Assurance of Salvation

[OldProf]

I think it best to give him the benefit of the doubt. He goes by “OldProf” so who knows, he may be a Veteran, and may have family time or ceremony this weekend.

Yes, I am a Veteran. Yes, it was a busy weekend. And I felt maligned in this thread.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Exodus 20:16

This 9th commandment (8th per RCC) means you should not tell lies about someone.

15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Ephesians 4:15-16

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. Colossians 4:6

Paul’s instruction to Christians that we speak the truth in love with graciousness. This also means the Christian should not tell lies about someone, which is bearing false witness.

Those were my impressions of Posts #689 by jcrichton and #699 by tqualey.

I think those posting on this web site CAN do better than those posts with regards to following a biblical standard of decorum. But what happens when we disagree? Sure, we can disagree on theology, to a point. Were not Peter and Paul in disagreement at least once? Afterall, do we not live in a sinful world? But let’s not misrepresent someone. Let’s be careful of that. I was misrepresented, and when that happens, I will speak up about it as I did.

But I have limits to how “angry” I get, and if angry, I’ve found it better to take a break, reconsider, recognize the possibility of miscommunication and misunderstanding on my own part, and give people the benefit of doubt. I’ve read all the posts by jcrichton and I have not done as good of a job answering them as I should. And tqualey has a sense of humor I can appreciate, and I have done a better job answering him. So my initial hard feelings on Saturday have dispersed.

So I’m back. I remember my elementary teachers saying, “Play nice!” Sage advice.

BTW, you will know if I leave this thread. I won’t just disappear and leave people wondering what happened. That seems to be the coward’s way out.

Regards, OldProf

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I am a Veteran. Yes, it was a busy weekend. And I felt maligned in this thread.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Exodus 20:16

This 9th commandment (8th per RCC) means you should not tell lies about someone.

No one told any lies, but there was some speculation about your absence. After I posted that, I went to read your profile and confirmed that you are a Veteran.

  15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Ephesians 4:15-16

What was said was the truth, we often do see people disappear here. I am glad that this is not what happened to you.

We also have a tendency to gang up on people like a pack of wolves, so sometimes a lone proponent of Protestant vies gets piled on.

 Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. Colossians 4:6

I did not mean to be ungracious, and I apologize if that is how it came across. I stand by what I said, however. I don’t see anything in your posts that would lead me to believe that you are open to the Catholic faith as an option for yourself. Of course, it would be just ducky if I found out I was wrong on that point.

Were not Peter and Paul in disagreement at least once?

Yes, but it was not a point of doctrine.

 

[adrift]

We also have a tendency to gang up on people like a pack of wolves, so sometimes a lone proponent of Protestant vies gets piled on.
.

Indeed, it is why I haven’t posted just backing off and let others. I am sorry that you have felt maligned. I doubt that anyone intended that.

 

[Ian1968]

From what I understand, in the RCC you can loose your salvation if you commit a mortal sin. You must be in the state of grace when you die to be saved. That is what I have learned from the Catechism I got when I was 14 years old. It was called Life in Christ.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

The term Assurance of Salvation I have heard more often in common with Protestant Churches. I know that in Protestant Churches there are those who are Calvinists who believe that they are Predestined ahead of time for salvation and therefore can never loose their salvation. Also there are those who believe in what is called Eternal Security. They believe that once they have accepted Jesus as their savior and become born again that they are permanently saved, and also cannot loose their salvation. Then there are the Arminians who believe that if they loose their faith only then can they loose their salvation. At least this is what I’ve come to understand.

I hope this helps.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

Glad to see you have returned … getting concerned about you…

Now, I have a well developed imagination … but, I found it hard to believe you launched into this wounded heart approach (with another abundance of scripture) to let us know that you are alright… I would have sworn that you would have immediately jumped into the task at hand and clear out this backlog of challenges to ‘AoS’.

Being an old vet myself (Army '72-'75) it is easy to let some things pile up while quickly dispatching others … But, enough of this ‘schmoozing’ … I think there are several of us who have demonstrated near heroic patience in waiting for your responses. Please, do not disappoint us.

