Assurance of Salvation

[tqualey]

Hi, Angel,

This is not an insignificant issue. It gives one pause to have some of the ‘Sheep’ bleating, “I’m saved and you’re not … and some who claim to be ‘Sheep’ are also lost! I am soooooooo glad to be an RS (“Real Sheep”)!!” And, here is one of the reasons I think this is so:

For the first 400 years in the history of the Catholic Church, there was no Bible as we have it today (the Canon of Sacred Scripture is one of the major Gifts of God to the World and He did this through the Chruch Christ founded on Peter.

For the next 1,200 years we have the Church defining and explaining the meaning of Scripture - and doing so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so there is no error.

The we have Luther, Calvin and the rest of those in revolt claiming that they knew better then God - and left the Church claiming that they knew the way to salvation. Just look at the anarchy they managed to create then and in the 500 years that followed.

God bless

Hi, Tom!

Thank you for your kind words!

…it’s confusing, to say the least… specially when someone state that they have en massed a huge library that includes Church history… I’m not versed in Church history, but did she not hold that Arainism was a heresy, along with OSAS and its derivatives?

…when searching out the Truth, how can one selectively reject everything that disproves a teaching that is totally opposed to nearly 16 centuries of Christian Teaching?

…and even if we were to attempt “sola” Scriptura… how is a person seeking the Truth not convicted by the Sacred Scriptures that they claim to hold as the final Word?:

…how can anyone earnestly claim that one is eternally saved when Jesus Himself, time and again, Teaches that His Disciples must remain steadfast to Him and His Teaching–that to do otherwise the cares of the world will snatch their hearts and minds away from God and that they will not be able to persevere till His Parousia?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[paul_c]

…sorry Paul c… I think you’ve just set the bar waaaaay too high… what with Scriptural Obedience and Believing Christ’s Word… and not holding on to man’s self-determined means of Salvation (for the elect) and damnation (for all who are not lucky to be part of the elect)… then you try to scare people into thinking that there’s a complex means to Salvation set by Christ (His Mystical Body and the Sacraments He Instituted)… are you purposely trying to Save all of mankind? (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

Maran atha!

I take it that this is sarcasm but I must admit, your first two sentences confused me.
You know, These are just the concepts put forward by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians.

 

[paul_c]

Hi, Angel,

This is not an insignificant issue. It gives one pause to have some of the ‘Sheep’ bleating, “I’m saved and you’re not … and some who claim to be ‘Sheep’ are also lost! I am soooooooo glad to be an RS (“Real Sheep”)!!” And, here is one of the reasons I think this is so:

For the first 400 years in the history of the Catholic Church, there was no Bible as we have it today (the Canon of Sacred Scripture is one of the major Gifts of God to the World and He did this through the Chruch Christ founded on Peter.

For the next 1,200 years we have the Church defining and explaining the meaning of Scripture - and doing so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so there is no error.

The we have Luther, Calvin and the rest of those in revolt claiming that they knew better then God - and left the Church claiming that they knew the way to salvation. Just look at the anarchy they managed to create then and in the 500 years that followed.

God bless

This is so true. Why do people find Luther or Calvin or Joseph Smith more credible than the Catholic Church, which clearly can show its doctrines and hierarchy originated with Jesus and the Apostles? What would they chose a tradition and a set of doctrines that clearly originated with the founders of their denominations? I guess the answer is obvious enough. They chose their faith based on their own desires. In the end though, the truth will not change to fit our desires. We must change our desires to fit the truth. Only then can we be truly fulfilled.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Paul c,

In my opinion, the answer to your question lies in a lack of Faith on the part of those involved in the 16th Century revolt. There may have been the expectation of perfection from those who served as pope - and not only was this (unrealistic) goal not realized - but, there was genuine public scandal. Let’s not be timid or gloss over public sin - real scandal was spread - and its effects, I think, are with us to this very day. But, here is where the lack of Faith comes in -

Here we have boastful and vain and profoundly humiliated Peter returning to the Ten - finding out that Judas was dead - and wondering if the Ten would accept him back after denying Christ 3x. And, yes they did accept Peter - and, I think, the Ten were humiliated by their cowardice by running away from the mob in the Garden. All were guilty of not standing with Christ - as they claimed they would do. All were weak - just in different ways. All - except Judas - sought forgiveness. So, if there was anyone standing on the outside and examined these Apostles - the conclusion could have been easily and correctly been drawn that all of them were weak and sinful - yet, for some Divine Reason - Christ had chosen each to follow Him and be the very center of His Church founded on Peter.

