G
guanophore
Guest
Being so steeped in the model which you have espoused, it may be difficult or impossible for you to see that Calvin’s theology does appear this way to those who were brought up in the Apostolic faith. Calvin’s God is quite different than the God that was revealed once for all to the Church through Jesus Christ.
This is quite true. Most Catholics find you “systematic theology” quite foreign and incomprehensible. It is a foregone conclusion that there will be widespread ignorance among those who have never been exposed to it.
It may be a matter of how we conceive of Glory to God. You see, those who have espoused the Apostolic faith with regard to soteriology have an entirely different framework on a crucial set of doctrinal issues, such as the nature of man, the nature of God, the purpose of Christ’s incarnation, etc. We are taught that God is glorified in us, and those who have been formed in Eastern Christianity also espouse the theosis, which flies mightily in the face of you systematic theology.
One thing I learned debating Reformed Christians on these threads is that a non-biblical set of categories are created and projected into the text. One example of that is found here, called the “true” believer. It has been necessary to impose this category onto the text to make all the passages fit with the “systematic” model (preconceived notions).
That being said, Catholics will have no argument that jesus will preserve and perfect the elect.
“Systematic” theology interprets many verses that are given in the future tense as though they are written in the present tense (another tidbit I learned here at CAF). Some verses must be removed from their context, as you have thoroughly demonstrated in this thread.
Phil 1:6-7
6 I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the day of Jesus Christ.
Calvanists claim that this is “proof” of irresistable grace and perseverance. Indeed God is ready, willing, and able to perfect and complete the good work he had begun in us. Our cooperation with His grace,though, is part of His plan. He does not perfect those who are unwilling to be perfected. This verse is the opening of a letter addressed “to the saints”. When a person chooses to depart from the saintly life, the work does not get completed. This is what the Aposltes meant by falling from grace.
It is clear that we understand them differently when we read them. You read them with your Calvinistic spectacles, while Catholics read them through the lens of what the Apostles believed and taught (Sacred Tradition). Since we are wearing very different lenses, we interpret them differently.
It is not that we “pass them by”, but we are obligated to read the Scriptures as a whole inseparable garment. We cannot take the liberty that you do to separate these verses from 1) The Jewish faith upon which they rest 2) the rest of the NT of which they are a part or 3) the Sacred Tradition that produced and preserved them.
I do see that your arguement has a solid Scriptural foundation. I understand how you get there. We don’t have the liberty to jettison the Apostolic teaching that was deposited once for all to the Church. That is why we can’t go there with you. We have an Apostolic command to preserve what has been divinely revealed to mankind and infallibly preserved in the Church.
Personally I have not seen any evidence of this. Although it would be considered a work of evil to depart from the Apostolic faith, in my experience, most people steeped in “systematic theology” as you seem to be have very good intentions, and moral lives that are much closer to the intentions of Christ than most of those who claim to be Catholic. It is also true that most modern day Protestants have no idea about the history of their faith, and are completely unaware that they have embraced positions considered heretical by the Apostles and their successors.
Just a word to the wise, OldProf, this statement has a tone that leads one to think that the 'better" persons can do on this board is to come over to your position. The forum rules strictly prohibit the exercise of such “agenda” posting. CAF is not a venue for you to convert those Catholics you perceived to be misguided.
Now, you may view that as a personal opinion - but, it appears as you really do not take our concerns and criticism seriously for you really do dismiss it and then send out another multitude of quotes in an effort to refute our arguments. The snag with this approach is that merely digging in your heels and repeating (even in different words) the same thing you have already said - WHILE NOT specifically answering the criticism really does appear to be evasive. Now, that is my opinion and may or may not be shared by anyone else. And, if you want proof of this statement - just look at the post you provided below: you have called the poster a liar and ignorant … and that is really uncalled for.
It seems to me you are bearing false witness. “OldProf continues his avoidance of every single Scriptural passage that demonstrates that God is not a God of whim that will force some into Salvation while damning others just on caprice” is simply false. Furthermore, this comment demonstrates your ignorance of systematic theology and what it purposes to do in teaching and dealing with God’s inspired Word. Anyone reading this thread knows I’ve dealt with many verses that have been brought up and I’ve sought Glory to God in His works and choices.
When both you and I read what is written - we come up with a different view … so, it is eithe one of two possibilities: 1.) the text is unclear or 2.) we are not comprehending the text. (I can’t think of any other alternative - can you?)
) and will begin my program with this insightful bit of humor. Thanks for sharing.