God bless

Yes, I am a Veteran. Yes, it was a busy weekend. And I felt maligned in this thread.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Exodus 20:16

This 9th commandment (8th per RCC) means you should not tell lies about someone.

15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Ephesians 4:15-16

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. Colossians 4:6

Paul’s instruction to Christians that we speak the truth in love with graciousness. This also means the Christian should not tell lies about someone, which is bearing false witness.

Those were my impressions of Posts #689 by jcrichton and #699 by tqualey.

I think those posting on this web site CAN do better than those posts with regards to following a biblical standard of decorum. But what happens when we disagree? Sure, we can disagree on theology, to a point. Were not Peter and Paul in disagreement at least once? Afterall, do we not live in a sinful world? But let’s not misrepresent someone. Let’s be careful of that. I was misrepresented, and when that happens, I will speak up about it as I did.

But I have limits to how “angry” I get, and if angry, I’ve found it better to take a break, reconsider, recognize the possibility of miscommunication and misunderstanding on my own part, and give people the benefit of doubt. I’ve read all the posts by jcrichton and I have not done as good of a job answering them as I should. And tqualey has a sense of humor I can appreciate, and I have done a better job answering him. So my initial hard feelings on Saturday have dispersed.

So I’m back. I remember my elementary teachers saying, “Play nice!” Sage advice.

BTW, you will know if I leave this thread. I won’t just disappear and leave people wondering what happened. That seems to be the coward’s way out.

Regards, OldProf

 

[guanophore]

From what I understand, in the RCC you can loose your salvation if you commit a mortal sin.

While it is true that mortal sin separates the soul from God, it is not quite accurate to say one can “lose” salvation. This is because we do not attain salvation in this life. We enter a state of grace at baptism, and we are working out our salvation throughout this life, but so long as we are in the body, we can turn away from God, and fail to be united with the inheritance that is kept in heaven for us. So it is not really accurate to say we have “lost” it when it has not yet been attained.

You must be in the state of grace when you die to be saved. That is what I have learned from the Catechism I got when I was 14 years old. It was called Life in Christ.

It is a good start!

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Jcrichton,

Let me address one item in your post - a concern for those who may come later and get the impression that the Church has not real and valid argument against ‘AoS’ or ‘OSAS’.

First of all, your concern is valid and should be addressed. And, I think part of that address is to place the material in context. Reading certain posts and skipping entire pages of others is a real possibility - especially when there are 1,000 posts to consider and the topice really do weave in and out at the direction of some very strong personality types who are writing the posts. Only reading posts from certain people and omitting posts from all others is another posssibillity for coming up with a less then representative view of what has actually taken place on the thread.

But, such types of errors are not limited to the internet and posts and any on-line material. There are people out there who read the Bible and claim that Baptism is not necessary for salvation, that Jesus did not literally give us His Flesh to eat, that men do not have the God delegated power to forgive sin - and even that Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity - or that there even is a Trinity! People will get the wrong idea from anything - and ultimately, presenting the Truth is all we can do. If they miss it from us then they may catch it from someone else - and if they miss it from everyone, it really is God Who will judge us all.

Religion is a truly unique discipline. Honest. Have you noticed that there are not 30,000+ competing versions of Chemistry’s Periodic Table? Nope. Just one Periodic Table - and from time to time new elements are discovered - but, the Table has withstood time and change very well. No one really argues that the mathmatical symbol of pi has an unending set of digits - and there are not thousands of competing answers for the total value of pi. We have seen the development of astronomy - and the changes that have taken place in our lifetime … I’m old enough to remember when there were 9 planets! But, no one is challenging the existence of stars and galaxies and that the size of space has not been determined. Religion, however, is up for grabs - ranging from the denial of God to the claim that certain ones are chosen for salvation and others for damnation and it does not make any difference what either of them do!

That people come away from Truth with error(s) seems to be the human experience. That people do not like what Christ said, so they change the meaning so as to dismiss lthe clearly written words - apparently can not be avoided as long as we have Free Will.