As I see it, those in revolt lost Faith - not in men but in Christ - to be able to pull His Church out of the public scandal it found itself in. Real Reformers - like St. Catherine of Siena - were able to bring weak and sinful Church leaders back to serving Christ as they should. And, going back through the 1,600 years that preceeded the revolt we find many, many instances where greed, immorality, a desire to create novel doctrine and perversion were present in the Church - and real reform was necessary as seen in the many Church Councils. Here is an interesting link: dailycatholic.org/history/councils.htm

Those in revolt not only lost Faith but lost a sense of history - and then with what appears to be incredible hubris, established their own doctrines apart from Christ and His Church. Right now we are looking at the human tradition of ‘AoS’, but this is really built on ‘Individual Interpretation of Scripture’. And, the common element here is that all the ‘Sola Scriptura’ folks fail badly at just taking the words of Scripture and applying them as such. Items that they disagree with they simply interpret in the way that they want them to be - and, so it is (or, at least that is the claim)!

Accepting that Christ founded His Church on Peter meant that they would have to accept the leadership of a public sinner giving grave scandal in his personal life. To accept this leadership would mean that they had Faith in the Holy Spirit to guide Christ’s Chruch through all storms - and, by both word and deed they denied such a Faith.

But, now comes a mechanical snag. While they were unimpressed with the public life of the pope, they now sought to be their own pope - and apparently others thought they could be their own pope, too. Things quickly got out of the control of those in revolt for others were now revolting from them and having the chutzpah to spin off more novel doctrine. And interesting item is how Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Knox all disagreed with one another in material ways - except that they determined the Church founded by Christ was wrong!

God bless

This is so true. Why do people find Luther or Calvin or Joseph Smith more credible than the Catholic Church, which clearly can show its doctrines and hierarchy originated with Jesus and the Apostles? What would they chose a tradition and a set of doctrines that clearly originated with the founders of their denominations? I guess the answer is obvious enough. They chose their faith based on their own desires. In the end though, the truth will not change to fit our desires. We must change our desires to fit the truth. Only then can we be truly fulfilled.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Angel,

This is not an insignificant issue. It gives one pause to have some of the ‘Sheep’ bleating, “I’m saved and you’re not … and some who claim to be ‘Sheep’ are also lost! I am soooooooo glad to be an RS (“Real Sheep”)!!” And, here is one of the reasons I think this is so:

For the first 400 years in the history of the Catholic Church, there was no Bible as we have it today (the Canon of Sacred Scripture is one of the major Gifts of God to the World and He did this through the Chruch Christ founded on Peter.

For the next 1,200 years we have the Church defining and explaining the meaning of Scripture - and doing so under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so there is no error.

The we have Luther, Calvin and the rest of those in revolt claiming that they knew better then God - and left the Church claiming that they knew the way to salvation. Just look at the anarchy they managed to create then and in the 500 years that followed.

God bless

Hi, Tom!

Exactly!

…even when they claim to hold on to Scriptures only… they do quite a poor job of it since they leave out (ignore) anything that they deem unnecessary (One Baptism, One Body, One Gospel, One Faith, One Holy Spirit…); it seems that St. Paul had it wrong… that God is not a God of order but of chaos! :doh2:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I take it that this is sarcasm but I must admit, your first two sentences confused me.
You know, These are just the concepts put forward by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians.

