jesus that then go to hell (John 6:37-40, 44, 65). And I could go on and on. But you have seen many of my posts and know the Scriptures I have used to show that Salvation is of the Lord, and He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith. “We love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:19

I believe the interpretations I have provided to John 15 and Hebrews 6 provide a better systematic theology.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

you are reading into the passage, the bible didn’t say the above, the bible says “shared IN the holy spirit” not “saw d spirit at work”

See my post to Angel.

Regards, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

Angel, I try to keep the Scriptures from contradicting one another. What you are telling me is that Jesus is not a good shepherd because His sheep can perish (John 10:27-29). What you are telling me is that the Father can give people to Jesus that then go to hell (John 6:37-40, 44, 65). And I could go on and on. But you have seen many of my posts and know the Scriptures I have used to show that Salvation is of the Lord, and He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith. “We love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:19

I believe the interpretations I have provided to John 15 and Hebrews 6 provide a better systematic theology.

Regards, OldProf

…again, Scriptures do not contradict each other… the reason why you seem to believe that you are the elect and the sheep and have attained the security of Eternal Salvation is due, in part, because you see such themes in Scriptures… but to suggest that you are guaranteed by God to always be Saved regardless of what you choose to do is contradicting God Himself Who has repeatedly demonstrated that He, as Powerful as He is, does not force Salvation upon anyone and that He, as Just as He is, will not condemn man on a roll of the dice!

Salvation is Eternal because it is Granted by God. We are elect in Christ Jesus for Salvation but that does not mean that God deliberately wills most of humanity to damnation. It is clear from Scriptures that God wants all to be Saved… so either you are correct and I am wrong or it is simply an error in your interpretation of Scriptures:

4 The word of Yahweh came to me, saying: 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you came to birth I consecrated you; I appointed you as prophet to the nations.’ (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

14 I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world. 15 I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the Evil One. 16 They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. 17 Consecrate them in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world, 19 and for their sake I consecrate myself so that they too may be consecrated in truth. 20 I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. (St. John 17:14-19)

…so if the “elect” or “sheep” or “Eternally Save” do exist (in the manner in which you understand it to be), which would mandate that those who are not are implicitly damned, that would make God disingenuous since He has promised that there is Salvation for those who hear His Word and Believe!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[fbl9]

Let’s look at Hebrews 6:4-8. Before I even start, note there is much written on this section of Scripture, so it will hardly do it justice in the short answer I will attempt below in this thread. It will touch on unpardonable sin such that it is “impossible” - the correct translation of this particular Greek word - for this person to return to the congregation in repentance. The idea that “tasting” may be likened to “sampling” - checking it out, so to speak.

We don’t know the writer of Hebrews, but we accept that this letter is inspired by God which implies Holy Spirit authorship. The audience is a group of Jewish Christians since Gentiles are not mentioned. When addressing a “congregation” of professing Christians, we realize that some in the group may not be true believers. It is useful to engage them and warn them of God’s righteous wrath.

Verses 4-6. 4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The sin of unbelief, that is, sustained unbelief, is the worst sin of all - the true unpardonable sin. Imagine some people within this congregation of believers that learn and understand, intellectually, the Gospel, who have participated in communion and tasted or sampled it all (the didn’t receive it, they only tasted or sampled it), who have seen the Holy Spirit at work within their fellowship, participated in the fellowship, and yet they have not truly believed in Jesus. For them who know that much truth yet reject Jesus Christ as Savior and leave, it is “impossible” that they could repent and believe. To them, no sacrifice could be adequate. (I think we could place Judas, whom we have discussed on this thread, into a similar group. Herod, per Mark 6:20, also comes to mind since he liked to listen to John the Baptist even though he feared him, but when pressed Herod rejected him and had him beheaded.)

This is a dire warning to Hebrew Christians in the congregation that may be considering leaving. If they leave, then they will remain in unbelief. No new birth. No real love for Jesus. Though they may look and talk like Christians and participate in all the rituals and events for now, but if they leave they won’t be restored to the fellowship - that would be “impossible.” They may fool people in the congregation, but they left because they were AND they remain spiritually dead. Without any Savior, they will receive the punishment for their own sins in hell for eternity.

I have problems with your theology here OLdProf.
One can not repent unless they believe, thus they have more than just merely sampled.
You seem to be making a judgement that only God can make, that is if these persons being spoke of actually beleive.
If one never beleived in the first place how can they commit the unpardonable sin, for one needs to be a beleiver in order to leave the faith.

 

[guanophore]

I try to keep the Scriptures from contradicting one another.

I think this statement speaks volumes about the differences between Catholics and Bible Christians. Catholics receive the Apostolic faith from those who were entrusted to pass it down to us. When we read the Scriptures, we approach them from the perspective that they canont contradicte one another, and therefore, it they appear to do so, then it is our understanding that is lacking.

People who adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura have jettisoned the Sacred Tradition that produced the Scriptures, and have replaced it with their own authority. Therefore, they are left in this position indicated above, in which they must work hard to produce an interpretation that does not appear to contradict.  Yet, this very thread is full of scriptures that contradict the AoS point of view.  :confused:

What you are telling me is that Jesus is not a good shepherd because His sheep can perish (John 10:27-29).

No, OP, what we are telling you is that those sheep have a choice. They can continue in the Way of the shepherd, or they can choose to run off into the wilderness.

What you are telling me is that the Father can give people to Jesus that then go to hell (John 6:37-40, 44, 65).

No, OP, what we are telling you is that the branches need to stay rooted in the Vine, so that they don’t go to hell.

And I could go on and on. But you have seen many of my posts and know the Scriptures I have used to show that Salvation is of the Lord, and He is the Author and Perfecter of our faith. “We love because he first loved us.” 1 John 4:19

Indeed it is. And He has saved us out of His Love, and Love requires that the object be free to choose. He does not compel us to be found in HIm, like puppets, but calls us His friends. and moreover, we show our love for Him in our obedience.

I believe the interpretations I have provided to John 15 and Hebrews 6 provide a better systematic theology.

Regards, OldProf

A systematic theology, no doubt, and perhaps better for you because it better abrogates the remainder of the Scriptures that are not consistent with the “system”.