Secondly, my idea is that we all have an obligation to present the Truth as we understand it - to be open to the concerns of others and to dialogue with those who present different ideas. What makes Catholic dialogue is that there is access to the Source of All Truth - that no Catholic doctrine has been found in error or that any matters of faith have been changed. For example, this past week three states approved same sex ‘marriage’. Since the founding of the Catholic Church, homosexual behavior has always been considered to be inherently disordered. Look at all of the groups that essentially said the same thing just 100 years ago - and how they have changed, claiming such behavior is acceptable because they want to do it. That error will persist can not be denied - which errors will gain popularity over Truth is an on-going statee of affairs.

All we can do is pray that the Truth of God will prevail in all hearts.

God bless

Hi, Tom!

I fully agree with you… that’s why I continue to respond, offering Scriptures and a different understanding, even when the thread has eroded into a circular argument… the problem with error is that some equate having the last word (or screaming the loudest) as being correct (ie: same sex issues are hammered in from all sorts of angles till people capitulate–something that the Church can’t ever do)… so when people post (or engage me personally) insisting that the Church is in error… I, as well as all genuine Catholics, must respond!

But I know that ultimately prayer is the best I can do as Christ Himself has already foretold that if He was rejected, the world will also reject His Disciples!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, I am a Veteran. Yes, it was a busy weekend. And I felt maligned in this thread.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Exodus 20:16

This 9th commandment (8th per RCC) means you should not tell lies about someone.

15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. Ephesians 4:15-16

Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person. Colossians 4:6

Paul’s instruction to Christians that we speak the truth in love with graciousness. This also means the Christian should not tell lies about someone, which is bearing false witness.

Those were my impressions of Posts #689 by jcrichton and #699 by tqualey.

I think those posting on this web site CAN do better than those posts with regards to following a biblical standard of decorum. But what happens when we disagree? Sure, we can disagree on theology, to a point. Were not Peter and Paul in disagreement at least once? Afterall, do we not live in a sinful world? But let’s not misrepresent someone. Let’s be careful of that. I was misrepresented, and when that happens, I will speak up about it as I did.

But I have limits to how “angry” I get, and if angry, I’ve found it better to take a break, reconsider, recognize the possibility of miscommunication and misunderstanding on my own part, and give people the benefit of doubt. I’ve read all the posts by jcrichton and I have not done as good of a job answering them as I should. And tqualey has a sense of humor I can appreciate, and I have done a better job answering him. So my initial hard feelings on Saturday have dispersed.

So I’m back. I remember my elementary teachers saying, “Play nice!” Sage advice.

BTW, you will know if I leave this thread. I won’t just disappear and leave people wondering what happened. That seems to be the coward’s way out.

Regards, OldProf

OldProf, I apologize if you feel maligned by my words; but I cannot apologize for making observations as the exchanges take shape; you have issued challenges and have used demeaning language, perhaps it has not been your intent… but I have felt it… you have also ignored every post that negates your systematic theology… being an under class (not a scholar/theologean) I employ heavy use of language to cause a person to stop and think… but there’s no anger or hatred imparted… general speculation may cause bad feeligs to arise but if you check my posts you will find that no ill was ever promoted against you… though I may be younger than you, I have had many encounters with people who have stated, to my face, that I lack Faith, knowledge, understanding… and that when I’m ready to learn about God they would gladly return to help me–this after hours of exchanges where I’ve never raised my voice nor used abusive/demeaning language; as to my intent, my conscience is clear.

I cannot promise you that I will ignore your posts, specially when you sound off with “RC” this or that… infallible this or the other… or the CCC “xy;”

I will, however, make an attempt to make my replies as bland as possible so as not to offend your sensibilities…

…since you’ve posted some Biblical quotations… let’s not forget: “do on to others…”

Maran atha!

Angel

PS: …if you feel you need to check my claims, I can search this thread for the various incidents and group them for you.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Indeed, it is why I haven’t posted just backing off and let others. I am sorry that you have felt maligned. I doubt that anyone intended that.