I’ve tried everything else… so I thought that a little play on the issue might shake something loose and couse a “pause, and listen” moment before the old tricks take hold again… can you imagine the novelty of God wanting all to be Saved? …it must be nerve wracking to think that everything that one has come to understand/believe is based on the rejection of Christ’s Church by those who took it upon themselves to make themselves God’s authority… what is totally incomprehensible to me is that most of what is claimed is purported to come straight from Scriptures and yet Scriptures do not support their claims… and more perplexing still is their inability to accept even Christ’s Word when He Challenges their theology!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This is so true. Why do people find Luther or Calvin or Joseph Smith more credible than the Catholic Church, which clearly can show its doctrines and hierarchy originated with Jesus and the Apostles? What would they chose a tradition and a set of doctrines that clearly originated with the founders of their denominations? I guess the answer is obvious enough. They chose their faith based on their own desires. In the end though, the truth will not change to fit our desires. We must change our desires to fit the truth. Only then can we be truly fulfilled.

…hence the thirty thousand plus reformations on the “reformation!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Paul c,

In my opinion, the answer to your question lies in a lack of Faith on the part of those involved in the 16th Century revolt. There may have been the expectation of perfection from those who served as pope - and not only was this (unrealistic) goal not realized - but, there was genuine public scandal. Let’s not be timid or gloss over public sin - real scandal was spread - and its effects, I think, are with us to this very day. But, here is where the lack of Faith comes in -

Here we have boastful and vain and profoundly humiliated Peter returning to the Ten - finding out that Judas was dead - and wondering if the Ten would accept him back after denying Christ 3x. And, yes they did accept Peter - and, I think, the Ten were humiliated by their cowardice by running away from the mob in the Garden. All were guilty of not standing with Christ - as they claimed they would do. All were weak - just in different ways. All - except Judas - sought forgiveness. So, if there was anyone standing on the outside and examined these Apostles - the conclusion could have been easily and correctly been drawn that all of them were weak and sinful - yet, for some Divine Reason - Christ had chosen each to follow Him and be the very center of His Church founded on Peter.

As I see it, those in revolt lost Faith - not in men but in Christ - to be able to pull His Church out of the public scandal it found itself in. Real Reformers - like St. Catherine of Siena - were able to bring weak and sinful Church leaders back to serving Christ as they should. And, going back through the 1,600 years that preceeded the revolt we find many, many instances where greed, immorality, a desire to create novel doctrine and perversion were present in the Church - and real reform was necessary as seen in the many Church Councils. Here is an interesting link: dailycatholic.org/history/councils.htm

Those in revolt not only lost Faith but lost a sense of history - and then with what appears to be incredible hubris, established their own doctrines apart from Christ and His Church. Right now we are looking at the human tradition of ‘AoS’, but this is really built on ‘Individual Interpretation of Scripture’. And, the common element here is that all the ‘Sola Scriptura’ folks fail badly at just taking the words of Scripture and applying them as such. Items that they disagree with they simply interpret in the way that they want them to be - and, so it is (or, at least that is the claim)!

Accepting that Christ founded His Church on Peter meant that they would have to accept the leadership of a public sinner giving grave scandal in his personal life. To accept this leadership would mean that they had Faith in the Holy Spirit to guide Christ’s Chruch through all storms - and, by both word and deed they denied such a Faith.

But, now comes a mechanical snag. While they were unimpressed with the public life of the pope, they now sought to be their own pope - and apparently others thought they could be their own pope, too. Things quickly got out of the control of those in revolt for others were now revolting from them and having the chutzpah to spin off more novel doctrine. And interesting item is how Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and Knox all disagreed with one another in material ways - except that they determined the Church founded by Christ was wrong!

God bless

Hi, Tom!

…I’ve highlighted your final statement to emphazise that, from my perspective, that continues to be the *modus operandi *of most non-Catholic Christians–which boils down to obedience… or rather the lack thereof (as attested to by St. Catherine as she truly worked with the Holy Spirit to bring forth a reformation of Christ’s Church)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

I must say, after a reading of 1st & 2nd Peter…his topic is EXCLUSIVELY devoted to warning the Christians THEN AND HENCEFORTH, to strive mightily to not allow themselves to be PULLED BACK into the Secular World, and FORFEIT their Salvation.
Saying, if the Righteous are BARELY SAVED, there is a fearful prospect of HellFire for the unrepentant ‘lapsed’ unrighteous Christian.

