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fbl9
Guest
well OldProf you and i both choose to repent when we were dead in our sins.
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jcrichton
Guest
…actually, there’s some evidence that he was corrupt (as far as being interested in temporal gratification); but Judas is, as difficul as it seems for some to believe, Jesus’ necessary weak link; Judas had to experience spiritual blindness, similar to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, in order to not understand Who Jesus was and how awful his betrayal would be; still, in spite of his lack of Faith, since Scriptures could not be fulfilled unless Jesus would be betrayed, Jesus had to make Judas one of the “sheep”/“elect!”
…but all of Israel was Called; just as all of humanity is Called to Salvation in Christ Jesus… so in that sense the status (state of being) of the “elect”/“sheep”/“children” is Eternal and cannot be lost (which is why so many get hanged up on “eternal Salvation”) since God never removes His Election (Ezekiel 18); it is man who, by humbly submitting to God, is able to exercise that status or fails to do so (loses Salvation) when he chooses to reject God (sin); but both, the ones that respond to God’s Call and the ones who do not, maintain their free will and can always recant/negate or respond to God’s Call (again Ezekiel 18 + St. Matthew 21:28-31)
That’s my understanding of the osas theology where God’s Mercy and Justice is as crude and self-serving as the vilest of mankind’s… yes, the Call is for Eternal Salvation; yes, in Christ we are Granted Eternal Salvation; but no there’s no eternally saved person whose eternal security is granted against any and all willful disobedience of Christ’s Commandments!:
If Jesus* is *the Vine, then the Believers (“elect”/“sheep”/“children”) are the branches… and Jesus does not state that these “special” branches are eternally saved but that they must remain in Him and produce fruits or be cut off and burnt!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
…so when Scriptures say that when we were yet still sinners God Gave His Only Begotten Son… was that futility on God’s Part or was He making Salvation available to all, sinner and the just (oh wait, did Scriptures not state that there’s none just, not even one?)?
Maran atha!
Angel
J
jcrichton
Guest
…what? …you guys were not alive? :bigyikes:
…let me get this right… the “elect” are alive and eternally saved and the rest are dead and eternally damned… so why Calvary?
Maran atha!
Angel
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Linusthe2nd
Guest
We cannot know with absolute certitude. That is why, with St. Paul, we work out our salvation with " fear and trembling, " that is why we " run so as to win the race. " There are signs of God’s present Grace however. Overcoming serious sin habitually, conquering our passions, the habit of piety, growth in humility, meekness, love of the poor, a vibrant spiritual life, growth in the habit of the virtues. As long as we are absolutely honest with ourselves to acknowledge and confess our sins and root them out, and do the rest, we can trust in the mercy of God. God wants our trust Read the Sinner’s Guide by the Venerabe Louis of Granada.I kind of don’t get the last part of the chapter from the Council of Trent. Does that mean that we cannot be sure that we have received God’s grace? Or have I just read it wrongly? Thanks and God bless.
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, I do, and I posted them above. I know you have limited time and also have a lot of posts to cover. Are you using the “view first unread” each time you come to the thread? This link will keep track of where you left off, and is one of the best tools to prevent missing posts. However if you want me to give you the post numbers, I will find them for you. I would really like to get your perspective on those verse that seem to contradict total depravity.
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guanophore
Guest
Actually I don’t think Calvanists see it that way. The way it was explained to me is that the elect person, upon hearing the Gospel, is quickened by grace and regenerated, and because they have been regenerated by grace, the are then able to repent and be baptized.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, OldProf,
You are more then wlecomed…
Actually, in this post I provided some solid answers via the Catholic Church in the form of even more links! 
I took a good like at your Baptist site and here is my response:
Hi, OldProf,
Far be it from me to criticize a link because of how it explains itself … but, this first link you gave me to the ‘Founders’ of the Baptist religion – seriously, these guys are all over the place. There are actually two major divisions that are a historical wonder 1.) one group claims to come from the 16th Century revolt and 2.) the other claims that they were the original church handed down by Christ in the 1st Century! Here’s a link you may find of interest. I mention this because you say you get at least part of your ideas on Free Will from the Baptists – but, even those in revolt could not agree if Christ died for all men or He only died for the Elect!
Seriously, with such a range, aiming is not a requirement – just pull the trigger and one can claim that you have hit on a Baptist belief! Here is a link: wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_founded_the_Baptists
So, this first link presents 5 items that represent (some) Baptist’s beliefs on Free Will and I will do my best to briefly discuss each. Once I have finished with this exercise – it’s your turn … and you can try and handle the web site links I sent you…
Item #1 – Candidly, I found it odd these guys did not begin God’s creation of man with Genesis (here is a link: usccb.org/bible/genesis/2 ) rather than Deuteronomy. Can you shed some light on what honestly appears to be a profound oversight.