I also took some time away from the thread. I also join in apologising if we came on too harsh.
Peace

 

[Ubenedictus]

Ok, can we go back to the topic at hand. It’s still assurance of salvation folks and i will be happy to see how OldProf views our explanations.

 

[OldProf]

I have never heard of this term until you posted it. It is not in Catholic thought. I do no accept it. It is inaccurate in what I believe.

No this is not accurate.
Here from the Catholic Dictionary is what I believe

Only God can give grace. He allows us a free will to either accept or reject it.

Of course there is a contradiction. You claim that no matter what you do you are saved you don’t need to do good works but that isn’t scriptural. Exactly what part of your list shows good works?

I read your tedious links. We can not judge what happened to Judas. We have some indications but only God can judge. That he was once a follower and believer cannot be disputed. I am reposting the following perhaps you missed it.

Your misinterpretation of the sheep is what is causing you to not understand. Your links were opinions some I agreed with others:shrug: This is a parable. A parable teaches a spiritual lesson. Who was Jesus talking to? The Jews. They were not understanding Him. They were not understanding that He is the Way. They wanted to know if He was the savior. He used the parable to answer them.

The only teaching is from the bible. That he was an apostle and he betrayed Jesus. Our theologies are different. That is why you speak in a way that is foreign to me. I do know that you can loose salvation as long as the race isn’t over. You have provided nothing to dispute this.

Adrift, I have been wanting to provide a response to your #648 post (28 Oct 12) for awhile now. There are a few items we got sidetracked on that should be put to rest and I doubt I’ll want to further comment on them.

1. Synergism:

Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics that believe a person can have salvation (born again with spiritual life, therefore a Christian, a follower of Jesus) and then sin such that they lose their salvation (mortal sin that destroys sanctifying grace is the way the RC Priest and former Dean of Theology I studied with described it in 1997), die in that state, and spend eternity in hell, are synergists. Man cooperates with God for their eternal salvation. “God did His part, now I have to do mine.” is the comment I have heard on several occasions.

This idea does not agree with what I feel is a clear exegesis of several Scriptures that indicate that Jesus’ followers (the elect) will never perish, that God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that nothing “… in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:39)

That includes our “free will.” A believer has the mind of Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and a sin nature. You would expect good works interspersed with sinful acts/thoughts that make you feel guilty so you confess them. Paul and James compliment each other (Romans 3:28; James 2:24). Good works testify to living faith and are part of God’s plan for the elect (Eph 2:10; James 2:17).

You asked where that was in my list. It is OBEDIENCE in Evidence List 2. (Enough said on synergism)

1. Judas:

Your comment, “I read your tedious links.” is one I can understand. I’ve spent a lot of time reviewing and working through them in my witnessing efforts (books and articles and websites from atheists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc.), but, it is beneficial in the end to understand them. In this case, realize it as an opportunity to see a reasoned argument put forth to defend the position that Judas was never a believer. Yes, I know about Acts 1:17 - but when you think about Judas’ actions as one of the 12 within that ministry (stated in the Gospels and Acts), and the further insights provided by John MacArthur’s sermons, a reasonable case is made that Judas was not ever a believer, and that he went to hell. (Enough said on Judas)

1. Jesus “The Good Shepherd” Parable or metaphor?

It’s a metaphor and theologically stronger than a parable. A few metaphors in John 10 are:

The Good Shepherd = Jesus
Sheep = Jewish Believers
Other Sheep = Gentile Believers (won’t get into the erronious Mormon view on this)

Because shepherding was so well known in Jewish history and thought, it is the perfect metaphor or imagery for Jesus to use to communicate his message to the Jewish audience in the temple.

You say, “Your misinterpretation of the sheep is what is causing you to not understand.” Do you agree that the sheep in the metaphor are what I say above? Or is it that the Greek is so strong on those sheep never (never = not now or at any future time) perishing that I apparently misunderstand? Please clarify what I misunderstand about the sheep.