So, not one iota of support for OSAS in the CHIEF APOSTLE’s written farewell to the Church, just before his anticipated martyrdom.

 

[jcrichton]

I must say, after a reading of 1st & 2nd Peter…his topic is EXCLUSIVELY devoted to warning the Christians THEN AND HENCEFORTH, to strive mightily to not allow themselves to be PULLED BACK into the Secular World, and FORFEIT their Salvation.
Saying, if the Righteous are BARELY SAVED, there is a fearful prospect of HellFire for the unrepentant ‘lapsed’ unrighteous Christian.

So, not one iota of support for OSAS in the CHIEF APOSTLE’s written farewell to the Church, just before his anticipated martyrdom.

…it is the saddest part of the OSAS and their derivatives… they claim direct Scriptural proof of their confused theology while simultaneously ignoring or rejecting every single passage that proves them wrong… they use super chinese acrobatics to direct those passages at the “unBelievers only.” :crying::crying::crying:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

…it is the saddest part of the OSAS and their derivatives… they claim direct Scriptural proof of their confused theology while simultaneously ignoring or rejecting every single passage that proves them wrong… they use super chinese acrobatics to direct those passages at the “unBelievers only.” :crying::crying::crying:

Maran atha!

Angel

But, in fairness to them, I too once espousing OSAS myself, … Protestants will always take words of Christ over what the apostles taught. And, we know that powerful, ABSOLUTE statement of Christ supporting His ability to RETAIN ALL the Christians the Father had given Him.

Now, how is any Catholic every gonna be able to refute OSAS, against Christ’s claim ? Unless, we elsewhere in scripture show Christ speaking to this topic, and perhaps further explaining himself, making more clear what is the Truth, on this enigma.

 

[jcrichton]

But, in fairness to them, I too once espousing OSAS myself, … Protestants will always take words of Christ over what the apostles taught. And, we know that powerful, ABSOLUTE statement of Christ supporting His ability to RETAIN ALL the Christians the Father had given Him.

Now, how is any Catholic every gonna be able to refute OSAS, against Christ’s claim ? Unless, we elsewhere in scripture show Christ speaking to this topic, and perhaps further explaining himself, making more clear what is the Truth, on this enigma.

…but that’s just it, Christ makes no such OSAS/AOS claims… quite the contrary:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that bears no fruit he cuts away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes to make it bear even more. 3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. 8 It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit and be my disciples. 9 I have loved you just as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. (St. John 15:1-10)

Clearly, Jesus is not refuting God’s Omnipotence or His Ability to Keep the sheeps/Christians Safe or that in Him, Christ, there’s Eternal Salvation… but Christ is warning that even though His Disciples are Saved and have been enjoined to the Kingdom (you are clean already) they must still remain in Jesus and they must Obey His Commandments!

Had Jesus been a promoter of OSAS/AOS He would have no reason to state that His Disciples are cleaned (Saved) yet must remain in Him and must Obey His Commandment–Jesus would have simply congratulated them on being Eternally Saved!

So while none questions God’s Ability to Keep the sheeps/Christians Safe and while none argues that not a single sheep/Christian can be removed from God’s Hand, OSAS/AOS falls short of its premise when the “Free Will” of the sheep/Christian is exercised… it is against free will that Christ warns us about since any Believer can (and have) choose to ignore God’s Will and submit to his/her own will:

25 ‘There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; on earth nations in agony, bewildered by the turmoil of the ocean and its waves; 26 men fainting away with terror and fear at what menaces the world, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand erect, hold your heads high, because your liberation is near at hand.’

