Assurance of Salvation

[brb3]

G-4 …

Explain Romans 13:11-14 to us. I will quote it for the record.

"Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is FULL TIME NOW for you to WAKE FROM SLEEP. FOR SALVATION IS NEARER TO US NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED; the night is far gone, the day is at hand. LET US CAST OFF THE WORKS OF DARKNESS AND PUT ON THE ARMOR OF LIGHT; LET US CONDUCT OURSELVES BECOMINGLY as in the day, NOT IN REVELING AND DRUNKENNESS, NOT IN DEBAUCHERY AND LICENTIOUSNESS, NOT IN QUARRELING AND JEALOUSY, but PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ, and MAKE NO PROVISION FOR THE FLESH, to gratify its desires. "

1. Who is Paul talking to here ? [gentiles, jews, redeemed, heathen, future tense readers, etc ]
2. Does this language suggest these gentile believers were in no need of serious confession/repentance/rededication ??

 

[PeaceInChrist]

2 Peter 3: “[9] The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brb3,

Maybe I have misread your post … and, just need a wee bit of clarification. Are you saying that Catholics who state that, “…a SINGLE unconfessed mortal sin [on our last day] precludes entrance into the Kingdom…” have ‘overly-emphasized’ this (and to me this means a lack of balance in not following the teaching of the Catholic Church) and are therefore, wrong?

If my understanding of your statement is correct, what is your reference in Church teaching that this is a fact?

And, if a ‘SINGLE’ mortal sin won’t do it, how many does it take to be denied entrance into the Kingdom?

As I see it, ‘a SINGLE’ mortal sin is sufficient to deny entrance into the Kingdom. And, if you have any doubt, the Catechism of the Cathlic Church goes into some significant detail concerning sin. Here is a link: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm and, your attention is directed to item #1861.

Her answer is better than yours … both both answers need to be qualified by the FACTS of the Gospel.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

God bless

Christ promises that ALL who place faith in Him, and take up Cross and follow Him to the end … will see the Kingdom. Its a two part proposition for us.

Protestants tend to emphasize Step 1, Catholics tend to overly-emphasize Step 2. [by teaching that a SINGLE unconfessed mortal sin [on our last day] precludes entrance into the Kingdom].

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Brb3,

I think that this link will give you a good explanation of this section of Romans: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Romans_13

In my opinion, it would be a mistake to think that a particular letter was written to a particular group does not have direct applications to our belief and behavior as followers of Christ. Paul was specifically addressing both Greek and Jew. Here is a quote you may be helpful:

“The apostle’s chief design was not only to unite all the new Christian converts, whether they had been Gentiles or Jews, in the same faith, but also to bring them to an union in charity, love, and peace; to put an end to those disputes and contentions among them, which were particularly occasioned by those zealous Jewish converts, who were for obliging all Christians to the observance of the Mosaic precepts and ceremonies. They who had been Jews, boasted that they were the elect people of God, preferred before all other nations, to whom he had given his written law, precepts, and ceremonies by Moses, to whom he had sent his prophets, and had performed so many miracles in their favour, while the Gentiles were left in their ignorance and idolatry.” veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Romans

In answer to your first question, Paul is addressing both Greek and Jew.

In answer to your second question, after reading Chapter 13, I think that both Greek and Jew were being instructed by Paul on how to change their behavior as a follower of Christ. Greeks went down one wrong path while Jews went down another, but equally wrong path. Bringing both groups of new Catholics closer to Christ is the real focus.

I hope this helps.

God bless

G-4 …

Explain Romans 13:11-14 to us. I will quote it for the record.

"Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is FULL TIME NOW for you to WAKE FROM SLEEP. FOR SALVATION IS NEARER TO US NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED; the night is far gone, the day is at hand. LET US CAST OFF THE WORKS OF DARKNESS AND PUT ON THE ARMOR OF LIGHT; LET US CONDUCT OURSELVES BECOMINGLY as in the day, NOT IN REVELING AND DRUNKENNESS, NOT IN DEBAUCHERY AND LICENTIOUSNESS, NOT IN QUARRELING AND JEALOUSY, but PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ, and MAKE NO PROVISION FOR THE FLESH, to gratify its desires. "

1. Who is Paul talking to here ? [gentiles, jews, redeemed, heathen, future tense readers, etc ]
2. Does this language suggest these gentile believers were in no need of serious confession/repentance/rededication ??

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

I do not think anyone has forgotten God’s Mercy. But, don’t forget God’s Justice. And, through it All - remember God is One.

‘There you go again … arriving at a bottom line that really does not contain all it should.’ I think you will need to go back to your quotes and include those you have missed … and then, make another attempt at the ‘bottom line’. Here are some links that just cry out for your attention:

veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/2_Peter_3 Specific to 2Peter 3:9 - NO ONE is excluded from God’s desire that all be saved. And this inclusive language is quite different for the tragically ‘bleeting phrase’ of, “I’m one of the Sheep and you aren’t!”

veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Matthew_7 This chapter is quite clear that by one’s fruits, you will know them - and this can not be just faith, but works, too - for no one can see faith, but all can see a person’s works.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

"For Catholics, when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace” (CCC 600). Thus, anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved.

However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell. Indeed, the Bible cannot be any plainer than to say God is, “not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Pt 3:9). God wills all to be saved. To be damned, a person must willfully reject God’s “predestined plan” for his salvation (cf. CCC 2037): simple enough.’ The rest - which specifically addresses Calvinists is a bit lengthy - but, here is the link: catholic.com/magazine/articles/predestined-for-freedom

Ultimately, as I have said before, claims about being one of the Elect - or one of the Sheep - are premature at best. All of have Free Will - and are free to turn against God at any time prior to our death. Death seals us in the direction we are facing - either towards or away from God. This is not to say that we lack both Faith and Hope to be with Christ in Heaven - it is just that we do not have that ‘assurance’ that parades around with the idea that - no matter what one does they are saved. I am not aware of a better example of presumption in action as ‘AoS’ or ‘OSAS’.

One last thought… … take a good look at Abraham - born in sin, and undoubtedly a sinful man - just like the rest of us. Yet Abraham was selected by God for an important mission - and this is strictly according to God’s Grace and Good Pleasure. But, you know, Abraham had to willingly cooperate with the Grace of God for God to work in his life. Had Abraham refused to obey God and accept His Gift - well … who knows. Denied that Abraham could have refused would be to deny Abraham’s Free Will. Thank God Abraham chose to cooperate with God’s Grace.

God bless

Remember God’s mercy? Read Ephesians 2. Clearly, Jesus saves His people - those sinners given to Him by the Father.

But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:20-21

Angel, who are “his people”?

The answer is easy enough.

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

That’s Jesus speaking in John 6:37,44,65. And notice how Jesus prays just before being arrested. He first prays for His disciples, and then He says,

24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:24-26

Paul says,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1:4

Paul says,

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Paul, in his final letter, says of God,

who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Timothy 1:9

Bottom Line: Jesus provided atonement for a specific group - God’s Elect.

Regards, OldProf

 

[fbl9]

OldProf;10025553yo:

So uare saying that an unbeliever can do a righteous work? I would disagree. Only a believer can do righteous works. And only that through God’s grace. Paul writes,

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:1-10

Those are verses worthy of serious thought and consideration. If we understand just how grave sin really is, we must be grateful that God shows His mercy to ANY sinner.

Regards, OldProf

Should have worded it differently, we became believers while dead in our sin.how ever beleiving did not remove our sin till we choose to repent.

An you sit here telling us that sin is not at all grave for yourself.

 

[october_baby]

That website is a goldmine! Thanks for the link.

Jennifer

Seconded!!!

 

[guanophore]

Should have worded it differently, we became believers while dead in our sin.how ever beleiving did not remove our sin till we choose to repent.

An you sit here telling us that sin is not at all grave for yourself.

It is not always their fault, though it is hard to tell exactly how educated OldProf is. Most Reformed and therefore most Evangelical Christians have been taught that there is no difference in severity of sins, and that all of their sins were nailed to the cross of Christ, carried by Him and put to death there, and so the “sin issue” has already been dealt with. I have debated with a number of Reformed Christians here on CAF who are very preoccupied with what they perceive Catholics suffer as a “sin issue” that we bring upon ourselves because we do not accept the facts of what happened on the cross.

I have also heard the accusation many times that Catholics think we are saved but on “probation”, as if salvation will be lost if we do not keep the probationary rules. These positions result from an incomplete understanding of what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[OldProf]

Seconded!!!

I commented on that website in post #42 on 31 Mar 12. Since it doesn’t handle real arguments and glosses over them, I certainly cannot recommend it. If you are impressed by it, then I suggest you follow up and see how it handles some of the verses that I have posted in this thread. There are significantly more challenges that I believe support AoS doctrine.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Should have worded it differently, we became believers while dead in our sin.how ever beleiving did not remove our sin till we choose to repent.

An you sit here telling us that sin is not at all grave for yourself.

I think sin kills. Death. Isn’t that what Paul means?

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

And I think sin is VERY grave even for the elect. See Hebrews 12:3-17. See 1 Corinthians 11:27-32.

Regards, OldProf

 

[guanophore]

I commented on that website in post #42 on 31 Mar 12. Since it doesn’t handle real arguments and glosses over them, I certainly cannot recommend it. If you are impressed by it, then I suggest you follow up and see how it handles some of the verses that I have posted in this thread. There are significantly more challenges that I believe support AoS doctrine.

Regards, OldProf

I think this is a very good place to take on such challenges, OldProf. Perhaps once you are through with your responses to the current posts, we could take on some of those on the other site?

 

[guanophore]

I think sin kills. Death. Isn’t that what Paul means?

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

And I think sin is VERY grave even for the elect. See Hebrews 12:3-17. See 1 Corinthians 11:27-32.

Regards, OldProf

Perhaps, but it is not part of your systematic theology, is it, that sin can separate the elect from God. You seem to equate God’s love with God’s salvation, and use the passages about not being separated from HIs love as equivalent to not being separated from his salvation.

You still have no response for my observation that God’s love allows us to walk through the gates of hell if we so choose, or to my observation that the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose (salvation) for themselves.

It seems to me that your systematic theology somehow changes the nature of sin, since before the cross, sin separated humanity from God, and yet “this side of the cross” sin no longer has the power to do so. The “death” and gravity you claim above is only temporal in your system, is it not? The “true believer” will not suffer eternal death no matter how much grave sin there is in his life.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

So you are saying that an unbeliever can do a righteous work? I would disagree.

Regards, OldProf

Romans 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[OldProf]

Yes, I do, and I posted them above. I know you have limited time and also have a lot of posts to cover. Are you using the “view first unread” each time you come to the thread? This link will keep track of where you left off, and is one of the best tools to prevent missing posts. However if you want me to give you the post numbers, I will find them for you. I would really like to get your perspective on those verse that seem to contradict total depravity.

guanophore, I’m sad to say that, contrary to my normal engineering checklist methodology, I have not been well organized on CA in my responses. And the backlog gets bigger, especially in the last 4 weeks (“the behinder I get” phrase comes to mind).

Please give me the post numbers you mention. And I’ll work on some responses that demonstrate my perspective.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Romans 2: 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

I’m thinking more from God’s perspective of righteousness, which is Christ-likeness.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

filthy rags = menstrual cloths

4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Philippians 3:4-11

Note: Paul says “rubbish” (Greek “skuvbalon”) which means “dung” or “human excrement” - gives not only a sense of worthlessness, but also revulsion.

The atheist who rejects God everyday, but tells the truth to his family and friends and feels he is so honest and upright - this man is not righteous before God. He rejects God.

Paul confirms in Romans 3:

10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Gives one pause to think about God’s perspective on the unbeliever, doesn’t it? I’ve seen some pretty hard working Jehovah’s Witnesses working their works-righteousness system - how do they stack up to being righteous before God? Not too high, I would guess.

Regards, OldProf

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, I’m sad to say that, contrary to my normal engineering checklist methodology, I have not been well organized on CA in my responses. And the backlog gets bigger, especially in the last 4 weeks (“the behinder I get” phrase comes to mind).

Please give me the post numbers you mention. And I’ll work on some responses that demonstrate my perspective.

Regards, OldProf

Engineering does not prepare one to get swarmed by a pack of Catholics who love debate.

The points I would like to dialogue with you about I made in Post 736.

It is basically on the point of Total Depravity, which also relates to those verses on scripturecatholic.com that you thought were “weak” so maybe we can hit them both at the same time?

 

[guanophore]

I'm thinking more from God's perspective of righteousness, which is Christ-likeness.

This is all well and good,but a theology of salvation/justification or righteousness before God by nature must be able to address salvation and righteousness before Christ as well.
I contend that people have always been saved in the same way - by grace through faith. We know that some people were taken to heaven in the OT times and did not wait until Jesus opened the gates or preached to those in Abraham’s bosom. Elijah was taken up, as was Enoch. Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ and had conversation with him about his upcoming “departure”. Then we have the catalogue of faith in Heb. 11. And we have the parents of John the Baptist:

Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. Luke 1:6

I don’t think that we would have a disagreement that one cannot be righteous before God unless they are made through by grace, through faith. I think we would also be in agreement that anyone who was able to keep the commandments and decrees of the Lord blamelessly could only do so by the power of the Holy Spirit.

These people are all pre-Christ examples of righteousness. I am sure a case can be made that the character of God was formed in them, and I am certainly not saying that what they did was contrary to Christ’s nature, but their righteousness was before He came. And as the example given in Romans, one can act in accordance with one’s conscience and be judge righteous, even though they do not know the faith of Abraham or of Christ.