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

While it is true that mortal sin separates the soul from God, it is not quite accurate to say one can “lose” salvation. This is because we do not attain salvation in this life. We enter a state of grace at baptism, and we are working out our salvation throughout this life, but so long as we are in the body, we can turn away from God, and fail to be united with the inheritance that is kept in heaven for us. So it is not really accurate to say we have “lost” it when it has not yet been attained. … It is a good start!

Not actually “saved” in this life? Consider:

John 6:35-40

Context: Jewish audience in a synagogue at Capernaum (John 6:41; John 6:59)

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

It seems that all that the Father gives to the Son are saved in this life. These would be those chosen by God (Colossians 3:12-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), the elect (1 Peter 1:1-2), the sheep in John 10.

If in the beginning they are the chosen, the elect, the sheep - are they really not saved in this life?

Here’s a truth: We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

Oldprof how is you ar able to repent of your sin(s). Are you forced to out of fear of loss in this life? Or do you it out of love for God? How are you to judge which reason for repentance is satifactory to God?

It is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? (1 Corinthians 6:19)

When 1 Corinthians 6:19 says the Holy Spirit is in you, it is describing a personal relationship rather than a physical location. Thus to say that the Holy Spirit is in you is not to point out where the Holy Spirit is physically located, but rather to point out that we have come into a special, intimate, personal relationship with Him through repentance. Similarly, when Jesus says, “the Father is in me, and I in the Father” (John 10:38), He is not speaking of physical location but intimacy of relationship.

Thy words have I hidden in my heart, that I may not sin against thee. (Psalm 119:11)

I like Bible study and biblical ideas and verses pop into mind all the time. It’s a great help. Plus, Christian’s “have the mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16)

So, we know when we sin and we’re grieved about it, as is the Holy Spirit. We pray to the Lord and ask forgiveness, and we know this:

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Regards, OldProf

 

[OldProf]

It seems u are stuck in justification. ok,

it seems in essence u are saying all that happened in the old testament were all bad. I dont believe that. Yes i believe we were born spiritually dead i.e separated from the source of spiritual life and so unless aided by God we cannot do right. i would prefer if you were specific, the work OF THE LAW couldnt accomplish righteousness it comes by faith. And james let me know that faith is active by works and completed by same jm2:23. After faith the shuld come that which activates and completes. Abramham is justified by faith and by his work according to same faith his faith is completed.

yeah!

the qestion is, is man totally ignorant and is he in some form of intoxication wen grace works in him?

Ubenedictus, I’m not sure if some of my subsequent posts have answered any of this for you. I see the faith of Abraham et. al. (see Hebrews 11) as handling the Old Testament Saints, and I do not have any problem with James - a faith that is not accompanied by good works is a dead faith to which I agree.

In a Christian, we should see their Faith through their Good Works. I provided the two evidence lists for that. To be obedient to God’s Word means to keep the commandments, love your neighbor, help the widows, help the poor, etc. We are to tell people about Jesus and give them a reason for the hope that is in us, even earnestly contend for the faith (1 Peter 3:15; Jude 1:3).

Justification. I have studied this a lot. I have several entire books just addressing this doctrine, and the systematic theology texts all have generous sections on it. I am trying to stick with AoS which I do not think requires a deep study of justification to discuss.

For your last question, the biblical answer is that the spiritually dead man (or woman) needs resurrection power. He needs life. He is born physically alive but spiritually dead. He needs to be born again spiritually. That is what God’s grace does for the Elect. That is the work that God begins in those He chooses, and His work will come to a good conclusion (Philippians 1:6).

Jesus is the author and finisher (or perfecter) of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).

It’s all about God. “We love Him because He first loved us.” (1 John 4:19)

With the verses I have given, I’m pretty sure the charge “OldProf is taking these out of context” won’t hold. But, if I am, then by all means show me the errors of my ways. I will, in all sincerity, thank you for it.

Regards, OldProf

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OldProf,

At the risk of sounding tedious… please define your understanding of an individual person’s Free Will.