34 ‘Watch yourselves, or your hearts will be coarsened by debauchery and drunkenness and the cares of life, and that day will come upon you unexpectedly, 35 like a trap. For it will come down on all those living on the face of the earth. 36 Stay awake, praying at all times for the strength to survive all that is going to happen, and to hold your ground before the Son of man.’ (St. Luke 21:25-28, 34-36)

Jesus is not warning the unBelievers to remain Firm; Jesus is not Commanding the unBelievers to stay the course and live a prayerful life asking for the strength and the ability to remain Faithful to Him! Christ is revealing to the already cleaned Disciples that they must stand firm, remaining loyal to His Commandments, and must live a prayerful existence so that at His Parousia He would find them not only aware of His Second Coming but ready for it, as the good servants that He chose them to Be!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

Not so quick …

Look at John 15:7 …".if you ask anything in my name I will do it( grant it )"

So, if we pray for SA …will Christ not keep his promise to — raise us UP on last day, to Heaven…(.or Hell, if that be our wish and prayer).

 

[jcrichton]

Not so quick …

Look at John 15:7 …".if you ask anything in my name I will do it( grant it )"

So, if we pray for SA …will Christ not keep his promise to — raise us UP on last day, to Heaven…(.or Hell, if that be our wish and prayer).

Firstly, we have to understand that when Jesus makes such blanket statement it falls under the “if it’s God’s Will” production!

I cannot pray that God takes you out or destroys your business/family, etc. an expect that God will exact death, pain and destruction just because I pray that He would!

…now, God may grant my prayer/request that the Holy Spirit enlightens you and Guide you and Bless you (they all reflect the Will of God); but even if I were to ask in such vein the prayer may not get answered in spite of my sincerity becuase you may not be ready to have such intimacy with God… so God, Omniscient as He Is, will Grant only that which will not hinder your development and your present understanding…

So the issue remains: it is not that God is not able to Grant anything or that Jesus is not Eternal Life or that, in Jesus, we are not Granted AOS (none can take it from My Father’s Hand), what really transpires here is is man’s will according to God’s and is man able to remain (stand) loyal to Christ (“remain in Me”)?

It is this factor that presents OSAS/AOS with the inherent “monkey wrench!”: Eternal Salvation is for the asking (“I am the Resurrection and the Life…”); but when we ask, we must ask in the Father’s Will ("…not everyone that says to Me Lord… but the one that does the Will of the Father.") and the Father Wills that we Look to Jesus and Listen to Him!:

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch – and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. (St. John 15:5-7)

Quoting Scriptures is easy… even the Devil quoted them! Believing God exists and has a Plan in Motion is also quite reasonable and generally known–even demons recognized Jesus as the Just One of God and they feared He Came too soon to exact Judgment… the hard part is Humble Obedience! We must put our self (ego) aside and allow God’s Will to be revealed: Salvation is ours, in Christ only–not as a prize that we are given or are able to earn! We can cooperate with God’s Grace and ask for Salvation Assured that Christ is our Salvation or we can deny God’s Grace by rejecting Christ as our Only Savior; the latter can be done not just by denying Christ outright, which is the most direct way, but also by twisting Christ’s Word to mean what He did not Say!:

“I am the Resurrection and Life” cannot ever mean ‘everyone who calls/says Lord, Lord, is granted an automatic OSAS/AOS membership into Heaven!’

…and “I give them eternal life; they will never be lost and no one will ever steal them from my hand” will never ever mean ‘I will Save man against his will since man cannot fight God’s!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[brb3]

Firstly, we have to understand that when Jesus makes such blanket statement it falls under the “if it’s God’s Will” production!

I cannot pray that God takes you out or destroys your business/family, etc. an expect that God will exact death, pain and destruction just because I pray that He would!

…now, God may grant my prayer/request that the Holy Spirit enlightens you and Guide you and Bless you (they all reflect the Will of God); but even if I were to ask in such vein the prayer may not get answered in spite of my sincerity becuase you may not be ready to have such intimacy with God… so God, Omniscient as He Is, will Grant only that which will not hinder your development and your present understanding…

So the issue remains: it is not that God is not able to Grant anything or that Jesus is not Eternal Life or that, in Jesus, we are not Granted AOS (none can take it from My Father’s Hand), what really transpires here is is man’s will according to God’s and is man able to remain (stand) loyal to Christ (“remain in Me”)?