It is not sufficient for you to waive off the Romans passage by saying “well I am talking about Christ like righteousness”. While valid, that does not account for what the Apostle is teaching about pagans.

This is one of the reasons that Catholics find your systematic theology insufficient. There are too many truths presented in scripture that contradict, or at the least are unaccounted for in the model.

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64:6

filthy rags = menstrual cloths

And Catholics would agree that our own efforts (based in the flesh) are certainly this way. But plucking this verse out of context does not sufficiently account for the righteousness of the OT saints. Surely you do not think all those faithful souls listed in Heb. 11 were not acting by the righteousness of God!?

The context from which this verse is ripped is about those who abandon the faith and turn to sin. The verse before the one you plucked out says:

You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?

This passage is really a better support for the Catholic position that we must be obedient to HIm and CONTINUE in Him to be saved. If we continue to sin, anything we do will be like a filthy rag.

4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Philippians 3:4-11

Note: Paul says “rubbish” (Greek “skuvbalon”) which means “dung” or “human excrement” - gives not only a sense of worthlessness, but also revulsion.

Yes, but he also finds reason for boasting in other places. Here he is making a comparison between his human achievements and what has been accomplished in Him by the grace of God. Nothing we can do from human effort can compare to Him. In comparison, it is dung.

However that does not mean it has no value. God prepared Saul of Tarsus using all these human achievements so that He could sent him as the Apostle to the Gentiles. And Paul himself places the solid foundation of Christianity in the Jews, and how the Jews were prepared for HIs coming.

 

[guanophore]

The atheist who rejects God everyday, but tells the truth to his family and friends and feels he is so honest and upright - this man is not righteous before God. He rejects God.

True, but the atheist or probably better the agnostic who has an inner knowing of right and wrong and lives according to it everyday and demonstrates a higher consistency with God’s moral law than many calling themselves Christian, will be judge according to his deeds, as the Scripture says.

Paul confirms in Romans 3:

10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

Context, context, context OldProf. Here you are ripping another verse from the pages to prove a point. And the point that Paul is making is that both Jew and Gentile are accountable equally before God for their sins. The Jew will not be excused from his sins and faithlessness just because he is a Jew.

And if you look further into the context, you will see that the passage from which this is taken from Psalm 14 and is talking about the fool who says in his heart there is no God. The very next Psalm has this:

2 The one whose walk is blameless,
who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from their heart;
3 whose tongue utters no slander,
who does no wrong to a neighbor,
and casts no slur on others;
4 who despises a vile person
but honors those who fear the Lord;
who keeps an oath even when it hurts,
and does not change their mind;
5 who lends money to the poor without interest;
who does not accept a bribe against the innocent.

Whoever does these things
will never be shaken.

So obviously there are both fools and faithful.

 Gives one pause to think about God's perspective on the unbeliever, doesn't it?

Yes, of course. But as the Scriptures also show, His perspective on the believer is quite different, along with His perspective on those who do not know Him for who He is, as Paul preached “that which you worship as unknown”.

Even Pagans can be righteous before God if they live according to their conscience, in which are written His moral law.

 I've seen some pretty hard working Jehovah's Witnesses working their works-righteousness system - how do they stack up to being righteous before God? Not too high, I would guess.

Regards, OldProf

Well, we leave that judgement up to God. Most JW’s I have met are very fervent and devout, yet misinformed and misled. God does not condemn anyone who is misinformed and misled. People are condemned for rejecting His purpose for themselves. They, like you, stand in the tradition of Apollos, lacking the fulness of the Truth.

 

[OldProf]

Engineering does not prepare one to get swarmed by a pack of Catholics who love debate.

The points I would like to dialogue with you about I made in Post 736.

It is basically on the point of Total Depravity, which also relates to those verses on scripturecatholic.com that you thought were “weak” so maybe we can hit them both at the same time?

Hey, I like to debate to!

In your posts that follow (794, 795) you indicate I have a problem with context. And if so, that is good to know. However, in this case, I would respectfully disagree. The “righteous acts” of an unbeliever have a lot to do with personal pride and bringing glory to the unbeliever, not to God. That kind of “righteousness” is so tainted and defiled and so unlike the righteousness of God, that it brings on these comparisons. Today we might compare sin to the deadly poison that terrorist put into the water supply. Sin pervades the choices that the unregenerate make.

I feel there is a lot more that could be said about this, but I can’t say it tonight. I’m going on vacation for 9 days and have a 14 hour drive ahead of me tomorrow morning. I’m hoping to be able to post from our vacation site.

One last quick comment. I studied weekly from 1997 to 2004 with some serious and dedicated Jehovah’s Witnesses. They wanted me to be “in the truth.” They are henotheists with Jesus as the greatest man who ever lived, he is a mighty god, but not God Almighty. They believe in the WRONG Jesus. John the Baptist said, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36) In 8 years you can see their pride, their false humility, their anger - sometimes extreme when seriously challenged. If there is one thing they need, it is the true Gospel.

Gotta go!

Sincerely, OldProf

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t see how this follows. Yes, the Scriptures needed to be fulfilled, but Jesus used plenty of people to fulfill His mission that cannot be considered the Elect. We see the Sanhedrin court, Pilate,Herod, etc. All these people participated in His sacrifice of Himself. There was no need for Judas to be one of the sheep/elect.

John 6:69-71
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him.

Jesus chose Judas to be one of the 12, knowing that he would betray Him, and knowing that Judas would have to be replaced by Matthias. Where does Jesus ever claim Judas as a sheep,

I think you are assuming that all of the 12 must, by definition, be the elect. I don’t think this is true.

Yes, all Israel is called, and all the world is called, but calling does not equate to election. The elect are only those who answer the call. Judas never did answer the call (to faith in Christ), He became a disciple (at least outwardly) and one of the 12, but his heart was never surrendered to Christ, nor was He regenerate.

This is why Jesus dissmissed him prior to instituting the Eucharist, and washing the feet of the Apostles. He did not take part in that ministry.

…again, I think its due to perspective:

12 Were it an enemy who insulted me, that I could bear; if an opponent pitted himself against me, I could turn away from him. 13 But you, a person of my own rank, a comrade and dear friend, 14 to whom I was bound by intimate friendship in the house of God! (Psalm 55:12-14a–compare with St. Matthew 26:21-24)

…other than the Twelve none could be considered part of Jesus’ inner circle; even Lazarus and his sisters were mere “friends” of Jesus and not of any particular importance in His Ministry… if Scriptures were to be fulfilled, and the Word of God does not lie, then one of the Twelve had to be the betrayer… being an elect/chosen/sheep does not make any difference in the atonomy of the person who is free to submit his/her will to God or reject Him. Since God is in the business of Saving man not condemning him (Ezekiel 18) God must “elect” all to be Saved or He is being double-minded and negating His Word!:

31 Shake off all the crimes you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why die, House of Israel? 32 I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – declares the Lord Yahweh – so repent and live!’ (Ezekiel 18:31-32)

…as far as Judas’ status as part of Christ’s sheep/elect, I could be wrong… I could be reading something that’s not there… but have you looked carefully at Scritures? …even as the event of Judas’ betrayal is retold the Writer does not dismiss Judas as a crank, but continues to include him as part of Christ’s chosen Twelve:

47 Suddenly, while he was still speaking, a number of men appeared, and at the head of them the man called Judas, one of the Twelve, who went up to Jesus to kiss him. 48 Jesus said, ‘Judas, are you betraying the Son of man with a kiss?’ (St. Luke 22:47-48)

Judas was chosen/elected by Christ and the Gospel Writer does not determine, on his own, that Judas ceased being a person Called/elect/chosen by Christ… perhaps “election” is being confused with “anointing”… while election is made of all men, anointing is received by few select individuals who are separated for a very specific function (prophet, king, bishop):

This very day you have seen for yourself how Yahweh put you in my power in the cave and how, refusing to kill you, I spared you saying, “I will not raise my hand against my lord, since he is Yahweh’s anointed.” (1 Samuel 24:11)

…since Judas did not respond to Christ’s Call as the Eleven another was chosen to take his place… because Judas did not receive the anointing of the Holy Spirit along with the Eleven, it could well be said that he did not receive the Holy Orders or the Anointing of the Priesthood; consequently his ministry and apostolate was passed to one that actually received the Call and humbly submitted himself to God:

23 Having nominated two candidates, Joseph known as Barsabbas, whose surname was Justus, and Matthias, 24 they prayed, ‘Lord, you can read everyone’s heart; show us therefore which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this ministry and apostolate, which Judas abandoned to go to his proper place.’ 26 They then drew lots for them, and as the lot fell to Matthias, he was listed as one of the twelve apostles. Acts 1:23-26)

…up until that very moment that Judas openly betrayed Jesus he was still part of Christ’s Ministry and Christ Himself makes no distinction between the Remnant and the rest of Israel, they are all His sheep!:

1 He summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits with power to drive them out and to cure all kinds of disease and all kinds of illness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon who is known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who was also his betrayer. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them as follows: 'Do not make your way to gentile territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town; 6 go instead to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (St. Matthew 10:1-6)

Maran atha!

Angel