Based on my understanding of Free Will - it is totally incompatable with ‘AoS’ and ‘OSAS’ material. I think once the differences are lined up, it will be much easier to actually address this thread clearly.

Oh, and my understanding of Free Will is the Gift of God that he has given to men and to angels that they can choose to worship God or not. Angels had one chance at making the correct choice, while humans have many. I can only chose God if I freely choose to cooperate with His Grace. I can only chose self (and the Devil who is promoting this illusion) by totally relying on my own abilities and refusing to cooperate with God. This power of Free Will remains with humans until death. Once a soul faces God, their Free Will is ‘frozen’ in the direction that we chose: facing towards God or facing away.

This definition is totally and absolutely opposed to ‘AoS’ and ‘OSAS’.

So, please, let’s get started.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

 I have been wanting to provide a response to your #648 post (28 Oct 12) for awhile now.

Yay! Adrift was not the only one waiting, as I think you know.

There are a few items we got sidetracked on that should be put to rest and I doubt I’ll want to further comment on them.

Party pooper!

1. Synergism:

Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics that believe a person can have salvation (born again with spiritual life, therefore a Christian, a follower of Jesus) and then sin such that they lose their salvation (mortal sin that destroys sanctifying grace is the way the RC Priest and former Dean of Theology I studied with described it in 1997), die in that state, and spend eternity in hell,

This actually not entirely accurate. One cannot “lose” that which they have not yet attained. Catholics embrace the Apostolic teaching that we are placed in a state of grace at baptism, work out our salvation during our life here on earth, and are judged at the time of death. It is at the judgement that salvation is attained, and not before.

are synergists. Man cooperates with God for their eternal salvation. “God did His part, now I have to do mine.” is the comment I have heard on several occasions.

Yes, but I think this is a poor way of expressing the doctrine. Cooperation with grace means that we work together with the grace that has been placed in us, so that grace can accomplish in and for us all that God desires. I think that most Catholics are poorly catechized on this point:

Phil 2:12-13
… work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

There is a world of difference between working “on” and working “out”. The working “out” is what Reformed Christians understand as the process of sanctification. Catholics don’t separate sanctification from justification as our separated brethren do.

This verse in Phil. describes how synergism is meant to work, that we yield to the grace of God that is at work in us, so that His Spirit can accomplish the transformation of our will and our deeds.

Rom 6:13-14
13 No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness.

It is our duty (work) to present our members to God. We have a choice whether we will walk by the Spirit, or walk by flesh.

2 Peter 1:4-8
5 For this very reason, you must make every effort to support your faith with goodness, and goodness with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with endurance, and endurance with godliness, 7 and godliness with mutual affection, and mutual affection with love.

This is our effort, but it is not separated from the grace of God that is at work within us to will and to do His good pleasure. Poorly catechized Catholics are often not well connected to that grace and the power that is in us so they “work on” instead of “work out” salvation. They fall into human effort, rather than yielding to the power that is at work within.

Eph 2:7-11
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Most evangelicals will stop reading at v. 9, but Catholics include v. 10 (along with all the rest of the Scriptures) in how we understand salvation. We believe that we are saved by grace, through faith, but this salvation is FOR the good works that have been prepared for us. Saving grace is not separated from the good works that accompany it. I think this is one point in which we are in agreement.

 

[guanophore]

This idea does not agree with what I feel is a clear exegesis of several Scriptures that indicate that Jesus’ followers (the elect) will never perish, that God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that nothing “… in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:39)

This confusion of God’s love with salvation is a major flaw in AoS theology. God loves everyone He creates. He loved us before we were saved, and will love people even as they choose to walk through the gates of hell.

The Apostles taught that it is not “finished” in this life, so from that point of view, we are in agreement on the rest. God is the author and finisher, and those who continue in Him will never perish. Those who choose not to continue in Him will perish.

2 Tim 2:12
if we deny him, he will also deny us;

Reformed theologians like to base their soteriology on the Pauline Epistles, but Catholics understand that all the Scriptures have something relevant to say about salvation. We also have our notion of salvation informed by John:

Rev 3:5-6
5 If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life; I will confess your name before my Father and before his angels.

Why would Jesus make mention of blotting names out of the Book of Life it if were not possible to do so?

Good works testify to living faith and are part of God’s plan for the elect (Eph 2:10; James 2:17).

That is why we don’t separate the faith that saves from the faith that works. Saving faith is faith that works. It is not so much a matter of faith + works as faith that works. It is a certain quality of faith that produces the good deeds for which the person was saved. Or as the Apostle says:

Gal 5:6
… the only thing that counts is faith working through love.

Not faith + works, but faith working through love. That is Catholic synergism.

  It is OBEDIENCE in Evidence List 2. (Enough said on synergism)

I think we would agree that we cannot be obedient without the Spirit working in us to will and to do His good pleasure.

2. Judas:

In this case, realize it as an opportunity to see a reasoned argument put forth to defend the position that Judas was never a believer.

I have to agree with you on this point. I am sure Judas believed in something, but I don’t think it was what Jesus was trying to get him to understand. I honestly think that he betrayed Jesus because he thought he would restore the Kingdom to Israel.

 You say, "Your misinterpretation of the sheep is what is causing you to not understand." Do you agree that the sheep in the metaphor are what I say above? Or is it that the Greek is so strong on those sheep never (never = not now or at any future time) perishing that I apparently misunderstand? Please clarify what I misunderstand about the sheep.

Regards, OldProf

I think you have it right about the sheep. Jesus is pretty clear that the sheep belong to Him, and the goats don’t. Taken by itself, I think this is a strong support for your view. We do not take this metaphor in isolation, though. We believe that Hebrews is written to the sheep, and it is quite clear in that writing that those who belong to God can fall away.

 

[guanophore]

Not actually “saved” in this life? Consider:

John 6:35-40

Context: Jewish audience in a synagogue at Capernaum (John 6:41; John 6:59)

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

It seems that all that the Father gives to the Son are saved in this life. These would be those chosen by God (Colossians 3:12-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), the elect (1 Peter 1:1-2), the sheep in John 10.

If in the beginning they are the chosen, the elect, the sheep - are they really not saved in this life?

Here’s a truth: We love Him because He first loved us. 1 John 4:19

Regards, OldProf

Yes, we would be in agreement that salvation begins at a certain point in time (for us it is Baptism). We are justified by grace, through faith. We believe that Baptism is regenerative (saving) and anyone who died right after baptism is saved. We are saved in this life, every day that we walk with Him.

2 Cor 2:14-15
15 For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved

1 Cor 15:1-2

Now I would remind you, brothers and sisters, of the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, 2 through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you — unless you have come to believe in vain.

As we are walking in the saving grace of our baptism,we are “being saved”. Salvation is not just attained at the end of life, but every day of our lives. He wants to bring eternity right into our day to day experiences. The Kingdom (reign) of God is for here and now, as well as for there and then.

And yet there are aspects of salvation that we have not yet attained:

1 Cor 3:14-15
15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matt 10:22-23
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Acts 15:11
11 On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

For these aspects of salvation we must cross the finish line. If we drop out of the race, we will not be united with the inheritance kept imperishable for us in heaven.

 

[guanophore]

For your last question, the biblical answer is that the spiritually dead man (or woman) needs resurrection power. He needs life. He is born physically alive but spiritually dead. He needs to be born again spiritually. That is what God’s grace does for the Elect. That is the work that God begins in those He chooses, and His work will come to a good conclusion (Philippians 1:6).

Catholics will agree that human beings are born into a state separated from God, and that we need resurrection power to become spiritually alive. However the Apostles did not teach total depravity, and the Scriptures make it clear that we are not “dead” but wounded. Being dead in our trespasses and sins does not erase the image of God in which we are created, or our innate desire to seek after Him to find Him.

Acts 17:24-28
The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things. 26 From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and** he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him **— though indeed he is not far from each one of us. 28 For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said,
‘For we too are his offspring.’

Here the Apostle is saying that human beings are created with a desire and drive to “grope” for God to find Him. The Gk. here reflects a person in a dark place with hands out in front feeling for something. This desire to find God is still alive and well even in those who are dead in their sins. And the Apostle goes on to say that in Him we live and move and have our being. The very stamp of his nature is in us.

It’s all about God. “We love Him because He first loved us.” (1 John 4:19)

Since you know this, how can you assume that HIs love equates to salvation? You know that whole we were yet sinners He died for us. And you also agree that not all will be saved. So the fact that we can’t be separated from His love has nothing to do with whether we will ultimately be saved.

Mark 10:20-24
“Teacher, I have kept all these since my youth.” 21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

23 Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!”

Jesus loved him, but He let the man walk away. That is how it is with all of us.

 

[jcrichton]

Adrift, I have been wanting to provide a response to your #648 post (28 Oct 12) for awhile now. There are a few items we got sidetracked on that should be put to rest and I doubt I’ll want to further comment on them.

1. Synergism:

Roman Catholics and non-Roman Catholics that believe a person can have salvation (born again with spiritual life, therefore a Christian, a follower of Jesus) and then sin such that they lose their salvation (mortal sin that destroys sanctifying grace is the way the RC Priest and former Dean of Theology I studied with described it in 1997), die in that state, and spend eternity in hell, are synergists. Man cooperates with God for their eternal salvation. “God did His part, now I have to do mine.” is the comment I have heard on several occasions.

This idea does not agree with what I feel is a clear exegesis of several Scriptures that indicate that Jesus’ followers (the elect) will never perish, that God is the author and finisher of our faith, and that nothing “… in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:39)

That includes our “free will.” A believer has the mind of Christ, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and a sin nature. You would expect good works interspersed with sinful acts/thoughts that make you feel guilty so you confess them. Paul and James compliment each other (Romans 3:28; James 2:24). Good works testify to living faith and are part of God’s plan for the elect (Eph 2:10; James 2:17).

You asked where that was in my list. It is OBEDIENCE in Evidence List 2. (Enough said on synergism)

1. Judas:

Your comment, “I read your tedious links.” is one I can understand. I’ve spent a lot of time reviewing and working through them in my witnessing efforts (books and articles and websites from atheists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc.), but, it is beneficial in the end to understand them. In this case, realize it as an opportunity to see a reasoned argument put forth to defend the position that Judas was never a believer. Yes, I know about Acts 1:17 - but when you think about Judas’ actions as one of the 12 within that ministry (stated in the Gospels and Acts), and the further insights provided by John MacArthur’s sermons, a reasonable case is made that Judas was not ever a believer, and that he went to hell. (Enough said on Judas)

1. Jesus “The Good Shepherd” Parable or metaphor?

It’s a metaphor and theologically stronger than a parable. A few metaphors in John 10 are:

The Good Shepherd = Jesus
Sheep = Jewish Believers
Other Sheep = Gentile Believers (won’t get into the erronious Mormon view on this)

Because shepherding was so well known in Jewish history and thought, it is the perfect metaphor or imagery for Jesus to use to communicate his message to the Jewish audience in the temple.

You say, “Your misinterpretation of the sheep is what is causing you to not understand.” Do you agree that the sheep in the metaphor are what I say above? Or is it that the Greek is so strong on those sheep never (never = not now or at any future time) perishing that I apparently misunderstand? Please clarify what I misunderstand about the sheep.

Regards, OldProf

…plain: as you remove yourself from Christ by committing yourself to sin you cease being an “elect”/“sheep” and you become one of the branches that are removed from the Vne and you will be burnt!

It is true that well-wishing people can come up with many forms of exegesis… but none can compete with Christ’s Word:

3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. (St. John 15:3-6)

Jesus’ Promise is not “eternal security/salvation” for those who claim it; Jesus Promise is that those who remain in Him so that He may Remain in them are granted Salvation!

Maran atha!

Angel