It is this factor that presents OSAS/AOS with the inherent “monkey wrench!”: Eternal Salvation is for the asking (“I am the Resurrection and the Life…”); but when we ask, we must ask in the Father’s Will ("…not everyone that says to Me Lord… but the one that does the Will of the Father.") and the Father Wills that we Look to Jesus and Listen to Him!:

Quoting Scriptures is easy… even the Devil quoted them! Believing God exists and has a Plan in Motion is also quite reasonable and generally known–even demons recognized Jesus as the Just One of God and they feared He Came too soon to exact Judgment… the hard part is Humble Obedience! We must put our self (ego) aside and allow God’s Will to be revealed: Salvation is ours, in Christ only–not as a prize that we are given or are able to earn! We can cooperate with God’s Grace and ask for Salvation Assured that Christ is our Salvation or we can deny God’s Grace by rejecting Christ as our Only Savior; the latter can be done not just by denying Christ outright, which is the most direct way, but also by twisting Christ’s Word to mean what He did not Say!:

“I am the Resurrection and Life” cannot ever mean ‘everyone who calls/says Lord, Lord, is granted an automatic OSAS/AOS membership into Heaven!’

…and “I give them eternal life; they will never be lost and no one will ever steal them from my hand” will never ever mean ‘I will Save man against his will since man cannot fight God’s!’

Maran atha!

Angel

I agree with some of the above, but … your last sentence is absurd, and I don’t think MOST Protestants would hold / promote the idea that God doesn’t respect our Free Will requests.

As Catholics, we strongly believe in Free Will, and that if we orient our wills to that of the Father ( as revealed in Sacred Scripture … and properly explained by the Church), that we can MERIT salvation, provided we PERSEVERE, in fully-graced Daily living, as the Church teaches & defines in our CCC.

Now, if a Christian, fully graced, prays the Father to never let them stray from the safety of the GOOD SHEPHERD & FLOCK …prays this often, weekly, …would not that prayer be pleasing and right, and one the SAVIOR would answer / grant …?..

…and afford that SHEEP, near-certainty of Salvation Assurance …provided they continue to align their Free Will to the Master’s ( which is : " THAT NONE THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM, BE LOST ").

 

[guanophore]

I must say, after a reading of 1st & 2nd Peter…his topic is EXCLUSIVELY devoted to warning the Christians THEN AND HENCEFORTH, to strive mightily to not allow themselves to be PULLED BACK into the Secular World, and FORFEIT their Salvation.
Saying, if the Righteous are BARELY SAVED, there is a fearful prospect of HellFire for the unrepentant ‘lapsed’ unrighteous Christian.

So, not one iota of support for OSAS in the CHIEF APOSTLE’s written farewell to the Church, just before his anticipated martyrdom.

This is well said, brb, and it is one of the main reasons that Calvin, Luther, and their followers refused to reconcile these letters into their theology. Luther seemed to believe that the book of James contradicted Paul’s teaching on justification by faith, and many Reformed Christians on this board over the years have educated me that some Reformed seminarians are taught that that the pastoral letters are written to Jews, and do not apply to Christians at all!

That the “doctrines of salvation” are best organized and presented by Paul, and it is to his letters primarily we are to look for a systematic presentation. It is a convenient way to excise the remainder of the NT writings when it comes to understanding our relationship with God.

I was also told by a Reformed theologian that this verse:

Rev 3:5
5 If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the book of life;

Not only does NOT imply that our names can be blotted out, but that the book referenced here has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[guanophore]

…it is the saddest part of the OSAS and their derivatives… they claim direct Scriptural proof of their confused theology while simultaneously ignoring or rejecting every single passage that proves them wrong… they use super chinese acrobatics to direct those passages at the “unBelievers only.” :crying::crying::crying:

Maran atha!

Angel

I was recently told that the letter of James was not written for Christians, but for Jews. I read the whole letter again, and realized how this could happen. There really is no reference within the letter to confirm it should be applied to Gentile Christians as well as Hebrew Christians. The only reason I accept that it was is because the Church testifies to this. Once a person rejects the witness of Sacred Tradition, one can come out all sorts of strange places.

 

[guanophore]

But, in fairness to them, I too once espousing OSAS myself, … Protestants will always take words of Christ over what the apostles taught. And, we know that powerful, ABSOLUTE statement of Christ supporting His ability to RETAIN ALL the Christians the Father had given Him.