I think the take home message of Genesis 1, 2 & 3 is that God created all in Perfection, created man in His Image, told man not to eat from the tree and if he did he would die. What is noteworthy is that God treats man with respect and lays all out before him. The presence of man being able to choose is apparent. The devil tempts our First Parents and, unfortunately, they sin. The Baptist author seems to agree with this idea.
And this seems to be congruent with Item #1 as identified by this Baptist site.
Item #2 – While man was created in a state innocence, the Baptist seem to think man was created in an ‘unstable’ condition. There really isn’t any evidence to support a claim of being unstable – at least none that I am aware of prior to them disobeying God. And, it is at this point that your source picks up Genesis 3. The omission of God creating our First Parents in a state of perfect harmony is worrisome - at least to me, because it simply fails to acknowledge man’s creation status.
Item #3 – is where the hook lies – the idea of so-called ‘total depravity’ is simply not true. According to this view – man is totally incapable of doing anything objectively good in a natural sense. This does not mean that man has the capacity to save himself from sin – this was done once for all (‘Sheep’ and everyone else…) by Christ. Here is a link that provides some biblical quotes refuting this total depravity argument: socrates58.blogspot.com/2012/10/total-depravity-are-non-elect.html We were all conceived in sin, born in sin and have sinned of our own Free Will – no one forced me to sin – I did it by myself. All the devil did was tempt me – but, it was my use of my Free Will to choose sin rather than cooperate with the Grace of God to avoid evil.
Item #4 – unfortunately continues to miss the point! Your author states, “When God converts a sinner, and brings him out of sin into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin and, by His grace alone, He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good.” The impression I got from reading this is that, God has essentially let the captive bird out of the cage and now it is free from sin’s bondage.” While flying around in the free air and not in the cage may be a release from bondage for the bird – until man is free of this ‘…mortal coil…’ he can still choose to disobey God. And this is something that the author simply refuses to acknowledge. (If you have not looked at that last link I sent – please do so now. It really will clarify a number of things.
Item #5 – I am in total agreement with that item. If fact, since I was in agreement with Items 1 & 2, this means that I have a 40% agreement factor with your Baptist writer.
Ultimately, I think you will need to go back and tinker with the ‘total depravity’, ‘AofS’ and ‘OSAS’ ideas - do not really form any knid of model using the New Testament (if you give me the link, I will post it).
God bless
You are more then wlecomed…
Actually, in this post I provided some solid answers via the Catholic Church in the form of even more links! I took a good like at your Baptist site and here is my response:
Hi, OldProf,
Far be it from me to criticize a link because of how it explains itself … but, this first link you gave me to the ‘Founders’ of the Baptist religion – seriously, these guys are all over the place. There are actually two major divisions that are a historical wonder 1.) one group claims to come from the 16th Century revolt and 2.) the other claims that they were the original church handed down by Christ in the 1st Century! Here’s a link you may find of interest. I mention this because you say you get at least part of your ideas on Free Will from the Baptists – but, even those in revolt could not agree if Christ died for all men or He only died for the Elect!
Seriously, with such a range, aiming is not a requirement – just pull the trigger and one can claim that you have hit on a Baptist belief! Here is a link: wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_founded_the_Baptists
So, this first link presents 5 items that represent (some) Baptist’s beliefs on Free Will and I will do my best to briefly discuss each. Once I have finished with this exercise – it’s your turn … and you can try and handle the web site links I sent you…
Item #1 – Candidly, I found it odd these guys did not begin God’s creation of man with Genesis (here is a link: usccb.org/bible/genesis/2 ) rather than Deuteronomy. Can you shed some light on what honestly appears to be a profound oversight.
I think the take home message of Genesis 1, 2 & 3 is that God created all in Perfection, created man in His Image, told man not to eat from the tree and if he did he would die. What is noteworthy is that God treats man with respect and lays all out before him. The presence of man being able to choose is apparent. The devil tempts our First Parents and, unfortunately, they sin. The Baptist author seems to agree with this idea.
And this seems to be congruent with Item #1 as identified by this Baptist site.
Item #2 – While man was created in a state innocence, the Baptist seem to think man was created in an ‘unstable’ condition. There really isn’t any evidence to support a claim of being unstable – at least none that I am aware of prior to them disobeying God. And, it is at this point that your source picks up Genesis 3. The omission of God creating our First Parents in a state of perfect harmony is worrisome - at least to me, because it simply fails to acknowledge man’s creation status.
Item #3 – is where the hook lies – the idea of so-called ‘total depravity’ is simply not true. According to this view – man is totally incapable of doing anything objectively good in a natural sense. This does not mean that man has the capacity to save himself from sin – this was done once for all (‘Sheep’ and everyone else…) by Christ. Here is a link that provides some biblical quotes refuting this total depravity argument: socrates58.blogspot.com/2012/10/total-depravity-are-non-elect.html We were all conceived in sin, born in sin and have sinned of our own Free Will – no one forced me to sin – I did it by myself. All the devil did was tempt me – but, it was my use of my Free Will to choose sin rather than cooperate with the Grace of God to avoid evil.
Item #4 – unfortunately continues to miss the point! Your author states, “When God converts a sinner, and brings him out of sin into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin and, by His grace alone, He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good.” The impression I got from reading this is that, God has essentially let the captive bird out of the cage and now it is free from sin’s bondage.” While flying around in the free air and not in the cage may be a release from bondage for the bird – until man is free of this ‘…mortal coil…’ he can still choose to disobey God. And this is something that the author simply refuses to acknowledge. (If you have not looked at that last link I sent – please do so now. It really will clarify a number of things.
Item #5 – I am in total agreement with that item. If fact, since I was in agreement with Items 1 & 2, this means that I have a 40% agreement factor with your Baptist writer.
Ultimately, I think you will need to go back and tinker with the ‘total depravity’, ‘AofS’ and ‘OSAS’ ideas - do not really form any knid of model using the New Testament (if you give me the link, I will post it).
God bless
G
guanophore
Guest
I don’t see how this follows. Yes, the Scriptures needed to be fulfilled, but Jesus used plenty of people to fulfill His mission that cannot be considered the Elect. We see the Sanhedrin court, Pilate,Herod, etc. All these people participated in His sacrifice of Himself. There was no need for Judas to be one of the sheep/elect.
John 6:69-71
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? Yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot, for he, though one of the twelve, was going to betray him.
Jesus chose Judas to be one of the 12, knowing that he would betray Him, and knowing that Judas would have to be replaced by Matthias. Where does Jesus ever claim Judas as a sheep,
I think you are assuming that all of the 12 must, by definition, be the elect. I don’t think this is true.
Yes, all Israel is called, and all the world is called, but calling does not equate to election. The elect are only those who answer the call. Judas never did answer the call (to faith in Christ), He became a disciple (at least outwardly) and one of the 12, but his heart was never surrendered to Christ, nor was He regenerate.
This is why Jesus dissmissed him prior to instituting the Eucharist, and washing the feet of the Apostles. He did not take part in that ministry.
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guanophore
Guest
This is a big hangup for me too.
:whacky:
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, there are many ways to have assurance that we are in a state of grace. The increase of the fruit of the Spirit is one. The Aposlte also writes::I kind of don’t get the last part of the chapter from the Council of Trent. Does that mean that we cannot be sure that we have received God’s grace? Or have I just read it wrongly
2 Peter 1:4-10
5 For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, 7 and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and are increasing among you, they keep you from being ineffective and unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For anyone who lacks these things is short-sighted and blind, and is forgetful of the cleansing of past sins.
So much for “faith alone”.
The other issue is that we must not presume upon the judgement of God. We can follow all the commandments, and do all that is in our power to remain in a state of grace, but there are aspects of our own hearts that we do not even know.
1 Cor 4:4-5
5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.
This statement of Trent is saying that we must not make assumptions about our standing before God, because we cannot see ourselves as He does.
B
brb3
Guest
Her answer is better than yours … both both answers need to be qualified by the FACTS of the Gospel.
Christ promises that ALL who place faith in Him, and take up Cross and follow Him to the end … will see the Kingdom. Its a two part proposition for us.
Protestants tend to emphasize Step 1, Catholics tend to overly-emphasize Step 2. [by teaching that a SINGLE unconfessed mortal sin [on our last day] precludes entrance into the Kingdom].
B
brb3
Guest
Many times I have fallen back into unconfessed sin for a brief period … of weeks to months]. Always however, I am recovered to my senses … and in due time I fully repent and again am restored to full fellowship & cross-bearing.
If I had died during these times of spiritual neglect not spiritual rejection, by any stretch of events ] … would these unconfessed mortal sins have sealed my fate and confinement to Hell ?
I believe every Reborn Christian has fallen back many times … only to be recovered by Christ and the Church Triumphant Saints. All our great saints had their weak moments … and were recovered to higher ground. I think that is the norm for us all … but, I could be wrong.
Correct me … if I’m wrong in my viewpoint. I’ve been wrong before …
If I had died during these times of spiritual neglect not spiritual rejection, by any stretch of events ] … would these unconfessed mortal sins have sealed my fate and confinement to Hell ?
I believe every Reborn Christian has fallen back many times … only to be recovered by Christ and the Church Triumphant Saints. All our great saints had their weak moments … and were recovered to higher ground. I think that is the norm for us all … but, I could be wrong.
Correct me … if I’m wrong in my viewpoint. I’ve been wrong before …
G
guanophore
Guest
Is there anywhere in the Bible such a question is posed? I can’t recall any.
We are to be at peace with all, in as much as we are able.But it is best to do this in a manner that retains our integrity, and does not misrepresent our faith. It might have been better just to tell her the truth, that you were frustrated, tired, and wanted to go to bed.I told her that I hope to go to Heaven, but that this decision was up to God and not me. She then told me that ‘We need to rely on God’s promises because He told us that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.’ I tried to explain to her in a kind way that we are not saved by faith alone and explained to her my position on assurance of salvation, but she continued to ask me over again. Finally, she asked me again. It was 11:30 PM, I was tired, somewhat frustrated, and I wanted to go to bed, and so I just smiled and said ‘Most certainly!’ and then she let me off.
So my questions are:
Thanks and God bless!
- Did I do anything wrong by saying that I had assurance of salvation just to get out of my mother’s questioning, even though I didn’t mean it?
- How do I calm my mother fears about me ‘being saved’ and ‘being sure you’re going to Heaven’ while staying true and explaining to her the Catholic Church’s teachings?
I am sure you are right, and she has the best of intentions.
I would not concern yourself with your mother’s fears. Live a solid Catholic life, and the fruits of your spirit will be convincing enough. You can say to her “I love Jesus, and want to live with Him in heaven for eternity”. And there are other things you can say that will make evangelicals understand, such as I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. At each Mass, we invite Jesus into our hearts when we participate in Eucharist. These kinds of statements can be truthfully made without getting into conflict about “assurance”.
For Catholics, “believe” means obey, so it is more than a matter of assenting and choosing. It includes running the race to the end.
B
brb3
Guest
I base my Two Step Salvation, on a full reading of Romans 1-9.
Here Paul seems to acknowledge his [and the Romans] failures … that need to constantly be identified by an ‘examination of conscience’ , confessed, and overcome.
I never get the sense that Paul [or the other Apostles] fully mastered the flesh & sin … from their Gospel writings. Nevertheless, they repeatedly teach SALVATION ASSURANCE … provided we don’t give up, lose hope, or determine that confession is no longer necessary.
Here Paul seems to acknowledge his [and the Romans] failures … that need to constantly be identified by an ‘examination of conscience’ , confessed, and overcome.
I never get the sense that Paul [or the other Apostles] fully mastered the flesh & sin … from their Gospel writings. Nevertheless, they repeatedly teach SALVATION ASSURANCE … provided we don’t give up, lose hope, or determine that confession is no longer necessary.
G
guanophore
Guest
Someday when I have nothing to do, I am going to create a collection of every example of conditional language I can find. It seems like the AoS folks disregard anything that says “if”.
Rom 11:21-22
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you,** provided you continue **in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
O
OldProf
Guest
Remember God’s mercy? Read Ephesians 2. Clearly, Jesus saves His people - those sinners given to Him by the Father.
But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” Matthew 1:20-21
Angel, who are “his people”?
The answer is easy enough.
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
That’s Jesus speaking in John 6:37,44,65. And notice how Jesus prays just before being arrested. He first prays for His disciples, and then He says,
24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:24-26
Paul says,
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. Ephesians 1:4
Paul says,
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Paul, in his final letter, says of God,
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 2 Timothy 1:9
Bottom Line: Jesus provided atonement for a specific group - God’s Elect.
Regards, OldProf
B
brb3
Guest
Paul is referring here to the judgment upon the Jews who have rejected Christ, and God’s favor being shown to the Gentiles. Paul is talking in broad ethnic terms here.
For 2000 years since, the Gentiles have remained in God’s favour. Clearly many individual Gentiles have not been kind … but, in the main the Gentiles have honored God, via worship and acceptance of Christ … and we have continued to receive the favour of God.
O
OldProf
Guest
So you are saying that an unbeliever can do a righteous work? I would disagree. Only a believer can do righteous works. And only that through God’s grace. Paul writes,
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:1-10
Those are verses worthy of serious thought and consideration. If we understand just how grave sin really is, we must be grateful that God shows His mercy to ANY sinner.
Regards, OldProf
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