Now, how is any Catholic every gonna be able to refute OSAS, against Christ’s claim ? Unless, we elsewhere in scripture show Christ speaking to this topic, and perhaps further explaining himself, making more clear what is the Truth, on this enigma.

No one can snatch us out of His hand, but we can jump out!

Rev 2:5-7
5 Remember then from what you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this is to your credit: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. To everyone who conquers, I will give permission to eat from the tree of life that is in the paradise of God.

What does this mean? Some say it is the light of Christ. How will anyone attain heaven without the light of Christ in their midst?

What does this passage imply about those who do NOT conquer? Will there be eternal life apart from teh tree of life in the paradise of God?

Rev 2:10-11
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches. Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death.

What does this passage imply about those who forsake Christ before death? What happens to those who do NOT conquer?

Rev 2:22-29
2 Beware, I am throwing her on a bed, and those who commit adultery with her I am throwing into great distress, unless they repent of her doings; 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am the one who searches minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call ‘the deep things of Satan,’ to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden; 25 only hold fast to what you have until I come. 26 To everyone who conquers and continues to do my works to the end,
I will give authority over the nations;
27 to rule them with an iron rod,
as when clay pots are shattered —

28 even as I also received authority from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star. 29 Let anyone who has an ear listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

What does this passage say about those who commit spiritual adultery (idolatry/apostasy). Is there anything here that seems to support the idea that the Lord will save them in spite of their apostasy?

Those who have been given to Christ by the Father stay with Christ until the end, and no one snatches them out of His had. That is why the doctrine of perseverance had to be invented.

 

[guanophore]

Not so quick …

Look at John 15:7 …".if you ask anything in my name I will do it( grant it )"

So, if we pray for SA …will Christ not keep his promise to — raise us UP on last day, to Heaven…(.or Hell, if that be our wish and prayer).

Yes, but…

To ask in His name means to ask according to His purpose and will for us. And yes, God desires for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. However, when a person is engaged in mortal sin, their actions show Him how they really feel about him so asking to be saved while they are still breaking His commandments will have little value.

 

[jcrichton]

I agree with some of the above, but … your last sentence is absurd, and I don’t think MOST Protestants would hold / promote the idea that God doesn’t respect our Free Will requests.

As Catholics, we strongly believe in Free Will, and that if we orient our wills to that of the Father ( as revealed in Sacred Scripture … and properly explained by the Church), that we can MERIT salvation, provided we PERSEVERE, in fully-graced Daily living, as the Church teaches & defines in our CCC.

Now, if a Christian, fully graced, prays the Father to never let them stray from the safety of the GOOD SHEPHERD & FLOCK …prays this often, weekly, …would not that prayer be pleasing and right, and one the SAVIOR would answer / grant …?..

…and afford that SHEEP, near-certainty of Salvation Assurance …provided they continue to align their Free Will to the Master’s ( which is : " THAT NONE THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM, BE LOST ").

…not as absurd as the OSAS/AOS’s claim that none can lose Salvation but those that do (get my jest?)!

…what I understand (from the claims of those who ascribe to OSAS/AOS) once their status is achieved it is permanent and incontrovertible… and, specifically, those who uphold Calvinism (which bleeds across the Protestan spectrum) do believe that there’s nothing to be done by those who are predestined to damnation and that those predestined for Salvation are beyond anything but Salvation ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination ).

While it is true that Scriptures speak of Eternal Life/Salvation/Election/Assurance/God’s Omnipotence… to suggest that there’s some special status that Believers can achieve (or are born into) through which their Salvation is Eternally Granted and Assured… well… other than fictitious, it is a clear misunderstanding of Scriptures… Jesus never Taught that there’s some special station/ticket for Believers… rather He Taught that He is that Assurance, Eternal Life, Salvation!

His Disciples in turn never taught that Christians were better off than the unBelieving world… rather, as Christ, they taught that those who have been granted more, more will be demanded of them and that those to whom much has been confided, even much more would be demanded of them–Salvation, my friend, is Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel